Bikinis are immodest - why exactly?

[whatevergirl]

These “weaknesses of one’s self” are universal. We are all infected by Original Sin and its effects. All of us have weaknesses and as St. Paul says, we have to take the weakness of our brothers and sisters into account. If I don’t have a weakness toward excess in alcohol, and my friend does, then I should not drink alcohol if it is a temptation to sin for him. Same for anything. We are Christians called to heroic charity - charity beyond what the “pagans” have, what the world has. But it does not suffice to say, “Oh well that is how they are.” It’s not okay for Catholics especially to dress immodestly just as it is not okay for Catholics to not keep custody of their senses.

Pax Christi tecum.

I wasn’t talking about Catholic women and men. I think that there are Catholic women and men, who fall into the tempation of sin in this area on both sides. But, I think we need to be careful to say…it’s women’s fault that men sin. Perception is reality for each of us. In some of your threads, that is the perception I’m getting from what you are saying here…that’s all. I never said…‘oh well, that is how they are.’

 

[whatevergirl]

I love seeing a great looking woman in a bikini. I fully support her decision.

Sadly, this comment makes my point.

 

[chevalier]

Women should dress modestly, but men should think modestly.

Yes, and it doesn’t even need any gender differentiation. All people should dress modestly and all people should think modestly.

My other observation would be that we’re focusing on the aspect of responsibility for the impression one makes without willing to and the question to what extent one should burden himself with helping others avoid temptation. However, that is just one problem. The other problem is to what extent we can try to be alluring and at what point it stops. A man needs to consider this too, not just a woman. A man too has to think if he isn’t going one button too far or if he isn’t showing off too much.

 

[Litcrit]

Monicatholic, don’t worry, I don’t think anyone will take you to belong to the ‘pro-bikini lobby’ just because you’re arguing for a less extreme position. I didn’t even know there were ‘lobbies’ here, as the reason I started this thread was to have a respectful, charitable chat on cultural differences. But if there are ‘lobbies’, then your position is clear, and, at least by me, respected. I’ve actually said a thanksgiving prayer for you for being concerned about me.

I find myself in the weird position of in some instances fitting what Struggling advocates - at least in what is my personal problem, as noticed by my confessor.

I am a woman who does not want to be feminine or in any way attractive. I’ve always worn baggy, non-form-fitting clothes - usually my grandfather’s. I’ve felt guilty if persuaded by my previously fiance, now husband, to wear high heels or any make-up at all, even if very discreet. I’ve always just wanted to look like a boy.

I’ve always wanted to be appreciated JUST for my intellect and my opinions, and hated thinking any attention was given me because of ‘merely’ my body, and just because I’m a woman. It’s actually ALSO a form of vanity - our minds and intelligence is what’s been given to us as well as our bodies, and wishing to be appreciated for the one or the other or both is equally vain.

I’m also the woman who sometimes wears casual spaghetti straps when it’s hot and a two-piece to the beach (described by someone as not fitting the definition of a bikini, as it actually covers my breasts and makes it possible for me to swim). My two-piece is of a simple shape and black. It’s used for swimming and sunbathing.

As dictated by my culture, and as directed by my confessor, I wear a head covering to church, not to mention a long skirt and covered shoulders.

I wrote all of this just to give a clearer picture of what evil, bikini-wearing, spaghetti-strap sporting women can have in their heads. Maybe even a problem with being feminine. Maybe even the ones you see on your beaches and pools in your culture!

 

[strugglingalong]

I find myself in the weird position of in some instances fitting what Struggling advocates - at least in what is my personal problem, as noticed by my confessor.

I am a woman who does not want to be feminine or in any way attractive. I’ve always worn baggy, non-form-fitting clothes - usually my grandfather’s. I’ve felt guilty if persuaded by my previously fiance, now husband, to wear high heels or any make-up at all, even if very discreet. I’ve always just wanted to look like a boy.

Just as a caveat to what I am not advocating. I’m not saying women should not dress feminine or appear attractive. I think women can dress and appear feminine and attractive without dressing immodestly. I know it happens because I see it every day at Holy Mass. We shouldn’t have to have one without the other, i.e. modesty without dressing attractively.

If being covered at Church is a good thing why wouldn’t it be good to be covered outside of Church?

