bilingual liturgies

[Beverly]

JNB:

Beverly, what you are running up against is human nature. Again, the church minsitering to different ethnic/language groups has been the situation in the US since the 1800s. If one ever goes to older cities on the East Coast, or even to San Francisco, and wonder why there are so many Catholic churches so close to each other, in some cases almost on the same block, this is the reason why.

I think a lot of us at our church agree that the two churches here will eventually gravitate towards an Anglo church and a Hispanic church. It is just the way it is - people tend to congregate with others like themselves. It is sad in a way - there are very few churches in our area that are not segregated and it is always something I love to see - White, Black, Hispanic, Philipino, Indian, all worshipping God together. Like I said before, it won’t be perfect until we are all in Heaven. So we just have to keep striving to discern God’s will and bring about His Kingdom on Earth.

 

[JNB]

Intergartion of parishes has to happen naturally, not because of forced social enginerring, and anything that is forced almost allways fails. The Bishops 100 years ago forcing the Polish community to drop some of their customs resulted in a schims that created the Polish National Catholic church, at one point they had in the US close to one million members.

 

[Beverly]

JNB - I agree - having bilingual forced in our parish has caused resentment on both sides. My parents really do not like bilingual liturgies but they love the Hispanic people. My daughter married a wonderful young man who is Hispanic and the wedding was bilingual out of respect for both sides of the family - Jesus has grandparents who do not speak English. This is a good case for a bilingual liturgy but I am not sure that forcing all parish celebrations to be bilingual is good.

 

[misericordie]

I responded to a similar thread as this one previously and in it, I mentioned english/spanish liturgies. I will once again enlighten some:
First, lets make it VERY clear that Spanish speaking catholics in the USA make up the MAJORITY of Catholics in our Country. Hence, it is only logical that our bishops (one thing they are doing right) seek to Pastorally attend to the majority of Catholics (spanish speakers) in the USA by offering them the opportunity to worship in Spanish. Just like English speaking catholics wanted an ENGLISH Mass, etc., though the traditional language of the Church is LATIN. I MUST add, if there is a language that is the FARTHEST away from latin, that is english. Oh yes, by the way, the Roman Missal/rubrics etc., in SPANISH are more similar to the oroginal latin meanings of the Mass. How? Well, one example out of the many: When the priest in english says: “The Lord be with you”, to which the people in the pew respond: “and also with you.” THIS IS A TOTAL DISFIGURATION of the original meaning as found in LATIN: “Dominus Vobiscum”, to which the people respond: “et cum spiritu tuo.” NOW, on the contrary of the english, the spanish is: “El Senor este con Vosotros” to which the people respond: “Y CON TU ESPIRITU.” literal english translation: “THE lORD BE WITH YOU”, TO WHICH THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO RESPOND: “AND WITH YOUR SPIRIT”, contrary to “with you too” as implied by the “and also with you” in english.
All this being said: if a person’s Eucharistic relationship with Christ, is based on a xenophobic (fear of other cultures/languages) relationship, and not on the real presence of Christ in the host used for Benediction, then that person’s/persons’ OPINION of Catholicism really must be looked at as the official Magisterium would look at it: in charity and love of neighbor, yes, yes, even if they speak other languages. One thing that never stops amazing me is how much racial/cultural division us CATHOLICS create at times. THERE IS ONLY ONE THING I ADMIRE of Most protestant denominations: They treat each OTHER with respect, and as fellow Christians.
I am a very orthodox Catholic who has little tolerance for any form of liturgical abuse, etc., BUT, I also have little tolerance for those who have racial and cultural Intolerance. After all, we are not in the Catholic Church of the 1940’s USA anymore: niether in Church nor Country.:tiphat: OR WE CAN CHANGE ALL LITURGY TO THE CATHOLIC OFFICIAL LANGUAGE: LATIN

 

[misericordie]

