Bikinis are immodest - why exactly?

[mbd1475]

This is meant to be funny and cause introspection rather than offense, but in my experience those most concerned with modesty tend to be (1) male perverts (read: high school principals) or (2) fat females (read: insecure housewives with too many cats).

 

[monicatholic]

Karen/ Fran,

I’ve spent some time considering the CCC quote you offered. My only quibble is with its application.

There are more (in quantity) and more specific tenets that adress modesty, though the idea of common good ***is ***relevant. . In fact, the men on this board have attested that misuse of fashion freedom has been a detriment to the common good.

On several of these threads, the modesty lobby has been accused of wanting to see women clothed from head to toe. That’s an obvious misrepresentation of the general pro-modesty perspective and seemingly designed to argue a significant inequality in the pro-modesty argument.

Two thousand years ago, Paul approached a similar social dilemma concerning food restrictions and personal freedoms. Note that his acceptance of his weaker brethern exhibits no sense of disgust or resentment-- only understanding and charity.

If we substitute the food restrictions with modesty issues we women might then charitably listen to our Christian brothers describe the burden of their weakness-- i.e., the visual nature of their sex drives. We women might be motivated-- out of Christian charity-- to be more responsible with our beauty. We might be moved to increase our demonstrations of modesty.

*Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak.

For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, won’t he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols?

So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge.

When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.* 1 Cr 8: 9- 13)

Catholic men already have a tremendous responsibility in our EU/ US cultres. These men are my brothers in Christ. It is my responsibility to help them attain virtue. Our fashionable modesty will remind them to discipline their eyes. Our fashionable modesty will let them know they’re supported in their struggle to chastity.

 

[Litcrit]

LitCrit,you’ve posted several threads on modesty issues. You seem especially agitated by this topic. With this post, I don’t wish to provoke bad feelings. I’m interested in clarification.

I’m not agitated in the least. I was just surprised by some of the things I’ve seen in other threads in these forums (like bikinis are immodest, spaghetti straps are immodest). These statements are strange to me. They are foreign to the milieu I was brought up in, what my parents and grandparents and their friends did, everything I know from my surroundings. I’m trying to understand why people think that way.

You posted some interesting stats.

I wasn’t the one who posted the stats. But I did thank the one who posted them, because it started seeming to me that maybe Europe is just morally inferior, period, and that explains the differences. But the stats made me feel better. We’re not, after all, the worst at everything

The US is a violent society. There’s no arguing that. Too many mothers on these boards would never dream of letting their kids outside unattended. But violence isn’t the issue you opened with. We are also divorce fanatics. While there is a connection between sexual morality and divorce, that’s also not at central issue.

Modesty was your topic-- more specifically, immodesty.

Not a mention was made to posted pics of the volleyball team describing ***just how ***were those suits modest. Using an already posted photo, I asked specifically about it, though nobody engaged the question-- only contentions-- i.e., “I thought it was modest.” Then please describe-- what makes it modest? If half her behind is modestly visible, how much more would make it immodest?

All of it? As in a thong? I’ve seen topless girls wear just those, but I wouldn’t, because in my culture id does excite men and it’s not deemed proper. Don’t be mad at me, I’m honestly trying to answer your questions, the best way I can. Seriously, I have never seen a woman or a man at any beach with more coverage of the behind. Really.

Still, aside from the central issue and in response to my complaint that European ‘progressiveness’ is hardly a model of virtue, you posted some interesting statistics on European sexual morality. Those statistics were intended to defend against criticisms of Europe’s moral reputation

I wasn’t the one who posted the stats.

The statistics, likewise made you feel better that Europe wasn’t, in fact, the moral sewage of the world. I didn’t use the phrase ‘moral sewage’ and it seemed fairly dramatic for you to defend Europe from the charge when the charge wasn’t leveled. Are you contending, LitCrit, that Europe is not in an accelerated moral decline? We American Catholics know the US is.

I know you didn’t use those words, no one did. I wasn’t addressing you or anyone else. I responded to the stats the way I did because I felt a bit relieved, to be honest, because I personally was beginning to think that Europe was a moral sewage.

I believe some things get better, some get worse, some just get more out in the open in the moral history of any continent.

