bilingual liturgies

  • Thread starter Thread starter meg
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Melman:
A roof under which, almost no one will understand what’s being said. How is that a desirable thing?
Click to expand...
Latin isn’t that hard to learn once you hear it over and over and over again. After three or two weeks of attending Latin Mass(N.O.M and TLM) my friends can figure out what is going on the altar. You can distribute Missal translation. How come everyone is worried about not understanding latin when Catholics for thousands of years worshiped in Latin?

I have seen parishes torn apart because of languages, would you rather have a community torn apart on which language to use or united under one roof with a Common language?

Increasingly I am seeing self-segregation of various ethnicities within a Parish and my diocese, is that how we want to run a Catholic parish and diocese, all because to accomidate human wants?

Like it or not, Latin is the norm of the Novus Ordo Missae.
On top of that, Vatican II said that Latin is to be preserved in Latin rites? How come that statement is ignored?
 
The church has used Latin for at least 1500 years as the norm of the church. Before that is was Greek, another universal laugage at the time. The church is holy now, and then. The use of ancient languages in the liturgy is common among eastern Christianity too. I think bilingual masses are putting too much emphasis on the community as if we were celebrating ourselves as Cardinal Ratzinger has said.

Clearly, the readings and homily are given in the vernacular, but the rest of the mass would benefit if it were said in Latin. It would make the universal aspect of our faith much more apparent and would bring people together.
 
40.png
dutch:
the readings and homily are given in the vernacular
Click to expand...
Which one? The proposal on the floor is that Latin would help in parishes that have two or more “vernaculars”.
40.png
iohannes:
Latin isn’t that hard to learn once you hear it over and over and over again. … How come everyone is worried about not understanding latin when Catholics for thousands of years worshiped in Latin?
Click to expand...
Do we have to have this discussion again? For hundreds of years, Latin was taught in the schools. It hasn’t been for 2, maybe 3 generations now. A hundred years ago, Latin was the only option. But if a parish nearby started saying Mass in English, what do you think people would have done? Most would attend a Mass they could understand. As long as the vernacular is permitted, Latin can’t be seriously considered for general use.
 
Here is a sucessful parish that used Latin to unite Spanish and English speakers, unfortunately he was moved probally for political reasons.

cruxnews.com/wilson/wilson-03dec03.html
But it was the Liturgy which really got peoples’ attention. In addition to regular Masses in Spanish and in English, the 10:45AM Sunday Mass was a Sung Latin Novus Ordo Mass, with Gregorian Chant, and readings and homily in the vernacular: a thoroughly reverent, beautiful liturgy. Father Weinberger’s conviction is that the ancient tongue provides a common reference point in a parish where seventy percent of the parishioners are Spanish speakers and thirty percent are English speaking; thus a full Latin Mass is provided, and at every Mass the Eucharistic Prayer is in Latin. Journalist Rod Dreher, writing of his first time attending this 10:45AM Mass, said, “We received kneeling at the altar rail. When we returned to our pew, my wife was making her thanksgiving, and started crying. She couldn’t stop weeping, and I asked her if she was okay. She said, ‘This is what I thought the Church was. This is why I became Catholic.’” After mass, Julie was speaking to one of the parishioners outside the parish about how great the Mass was. She said to the woman, ‘Do you realize what you have here?’ The woman replied, ‘You don’t have to tell us! We know how blessed we are.’ "
Click to expand...
 
Which one? The proposal on the floor is that Latin would help in parishes that have two or more “vernaculars”.
Click to expand...
I guess which ever the priest decides. It’s not that important as long as it’s mainly done in Latin.
 
40.png
Iohannes:
Here is a sucessful parish that used Latin to unite Spanish and English speakers, unfortunately he was moved probally for political reasons.

cruxnews.com/wilson/wilson-03dec03.html
Click to expand...
The end of the article says that his status was unresolved.

And as a whole, the article does not have a balanced point of view. It starts out presenting what are apparently facts, and then degrades into yet another rant about “what’s wrong with the Church”. There may be “another side of the story” that the author chose not to investigate, or to ignore. Just some things to consider.
 
Fr. Wilson is not a traditionalist btw, he celebrates the Novus Ordo Missae and has his own parish. He also writes for The Wanderer. The Wanderer is not a traditionalist magazine. It is quite interesting how I presented a non-traditionalist author and yet you discredit him as being not balance?

This is not Fox News.
 
40.png
Iohannes:
Fr. Wilson is not a traditionalist btw, he celebrates the Novus Ordo Missae and has his own parish. He also writes for The Wanderer. The Wanderer is not a traditionalist magazine. It is quite interesting how I presented a non-traditionalist author and yet you discredit him as being not balance?
Click to expand...
I don’t go around looking to classify anyone as “traditionalist” or anything else for that matter; I just calls 'em as I sees 'em. The article seems to only present one side of the story.
 
40.png
dutch:
I guess which ever the priest decides. It’s not that important as long as it’s mainly done in Latin.
Click to expand...
I just don’t know how to reply to that. Your proposal doesn’t solve the problem, in fact it makes it worse.
 