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[whatevergirl]

Many people who dress immodestly are not Christian…so, they’re at the beach, not at church! Sorry…this thread is making me punchy. :whacky:

 

[strugglingalong]

Many people who dress immodestly are not Christian…so, they’re at the beach, not at church! Sorry…this thread is making me punchy. :whacky:

I don’t think there should be one standard of modesty in Church and another out of Church, as if we can “act good” when we’re “with God” and then act differently outside. The fact is we’re always being watched by God and the standard is the same.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[Litcrit]

I don’t think there should be one standard of modesty in Church and another out of Church, as if we can “act good” when we’re “with God” and then act differently outside. The fact is we’re always being watched by God and the standard is the same.

Pax Christi tecum.

There are different standars or ‘proper’ or ‘occasion-approporiate’ dress.

 

[strugglingalong]

There are different standars or ‘proper’ or ‘occasion-approporiate’ dress.

Yes many standards of what is proper. We’re talking about what is modest. What is modest in God’s sight is modest in and out of church.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[Litcrit]

Yes many standards of what is proper. We’re talking about what is modest. What is modest in God’s sight is modest in and out of church.

.

Hmmm. In my language, there’s not even a word for ‘modest’ as you use it.

The literal translation means ‘not showing off anything - talents, riches, or body, bragging about anything, wearing expensive clothes or jewelry’.

And there’s ‘public decency’ - not wearing what is not appropriate for the occasion. Not covering your head in not decent in church, but it’s decent in the street. Flip-flops and spaghetti-straps are not decent in the courthouse or school, but are decent in informal occasions. Swimsuits of any sort are not decent in the street, but swimsuits of any sort that cover the genitals, behind, and breasts are decent for the beach.

There is the concept of ‘dont’ dress like a slut’, though there is not a word. Everyone knows what it means and what is just made to attract men to lust, but two-piece swimsuits do not fall under this category. Showing more skin does not make men lust more here. The cut and shape of some clothes does. Baring breasts fully does. Wearing a thong to the beach does.

 

[whatevergirl]

I don’t think there should be one standard of modesty in Church and another out of Church, as if we can “act good” when we’re “with God” and then act differently outside. The fact is we’re always being watched by God and the standard is the same.

Pax Christi tecum.

i’m in agreement with you.

 

[peregrinator_it]

Litcrit:

There are different standars or ‘proper’ or ‘occasion-approporiate’ dress.

Yes many standards of what is proper. We’re talking about what is modest. What is modest in God’s sight is modest in and out of church.

There certainly are different standards of dress for different occasions; thus, I would not wear my church clothes to do yard work. But does that mean that the clothes that I do yard work in are immodest because I wouldn’t wear them to church? No.

Modesty and standards of dress are not equivalent things; modesty involves more than just dress; time, culture, and activity affect standards of dress and the “forms that modesty takes” (see CCC 2524.)

It’s when one tries to equate one particular standard of dress with modesty that one risks losing sight of what modesty is.

Hence, I agree with Monicatholic that your particular take on these subjects is not very helpful to those who wish to promote modesty.

(On a different topic, I was disappointed to see that article from NOR; it used to be such a good magazine. I started reading it in the late 80s and stopped three or four years ago because it was getting too fring-ey to be interesting; I had no idea it had gone so far around the bend! Very sad.)

 

[Thinks4Himself]

I’m sorry you were compelled to make such a sad comment.

Pax Christi tecum.

I find nothing sad about admiring a womans figure.

 

[whatevergirl]

I’d like to add something my husband said recently about this type of thing…

He said that he struggled at one time with lingering a stare too long here and there at the beach–his thoughts:

"No matter what a woman is dressed like…she is a child of God, and a daughter to someone, somewhere. Now that I have a daughter, I can see how I wouldn’t want someone to stare at her in a lustful way, even if she was wearing something immodest. But, it’s my job as her dad to teach her humility and modesty in her dress.’ Suffice to say, he really has done a pretty good job of overcoming this sin…although, I’d like to think marrying me had something to do with it.

If we do our jobs as parents to teach our kids, especially daughters, the virtue of modesty…we will see less immodest dress in generations to come. It’s interesting, but studies have showed that girls learn modesty more from their dads’ perspectives of women, than their mothers.’