However, it’s no secret that European abortion rates are down and European teen pregnancy rates are down. but Europe’s overall conception rate has tanked. That italy is paying women to birth is hardly a progressive social move-- it’s an act of desperate survival.

I agree, but I like having a family under such circumstances - it’s easier. It must be said that generally, at least my country, among the people in general, there seems to be more general acceptance of children than in the US, and that’s not just because of relatively recent depopulation and government actions.

These next ideas were lifted from a site called Advocates For Youth.org. Presumeably, these tenets are touted as the reason for the low pregnany/ abortion/ birth rates for European teens: What do you make of these ideas:

Well, to be honest, young people in my country don’t really fall under those generalizations. They are not even ‘enlightened’ about sex and we have lots of abortions. That’s sad and shameful for me.

In other words, the general European sensibility is not a credible witness to modesty and has little accuracy defining the parameters of it. Don’t feel bad, LitCrit. the general American sensibility fails just as badly. But the Catholic sensibility should be informed, discerning, and interested in protecting the mystery of the person.

But cannot define everything in inches for all eternity…?

Finally, I think a general apology should be extended to the fellows on this thread. These guys expressed sincere difficulty and restraint, all the while asking their trials to attain chastity and modesty be considered with charity. And not a single female poster retracted any part of her assertion that “his lust was his problem.”

I didn’t say that. I said what incited lust was culturally conditioned. If I’d tempted any of the (truly admirable)men that have posted here, I would have apologized, but I’m certain I haven’t, because I’m half the world away.

Fellows, I have a husband and five sons (four of those sons are adults) and I know that while disciplining lust is ultimately an inside job-- the man’s responsibility with God’s help-- I know that we women can be irresponsible with our beauty. Please accept my apologies.

 

[Litcrit]

And where have I shown anything but respect for the modesty of US culture? I don’t always understand it, and I offer examples of how it is different where I live, and I ask questions, but have I shown disrespect?

I have already promised not to wear bikinis if I visited the US. I won’t wear spaghetti straps either. I always respect the culture I deal with and visit.

If someone has accused someone else of wanting to cover women from top to toe, it wasn’t me! I don’t even mind burkas, honestly, I’d wear one if I were to visit the Middle East.

Have I offended anyone in my threads? If so, I sincerely apologize . That was not my intention…

 

[Fran65]

Hi Monica,
My name is Karen btw (as it says at the end of my post), but feel free to call me Fran.

In my reply, I was addressing your statement about Europe, which was off topic, hardly surprising then if it didn’t address bikini wearing.
As for whether bikinis are immodest or not, I am concerned with what I wear and with what children I am responsible for wear. I don’t wear a bikini, I feel uncomfortable at exposing so much of myself. I feel the same way about short skirts, low cut and skimpy tops and showing my underwear. Thats how I feel. I have friends, Catholic, Muslim and other faiths or none who wear all sorts of stuff. Imo, other people can choose to wear what they want. We live in a free society and that’s healthy (imo). If you don’t want to wear a bikini I doubt if there’s anyone that’s going to make you wear one! There are some societies where women do not have a choice about what to wear, where to go and they cannot work or get an education or healthcare either. Setting hard and fast rules such as ‘No Bikinis’ and expecting everyone to abide by them is one step away the sort of dictatorial society we’ve fought and are fighting world wars to avoid. That’s just one of the reasons why in the Catechism it says:

Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. “He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.” CCC 1782

Sorry, Monica, but your conscience tells you not to wear a bikini, but despite discussion some of the other posters here clearly want to wear one. *According to the Catechism *if it doesn’t conflict with their conscience - not your conscience - then they have the right to wear one! Its a matter for the individual - and that’s how it should be. That way we safeguard our God given free will and the freedoms that our societies give us.