You’re equating the efficaciousness of the mass with you understanding it. The liturgy is not centered on the community and individuals but is for worshiping God. The sacrifice at the altar is offered to the “Holy Trinity and to distribute graces which Christ earned by his death on the cross”

The holiest action takes place on earth during the Mass.

Anything you learn from the mass is of secondary importance. Latin is a excellent method to covey this mysterious aspect of the Mass.

emmerich1.com/Eucharist.htm
 
I actually sing with a bilingual choir and sometimes I am still not sure what the answer to the whole thing is. I even get tired of bilingual masses and music, I must admit, but I think for some parishes it is good. A lot depends on your Hispanic population - if a lot of Hispanics have only recently immigrated and maybe moved older generations of the family with them, the older people have a much harder time learning English. I think our church should offer ESL classes to ease their assimilation into the area. If there is a sufficient number who do not speak English well, of course, there should be a Spanish mass. Once a month, our parish also has a Philipino mass for our growing Philipino community and they have a covered dish supper after. It is a chance for them to worship in the language that is most meaningful to them and to have fellowship. I think the priest is perfectly happy to do it for the wonderful food… 😛

I find that people just really fight change and we tend to remember the old times as so great but forget the problems.
Eventually, this problem will pass and there will be new problems or should we call them challenges to face. The Hispanics will learn English. A lot of the kids in Hispanic families don’t speak Spanish fluently already, which is kind of sad. My son-in-law is Hispanic and I hope that he and my daughter raise their children bilingual. I think people who just pop into to say “bilingual mass is stupid” are forgetting that we are supposed to minister to everyone. We are the UNIVERSAL church after all.
 
40.png
dutch:
You’re equating the efficaciousness of the mass with you understanding it. The liturgy is not centered on the community and individuals but is for worshiping God. The sacrifice at the altar is offered to the “Holy Trinity and to distribute graces which Christ earned by his death on the cross”

The holiest action takes place on earth during the Mass.

Anything you learn from the mass is of secondary importance. Latin is a excellent method to covey this mysterious aspect of the Mass.

emmerich1.com/Eucharist.htm
Click to expand...
👍 Now, Dutch, that is an answer! I may not agree with you but I can understand your reasoning and will be much more apt to listen to you because you are discussing, not insulting! In the future, I will also be more likely to read your posts with an open mind. 🙂
 
40.png
Beverly:
Now, Dutch, that is an answer! I may not agree with you but I can understand your reasoning and will be much more apt to listen to you because you are discussing, not insulting! In the future, I will also be more likely to read your posts with an open mind.
Click to expand...
Maybe you can explain to me, then, what the post has to do with the discussion. We were discussing languages, and he posted something that didn’t address that at all, and a link to an article that answered questions about Mass and Communion. Which are lovely thoughts and all, but not at all relevant to the discussion. So your admiration for the post is, at best, puzzling.
 
melman,

what don’t you understand? the thread is on a solution to bilingual liturgies. People have given you a solution: LATIN.

what you don’t seem to understand is that the mass isn’t about weather or not you like it.
 
40.png
dutch:
melman,

what don’t you understand? the thread is on a solution to bilingual liturgies. People have given you a solution: LATIN.

QUOTE]

The thread was started not to find a solution to bilingual Masses but because the woman who started wanted help with the temptation to be resentful in her situation.

Latin is not the solution to every problem. If a bishop or priest sees a need for a bilingual liturgy, then we should not second guess his wisdom and prudential judgement.

I have a suggestion for meg: How about spending a holy hour in lieu of Benediction for now and try going to Benediction again in a few months?
Click to expand...
 
Beverly, what you are running up against is human nature. Again, the church minsitering to different ethnic/language groups has been the situation in the US since the 1800s. If one ever goes to older cities on the East Coast, or even to San Francisco, and wonder why there are so many Catholic churches so close to each other, in some cases almost on the same block, this is the reason why.
 
Let’s recap:

What to do about bilingual masses (where part is in one language, part in another)?
  • Latin masses, readings and homily in the vernacular.*
    Which vernacular?
  • Doesn’t matter, just as long as the rest of it is in Latin.*
    So now some people won’t understand any of the mass.
    It doesn’t matter if you understand the Mass or not.
What then was the point of your initial suggestion to have readings and homily in the vernacular? The question here is what to do when a parish has more then one vernacular. If your final position is indeed that one does not need to understand the Mass at all, I think that goes against the desire for “active participation”.
 
Melman:
Maybe you can explain to me, then, what the post has to do with the discussion. We were discussing languages, and he posted something that didn’t address that at all, and a link to an article that answered questions about Mass and Communion. Which are lovely thoughts and all, but not at all relevant to the discussion. So your admiration for the post is, at best, puzzling.
Click to expand...
I was just so happy that he expressed himself without using the word stupid once and I was taught you should reward good behavior. 😉 If you are nice, I might send you a big thumbs up some time too. 😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top