I must respond to the following statement someone here made: “Necomers here should learn english if they want to move up in the economic scale in this country.” If ever I have read in all my studies in theology and philosophy an argument filled with so much FALLACY it is that one. Not only does it have NOTHING to do with this forum to mention “economic upscale” but it is a rather xenophobic comment which is totally out of line in a Catholic Forum such as this one, of Catholic Answers. However, one comment I will respectfully make: Italians, etc. (many are my friends) did not learn english over-night, and were ALSO discriminated against by a certain race that was here in the USA before them. I also often wonder why is it many closed minded Catholics who seem to suffer from low self-esteem and fear, seem at the same time to think that the only real catholics are those who ONLY speak english and think that the only valid Mass is the english Mass. What arrogance to think that english is the official CATHOLIC language: the least spoken in the VATICAN itself: in which the official languages of the VATICAN are: Italian, SPANISH and Latin. Of course, since Spanish and Italian are so similar and BOTH come from Latin roots, it would only be logical. I would also take it that some may beleive that the only Catholic is the blond-blue -eyed blond english worshipping catholic? NOT!:tiphat:
The really educated man is the one who is able to speak various foreign languages, after all, look at the this Pope and the four prievious to him(by learning various languages one might move up the “economic scale”(as Christ did?).
“Sed liberanos ad malo.” (deliver us from evil).:dancing:

 

[pnewton]

dutch:

what don’t you understand? the thread is on a solution to bilingual liturgies. People have given you a solution: LATIN.

The problem is that it is not a practical solution. I do not think all Masses going to LATIN is something that will happen this year, decade or lifetime. If they do, then I will be obedient.

 

[t_times]

It is amazing how History does repeat itself, I think the last time this happen was at the “Tower of Babble”. That is probably why the elders chose a base language, for the western rite, Latin was chosen. Just maybe they had some insight…

 

[Veronica_Anne]

WhiteDove:

Yes, but back in the 40’s the Masses were in Latin. The reality is that Hispanics like their language as much as English speakers and want the Mass in their vernacular. If there are enough of them in a given parish then generally Spanish Masses are provided. Mexicans are mostly Catholic folks, but are being lured away from the Church in droves by Evangelicals, who are friendlier. I think y’all better start learning Spanish. In Europe many people know three languages. It’s a good thing!

Yup… and I still have my missal that has the Latin on one side of the page and English translation on the other side of the page.

We could just have missalettes that have English on one side and the other language on the other side. For however many different native languages are regularly spoken in that parish by people who don’t know English. The only problem would/could be that the homily would have to be repeated in the “other” language at that particular celebration of the Mass. And an edition for each pairing of English with another language would need to be published such that if there are 3 languages, then there’d be a missalette with English/language-one and English/language-two.

I notice that in my town that there are more PRACTICING Catholics among the Hispanic community than there are among the English-speaking community.

My own parish has 40 percent non-English speaking native speakers of Spanish.

And three priests – each of which has Spanish as their first language and are at least as good a speaker in English than I am.

At Mass, sometimes I hear parishoners complain “they should at least give us a priest who speaks English! I can’t understand what he’s saying with THAT accent!”

Sigh. We’re all sinners… including me… but it’s hard for me to hear someone say that in the pew behind me when Father is giving a really GREAT homily!!

When I miss the morning Mass on a Sunday, I’ll go to the evening Mass that night.

We have TWO days of the week that confessions are heard, too! yay! Saturday night before the 5:30pm (English) Mass and Sunday night before the 5:30pm (Spanish) Mass, too.

It’s kind of embarrassing to me, a native English speaker to notice that the line for confession on Sunday nights (with pretty much Spanish-only speaking parishoners) is much longer than the line for confession on Saturday nights (with parishoners who speak only English).

I really doubt that this is because Spanish-only speaking people are more sinful than anybody else!!!

I happen to have taken Spanish for a couple of years in Junior High way back then. And lived in a part of the country that had a pretty substantial percentage of Spanish-speaking people, too. So you pick up the phrases for the social graces.

I remember when I moved to the town where I live now that when I noticed that the hispanic-appearing man behind the counter at the DMV was speaking Spanish with the person in front of me in line in order to transact drivers license stuff when, when it was my turn and I spoke with him… I’ll never forget the look of amazement on his face when I said to him, in Spanish:

“Hi! I want to get a license for (name of state). Please?”