As for Europe having the right to define parameters of modesty, two things. First, I never said it did! Second, the Catechism quote states clearly that those parameters are defined by the individual in the context of a formed conscience. You probably want to argue that those bikini wearing women have an inadequately formed conscience that’s why they can’t see the wrong in it. But, you still don’t have *the right to insist *that they don’t wear bikinis. Its your opinion, that’s all. A person’s choices are between her conscience and God.
As I said before, if you don’t like them, don’t wear one and don’t buy your daughters one!
Pax
Karen

 

[queen_anne78]

from personal experience…When I made the decision to begin leading a chaste life, I had already planned a spring break trip to Panama City. While there, I kept reminding myself I was holding myself to a higher standard than about …95% of the other girls there, in that I wasn’t out drinking and sleeping around all night.

Oddly enough, the guys treated me like all the other girls who WERE sleeping around…like I was nothing but a piece of meat. I was infuriated…couldn’t they tell I was a chaste girl??? couldn’t they tell that there was more to me than my figure?? Couldn’t they tell----Oh. Huh. I’m sitting on the beach in what looks like MY UNDERWEAR. Of course they can’t tell.

That was my sophomore year of college…about 4 years ago. I haven’t worn a two-piece since, bikini or otherwise. I have worn tankinis, but only those that cover my tabernacle I “could” wear a bikini…I’m not ashamed of my body and for whatever reason I’ve been blessed with a nice metabolism and I look like I did in high school…but that’s not the point. Every woman’s body is sacred, whether she “looks good” in a bathing suit or not.

FTR. That’s why I think it’s fine for men to not need to cover their tummies…no offense, but, nothin sacred there, kwim? But us ladies…we got the wombs see?

Also, about the volleyball. I think it’s RIDICULOUS that they wear those silly little bathing suits. DH loves beach volley ball, but unfortunately we can’t watch it b/c the amount of skin showing is too much. Whatever happened to an Under armor tank top and some shorts??? Same for track and field. Give me a break already.

 

[monicatholic]

LitCrit,

I appreciate your honorable expressions of charity. I really do.

Here’s my specific question to you and to the other EU gals who have posted: how do you reconcile basing your modesty standards on a certain cultural standard when the culture cited is in moral decline?

(the very same question can be asked of American Catholic women, but the European culture has been your default argument all along. so relevant to EU culture I ask.)

 

[Fran65]

Karen/ Fran,
Catholic men already have a tremendous responsibility in our EU/ US cultres. These men are my brothers in Christ. It is my responsibility to help them attain virtue.

As I said, don’t wear a bikini or anything else that you feel is immodest then.
You have the right to raise issues and to discuss arguments and counterarguments, but you still don’t have the right to tell others what to do! I think that’s called Dictatorship isn’t it?

Dictatorship (government without people’s consent) is in contrast to democracy (government whose power comes from people) and totalitarianism (government controls every aspect of people’s life) is in contrast to liberalism (government emphasizes individual right and liberty). Wikipedia 19/8/08

That, btw, is another reason that the CCC says what it does about the individual conscience and right to make their own decisions. Catholics have been on the receiving end of dictatorships and totalitarian states, so we clearly have to be careful about moving towards that type of political governance! Bikini wearing today, the right to worship your God in your own way tomorrow. I’m not joking.

 

[Fran65]

Hi Monica,
You posted while I was writing my last one.
Cultural differences are not my argument. I never said that modesty was cultural. What is acceptable is cultural - no bikinis in Dubai outside private westerners’ beaches - unlike the beaches in Cannes.
However, where the boundaries are regarding modest clothing are in the person’s own conscience, as argued above. Others can make observations -“Honey, that bikini is really revealing.”, but if you’re not offending people e.g. by turning up for mass in a bikini top - then what the person wears is and should be their own choice.
Karen

 

[Litcrit]

LitCrit,

I appreciate your honorable expressions of charity. I really do.

That means a lot. I’m SO relieved, I thought I’d been offensive and really didn’t want that!

Here’s my specific question to you and to the other EU gals who have posted: how do you reconcile basing your modesty standards on a certain cultural standard when the culture cited is in moral decline?

Good question. But I don’t base my modesty standards on culture, but on precise answers I got from my confessor several years ago about every conceivable aspect of clothing, including high heels and length of skirts

I don’t base, e.g., my sexual life on the declining standards on those around me, but on Church teaching and advice from my confessor. Same with everything else concerning faith and morality, and yes, much of it is wrong in the culture around me. But I don’t believe two-piece swimsuits to be objectively morally wrong. They could be wrong in cultures where they excite men’s lust.