 

[Fran65]

If we do our jobs as parents to teach our kids, especially daughters, the virtue of modesty…we will see less immodest dress in generations to come. It’s interesting, but studies have showed that girls learn modesty more from their dads’ perspectives of women, than their mothers.’

In addition, we need to teach our boys that women are people to be respected as a human person however they are dressed.
And however they (the women who have dressed that way) regard themselves. A woman’s whole attitude to men and clothes can be changed by a society and men treating her with respect and dignity however she is dressed.

For example I was very pleased and heartened when in my town we had a man convicted and imprisoned for raping a woman who was working (at the time she was attacked) as a street prostitute. The courts and law enforcement agencies clearly did not judge her responsible for her rape and that was (imo) entirely in keeping with being Christian.
Pax
Karen

 

[strugglingalong]

I find nothing sad about admiring a womans figure.

I’m done with this thread but one last comment here. My point wasn’t that the figure is bad. My comment was that allowing every man and woman to gaze at it, potentially lust after it, is bad. The body is so good and holy that it ought only be seen and admired by one - one’s spouse with whom they will be with until they die.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[tvdxer]

There certainly are different standards of dress for different occasions; thus, I would not wear my church clothes to do yard work. But does that mean that the clothes that I do yard work in are immodest because I wouldn’t wear them to church? No.

Modesty and standards of dress are not equivalent things; modesty involves more than just dress; time, culture, and activity affect standards of dress and the “forms that modesty takes” (see CCC 2524.)

It’s when one tries to equate one particular standard of dress with modesty that one risks losing sight of what modesty is.

Hence, I agree with Monicatholic that your particular take on these subjects is not very helpful to those who wish to promote modesty.

(On a different topic, I was disappointed to see that article from NOR; it used to be such a good magazine. I started reading it in the late 80s and stopped three or four years ago because it was getting too fring-ey to be interesting; I had no idea it had gone so far around the bend! Very sad.)

I agree with this. Even if they are immodest (which I would generally say they are), wearing a bikini to the beach isn’t the same as prancing in your underwear in the mall or on the street. People don’t expect to see others wearing so little clothing in those situations; they do on the beach, however. Again, I don’t believe bikinis are modest, but I would also be careful about judging the intentions of women who wear them. I haven’t spent much time in the women’s swimwear section lately, but I would assume a large (maybe half or more) part of most stores’ women’s swimwear inventories are comprised of bikinis and similarly immodest outfits. I seriously doubt most girls buy these with the explicit intention of arousing men on the beach (those who know otherwise, please speak up). Most probably just think they are “cute” and feel little guilt in buying them because their friends do the same.

One thing I do find ridiculous and annoying however, even outside my Catholic moral judgment, is how in some touristic areas women (and often men as well) feel no inhibition wearing their bikinis or swimsuits off the beach and on the streets, into stores, etc. Come on!

 

[GraceDK]

I don’t wear clothing with the intent to arouse men. I’m not going to hide behind layers of cloth because some men can’t keep their eyes to themselves. Seriously, I think there are plenty of women who wear bikinis without expecting to attract men (and I usually don’t).

Anyone who says every woman who wears a bikini for the mere purpose of arousal needs to stop judging. You don’t know the motives of every woman on this board or in the world. Some of us are of different cultures and backgrounds and may have a different interpretation of modesty than others. ** For me, I don’t believe the mere exposure of skin counts. I believe modesty is much more an attitude than how much is too much**.

Exactly
Actually… all this talk about bikinis… almost makes me want one for myself

 

[JimG]

Exactly
Actually… all this talk about bikinis… almost makes me want one for myself

Well, there should be some good sales going on about now!

 

[Alexandra]

I’m in my 50s but I clearly remember a cartoon that was in MAD Magazine when I was a young person. Girl goes to her friends house in the summer and everyone is swimming. She has forgotten her swimsuit and her friend tells her to borrow one of hers from her dresser. Girl puts on bikini and goes down to the pool. No one looks at her at all. Friend asks which drawer she got bikini from. Girls tells her and is then told, “That’s not a swimsuit that’s my underwear!” wherein everyone suddenly is eyeing her with googly eyes. Why is it immodest to wear underwear in public, but not an identical swimsuit at the pool?