(the only word of that that I said in English was “license.”)

His reply in Spanish was “si” (yes). And did I seak Spanish?

I told him “lo siento, soy hablo poquito, pero I try.” Which means “I’m sorry. I speak only a little, but I try.”

He was so VERY gracious and smiled big. As time has gone by since then, I’ve noticed that people in this town tend to think poorly of people who speak Spanish.

And the Spanish-English speaking folks are very kind when they answer my questions about “how do you say THIS in Spanish?”

Among the most useful words I’ve added to my vocabulary to use in reply to “how are you?” is “consada!” (exhausted!)

Having said all that… all of us in America had better become aware that the Catholic population in this country (that doesn’t jump ship to any other Christian church) is going to increasingly be among the Hispanic community.

Which, as far as I’m concerned, NOT a problem!!

Gracias por tu gloria! (thanks be to God!)

 

[Beverly]

misericordie:

 First, lets make it VERY clear that Spanish speaking catholics in the USA:)  make up the MAJORITY of Catholics in our Country.  Hence, it is only logical that our bishops (one thing they are doing right) seek to Pastorally attend to the majority of Catholics (spanish speakers) in the USA by offering them the opportunity to worship in Spanish.  Just like English speaking catholics wanted an ENGLISH Mass, etc., though the traditional language of the Church is LATIN.  I MUST add, if there is a language that is the FARTHEST away from latin, that is english.   Oh yes, by the way, the Roman Missal/rubrics etc., in SPANISH are more similar to the oroginal latin meanings of the Mass.   How?  Well, one example out of the many:   When the priest in english says: "The Lord be with you", to which the people in the pew respond: "and also with you."   THIS IS A TOTAL DISFIGURATION of the original meaning as found in LATIN: "Dominus Vobiscum", to which the people respond: "et cum spiritu tuo."    NOW, on the contrary of the english, the spanish is: "El Senor este con Vosotros"   to which the people respond:  "Y CON TU ESPIRITU."      literal english translation: "THE lORD BE WITH YOU",   TO WHICH THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO RESPOND: "AND WITH YOUR SPIRIT",   contrary to "with you too" as implied by the "and also with you" in english.
All this being said: if a person's Eucharistic relationship with Christ, is based on a xenophobic (fear of other cultures/languages) relationship, and not on the real presence of Christ in the host used for Benediction, then that person's/persons' OPINION of Catholicism really must be looked at as the official Magisterium would look at it: in charity and love of neighbor, yes, yes, even if they speak other languages.  One thing that never stops amazing me is how much racial/cultural division us CATHOLICS create at times.  THERE IS ONLY ONE THING I ADMIRE of Most protestant denominations:   They treat each OTHER with respect, and as fellow Christians.  
  I am a very orthodox Catholic who has little tolerance for any form of liturgical abuse, etc.,   BUT, I also have little tolerance for those who have racial and cultural Intolerance.   After all, we are not in the Catholic Church of the 1940's USA anymore: niether in Church nor Country.:tiphat:      OR WE CAN CHANGE ALL LITURGY TO THE CATHOLIC OFFICIAL LANGUAGE: LATIN

Let me start by saying I personally do not have a problem with bilingual - I was one of the people who started a bilingual choir in our church but even I like to attend a mass all in English occasionally and I know for a fact that many of the Hispanics want nothing to do with bilingual - They want mass in Spanish. I fully understand and support that. It would be absolutely wrong to ignore the needs of people who’s first language is Spanish. For most of us, you are preaching to choir about racial tolerance although I really have to say that I disagree that the Protestant denominations have it right on this one. I don’t know how it is everywhere but in the South, Protestant churches tend to be very segregated. A lot of Evangelical churches are really reaching out to the Hispanic population, but they aren’t inviting them into their churches, they are building another one next door or maybe even across town. So I am not very sure what you mean by this being the only thing you admire. Personally, I admire that Protestants really know their bibles and share their faith with others. We should be more like them in those ways. ’