(the very same question can be asked of American Catholic women, but the European culture has been your default argument all along. so relevant to EU culture I ask.)

Actually, I never said “bikinis are OK here, so wear them everywhere!” I didn’t

I was asking and comparing.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

You know, there is a difference between judging others and saying that there are some standards of modesty that should be followed.

This summer one day at daily Mass a woman (who goes to daily Mass frequently) came to Mass with her daughter (young teen) and both were wearing very short shorts (the type that often have words written across the bum, and some parts that are often covered by underwear were visible). I know they were going to work on setting up stuff for the Bible vacation school thing, but it was not appropriate for Mass. There are some standards of modesty, its not relative to what we are comfortable with etc. I know the mother is a very good person, I highly doubt she was doing it to tempt others etc, I guess it was out of comfort since they were going to be working and it is so hot out, and if the mother is wearing it I don’t see it strange for her daughter to do the same… but this did not change the fact that it was innappropriate. I am not judging them, God knows what they were thinking, and it is probable that I would sin more if I wore something less revealing but with worse intentions (or at least with the knowledge that it is not modest), I am not talking about juding others, we cannot judge anyone, but we can teach our kids to dress modestly.

 

[monicatholic]

but you still don’t have the right to tell others what to do! I think that’s called Dictatorship isn’t it?

no Karen, it’s not dictatorship. dictatorship is forcing others to do what one wants, under the fear of punitive reprocussions.

conversely, I would assert that when the dictatorship (or judgmentalism) charge is leveled against clearly-articulated, unpopular views, that is called closed-mindedness.

the well-formed Catholic should know the difference between judging others and employing the charismatic gift of discernment.

what LitCrit argued would be immodesty in Europe (toppless with thongs) is not immodesty. it’s pornography. what you are arguing for individual choice (without making any distinction between the value of those individual choices) is relativism.

both pornography and relativism are antithetical to the informed Catholic perspective.

Catholics called to holiness. holiness isn’t necessarilly cultural extremism, but a difference should be evident.

i appeal again, Karen to the title of this thread. my response has been three-fold:
*a specific answer to “how exactly?”
*an entreaty to consider our weaker brethern
*a warning to be careful just what influences are informing our consciences and standards.

 

[savienu]

what LitCrit argued would be immodesty in Europe (toppless with thongs) is not immodesty. it’s pornography. .

It’s pornography why, because you SAY it is? Are all nude paintings pornography? Was Michaelango in the business of pornography? Was John Paul II wrong to have the fig leaves removed from the paintings in the sistine chapel?

What is appopriate attire for a woman to wear to the beach? Should she only be allowed in board shorts and a t-shirt? What about men? Are they allowed to wear speedos? How long should a skirt be?

Is this whole thing about breasts? Our culture is WRONG to consider them sex objects; primarily, they exist to feed children. Should women purposefully, indiscriminately expose them? No, and I don’t think anyone here has advocated they should. I think the issue comes with you trying to put YOUR standards for modesty on to everyone else. Well, what makes you know better? The CCC doesn’t say “thou shalt not wear bikinis.” That’s what you’ve determined based on your understanding. And that’s fine. But just because another woman doesn’t come to that conclusion, and another woman doesn’t live in a culture with the same ideas, doesn’t mean that she is wrong and you are right.

 

[monicatholic]

It’s pornography why, because you SAY it is? Are all nude paintings pornography? Was Michaelango in the business of pornography? Was John Paul II wrong to have the fig leaves removed from the paintings in the sistine chapel?

in the spirit of goodwill, savienu, i’ll respond, though your challenges are clearly misrepresentative of my remarks: nudity is not pornography.

conversely, is topless thong wearing-- in your perspective-- within the parameters of modesty? why or why not?

sanienu, according to your contentions, it doesn’t matter ***how ***one concludes, only that one can point to some process that has eventuated a conclusion. in other words, it’s all good.

but savienu, it’s not all good. might it be a matter of convenience (possibly influenced by vain feminist ideology) to assert that modesty (culturally influenced as it may be) ***defies ***objective standard?

i’m tempted to relist the objective points you haven’t addressed, but this is getting very repetitious. all this repetition is seeming to me like an irresposible use of time.

anyone should feel free to pm me.