For most of you, it just seems so obvious that changing the Mass back to Latin would solve every ill. I am not sure that would be the case. But as to the horrible English translation, it seems a better idea would be to have a more accurate English translation. Now if the worst example of inaccuracy (and it may not be the worst, but it is the one I see referred to all of the time) is the line, “And also with you.” I am thinking that it may be closer to the Latin to say, “And also with your spirit.” but the meaning is obvious anyway. It doesn’t change the meaning for me to any extent. But if they change it, that would be fine with me. I still do not agree that the problem of bilingual liturgies would be solved by having the mass in Latin. I thought I read that in a Latin mass, the readings are still in the vernacular. Well, there’s the whole thing - the place where most people have the bilingual problem anyway. Then would the readings be in Spanish or English or both? Would the homily be in Spanish or English or both? If I am wrong and the readings are also in Latin, what would be the point of that? After all, the readings in church are for our instruction not God’s.

 

[Veronica_Anne]

dutch:

I think bi-ligual masses are stupid. We have a universal language we can use: LATIN. This way, everyone can participate no matter where in the world you are.

When we go to Mass, it isn’t about the community, but about worshiping God. The masses primary function is not pedagogic. It is the sacrafice at the altar which is most important.

Um… I disagree about “Mass, it isn’t about the community” in the sense that the community doesn’t matter.

This is because the Mass is a “corporate” (group) liturgy. And, therefore, the community is an ingredient of the Mass.

Tho, I agree with you about the Mass’s primary function NOT being pedagogic. And that the sacrifice at the altar is the whole point.

Having said that… may I offer for consideration this:

Seems to me that the early Church must’ve had similar struggles for various languages in the same community?

I’m not sure why
but this reminds me of Pentecost… somehow…

 

[Veronica_Anne]

condan:

Newcomers to this country need to learn English in order to assimilate and move up on the economic scale…

Oh. REALLY?!?

I’m sure that folks who speak only Spanish in this country – and who are definitely not hurting financially – would find that your point of view is sadly mistaken.

condan:

Although the intent is surely to help, I think that in the long run, it misses a great opportunity to help people learn English.

That’s a nice thought… yet I doubt that folks who don’t know English would prefer to think of the Mass as the way to learn English (or Spanish… or whatever other language the missal is in) when what we’re doing at Mass is worshipping as a community.

If folks happen to pick up a translation between English and Spanish by reading the missal or participating in a Mass said in a language other than their own – the more power to them!

For whatever it’s worth, the motivation of adult learners depends upon their immediate need to know that info/skill.

I’d really RATHER NOT “force” folks to learn English because the Mass is said ONLY in English!

Nor to “force” folks to learn a language other than English because the Mass is said ONLY in THAT language.

Just ain’t Christian, to me.

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Melman:

A roof under which, almost no one will understand what’s being said. How is that a desirable thing?

Um… it was never a problem for me in the pre-Vatican II Church.

EVERYBODY understood what was being said in Latin. We all had these really great missals that had Latin on one side and English on the other side so you could follow along by looking back and forth.

Besides, the vocal inflection at each phrase gave you a good clue about what point of the Mass you were…

and these really great line drawings of the priest’s posture at each point gave a good clue for following along in the missal to make sure that you were at the right point.

I guess I just don’t understand why somebody might NOT want the Mass to be said in Latin.

It’s a language that NONE of us speak as our first language… and that’s been the case for centuries and centuries… and the Church hasn’t fallen apart! Actually, it’s a great unifying influence especially among the multi-cultural nature of so many American communities.



I think that folks who insist on attending a non-indult Latin Mass are really trying to re-capture the sense of sacredness at Mass… but that, I s’poze, would be a different thread?

 

[pnewton]

Veronica Anne:

I’m not sure why
but this reminds me of Pentecost… somehow…

At least no one has suggested speaking in toungues all the way through the benediction.

 

[dutch]

Melman:

What then was the point of your initial suggestion to have readings and homily in the vernacular? The question here is what to do when a parish has more then one vernacular. If your final position is indeed that one does not need to understand the Mass at all, I think that goes against the desire for “active participation”.

This is from the documents of vatican II

“steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those [unchanging] parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them” (SC 54. 1). The council “acknowledges Gregorian Chant as especially suited to the Roman Liturgy” and “other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services” (SC, §116).

Most surprising of all, perhaps, is that the form of Mass that Cardinal Ratzinger has called a “break” in the tradition in the manner in which the Mass is celebrated, most Catholics are unfamiliar with the Latin responses."

(adoremus.org/1298-VatIIMass.html )

You assume people are not smart enough to be able to read a missal or learn those parts of the mass that doesn’t change in Latin. This is something called for by Vatican II. It isn’t very hard, no more difficult than learning any other aspect of our faith. Vernacular will not help you understand the mystery taking place and in fact, it might mask it in the banal and profane.

Having the mass in Latin would allow us to “actively participate” regardless of what country you’re in. This was the major point of Sacrosanctum Concilium. If we all had a common frame of reference, we can participate in the mass. The readings you can find in a missal. You would only lose out on the homily which is of secondary importance.

 

[system]

Again you miss the point. If the mass is in Latin and Spanish, all the English speakers will go to a parish that serves them better. If it’s in Latin and English, all the Spanish speakers will leave.

Quoting from V-II and Adoremus does not help - Latin is not a practical solution. Nor is it an “aspect of our faith” - nowhere in the Catechism does it say that knowing Latin makes for ‘better’ faith.

Vernacular will not help you understand the mystery taking place and in fact, it might mask it in the banal and profane. … You would only lose out on the homily which is of secondary importance.

Now I’m standing in front of a block wall, through which I know I can’t penetrate. So I won’t bother. I give up.

 

[dutch]

Melman:

Now I’m standing in front of a block wall, through which I know I can’t penetrate. So I won’t bother. I give up.

Melman, If Vatican II doesn’t help, what will. Maybe the great Melman has all the answers and we can ignore the councils of the church - that makes a lot of sense.

Obviously, the priest can give the homily and readings in any language he wants. He could split it up, but having the parts of the mass that doesn’t change in Latin would allow everyone to participate, regardless of their nationality.

You’re like talking to a retarted gorilla if you can’t grasp this concept. The re-introduction of Latin in accordance with Vatican II, the Pope, and the tradition of the Church would certainly help people of all nationalities to actively participate in the mass.

 

[HumblePilgrim]

I think bi-ligual masses are stupid. We have a universal language we can use: LATIN. This way, everyone can participate no matter where in the world you are.

When we go to Mass, it isn’t about the community, but about worshiping God. The masses primary function is not pedagogic. It is the sacrafice at the altar which is most important.

I agree with you there. I attended for the first time the Lord’s Supper last night and really felt that I did not get half of the beauty of the mass as it was bilingual. I just tuned out the Spanish parts. There were no missals as the Church was full to overflowing so I could not follow along. I would have preferred if the mass was in Latin because then there would be a familiar structure that EVERYONE could follow along with in their own missals. BTW, this was in Miami and so it is almost impossible to attend the Lord’s Supper in English.

 

[Florida123]

I think bi-ligual masses are stupid. We have a universal language we can use: LATIN. This way, everyone can participate no matter where in the world you are.

When we go to Mass, it isn’t about the community, but about worshiping God. The masses primary function is not pedagogic. It is the sacrafice at the altar which is most important.

AMEN!!!

 

[Florida123]

my local OF Parish will have 2 Vigil Masses one in english and the other in Spanish. The parish has more hispanics than Anglos and the Anglos tend to be older.

 

[Brendan]

I agree with you there. I attended for the first time the Lord’s Supper last night and really felt that I did not get half of the beauty of the mass as it was bilingual. I just tuned out the Spanish parts. There were no missals as the Church was full to overflowing so I could not follow along. I would have preferred if the mass was in Latin because then there would be a familiar structure that EVERYONE could follow along with in their own missals. BTW, this was in Miami and so it is almost impossible to attend the Lord’s Supper in English.

Jane, this thread is almost 7 years old. Why bring it up now?