 

[LordNecro]

Monicatholic - I don’t agree with everything you’ve said but thank you for acknowledging our struggles with lust!

Lady Anne - You been listening/reading the Everts? Lol.

God bless you both.

 

[Teakafrog]

Once again, there IS an answer to this. Just like everything else, it’s already been covered (pun intended ) in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

What more is there to be said? How can anyone NOT understand this?

 

[Fran65]

Teakafrog,

Thank you. It needs restating, even if its for the third time.

Monica,

Closedmindness? Have you heard of projection?? Stating that I don’t believe anyone has the right to tell others what to wear isn’t an example of closedmindness, its stating a principle enshrined in the Catechism! (previously cited). If that is closedminded count me in!

In addition, I am not a moral relativist. If I was I wouldn’t be Catholic. It is actually impossible to be rationally a ‘Catholic Relativist’. The two are incompatible and I’m a pretty rational kind of gal. St Thomas Aquinas - great hero of mine.

Anyway, please have a think about the difference between saying that people have the right to make choices and saying that those choices are equal in moral terms. It is really important that you see the distinction otherwise, as I said before, you could end up with a totalitarian state - and it may define itself as ‘Catholic’, but it won’t be.

Here’s a radical thought, on the beach instead of becoming upset about what other women are wearing, you could try enjoying yourself with your children.
More importantly, at Mass, instead of getting wound up by what other people are wearing you could concentrate on what’s happening on the altar and be thankful that those poor ‘immodest’ souls are actually at Mass! God invited them, and you didn’t write the dress code, disappointing though that may be.
Do you honestly think that Jesus would reject someone for not wearing what you think is appropriate? He came for sinners, not the well dressed.
Pax
Karen

 

[Litcrit]

Once again, there IS an answer to this. Just like everything else, it’s already been covered (pun intended ) in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

“What should remain hidden” varies from culture to culture, that’s why it’s not precisely defined. I cover my breasts, my bottom and my genitals, because that’s what should remain hidden where I live. My stomach and my back don’t have to remain hidden here.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

Unhealthy curiosity happens here when women wear topless thongs. Normal two-pieces don’t inspire it, as men here are used to them and have been for 2-3 generations.

2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.

Again, this does not say ‘thou shalt not swim in two-pieces, but only in one-pieces’

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

Yes, they vary. Modesty in my culture proclaims that women cover their genitals and breasts, and men their genitals. So we do.

What more is there to be said? How can anyone NOT understand this?

 

[savienu]

Teakafrog,

Thank you. It needs restating, even if its for the third time.

Monica,

Closedmindness? Have you heard of projection?? Stating that I don’t believe anyone has the right to tell others what to wear isn’t an example of closedmindness, its stating a principle enshrined in the Catechism! (previously cited). If that is closedminded count me in!

In addition, I am not a moral relativist. If I was I wouldn’t be Catholic. It is actually impossible to be rationally a ‘Catholic Relativist’. The two are incompatible and I’m a pretty rational kind of gal. St Thomas Aquinas - great hero of mine.

Anyway, please have a think about the difference between saying that people have the right to make choices and saying that those choices are equal in moral terms. It is really important that you see the distinction otherwise, as I said before, you could end up with a totalitarian state - and it may define itself as ‘Catholic’, but it won’t be.

Here’s a radical thought, on the beach instead of becoming upset about what other women are wearing, you could try enjoying yourself with your children.
More importantly, at Mass, instead of getting wound up by what other people are wearing you could concentrate on what’s happening on the altar and be thankful that those poor ‘immodest’ souls are actually at Mass! God invited them, and you didn’t write the dress code, disappointing though that may be.
Do you honestly think that Jesus would reject someone for not wearing what you think is appropriate? He came for sinners, not the well dressed.
Pax
Karen

 

[embwt]

Do you honestly think that Jesus would reject someone for not wearing what you think is appropriate? He came for sinners, not the well dressed.
Pax
Karen

Reject? No. However, admonishing the sinner is a spiritual work of mercy.