Billions of people have HD video cameras in their pockets: why aren't we seeing lots of miracles on video?

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Incidentally, there is a whole body of Jewish law and Rabbinic opinion concerning Gentiles. Check out amazon.com/Divine-Code-Rabbi-Moshe-Weiner/dp/0981481124

The above book is a good guide to the dialogue on this subject for that tradition.

Look, this thread isn’t the place to debate this particular controversy. You’re right, the rabbit hole on this one is deep and can be technical. I’ve been down this road before and am convinced the Church has contradicted itself by changing the referent of the word “interest.” I will examine new evidence, and I will read those articles.

We wouldn’t even be arguing about these things if the Catholic Church had solid evidence to back up its claim to speak with the voice of God. And so we’re back to the topic: where are the signs and miracles Jesus promised to his followers? There are more Christians and more cameras right now than ever before in history. And not one bona-fide miracle captured on video by now? :hmmm:
Tell it to the doctors who don’t happen to have camera-laden probes inside cancer patients’ entrails when they are miraculously cured. OOOPS.

God does not want to be a TV star these days. Nor did He want to fly off the Temple. He wants to play hide and seek instead most of the time. We just plain don’t get to challenge Him on that.
 
Look, this thread isn’t the place to debate this particular controversy. You’re right, the rabbit hole on this one is deep and can be technical. I’ve been down this road before and am convinced the Church has contradicted itself by changing the referent of the word “interest.” I will examine new evidence, and I will read those articles.
A contradiction would mean keeping the same definition and reversing the position, not changing the meaning of a word and then changing the position.

Definition A - always wrong to collect “interest.”

Definition B - sometimes lawful to collect “interest.”

No contradiction.

Definition A - always wrong to collect “interest.”
Definition A - sometimes not wrong to collect “interest.”

That’s a contradiction.

What is interest? It changes. Language is fluid. So is economics… Property now makes money in a way it did not previously.

I do hope you start a new thread. 👍
 
Tell it to the doctors who don’t happen to have camera-laden probes inside cancer patients’ entrails when they are miraculously cured. OOOPS.

God does not want to be a TV star these days. Nor did He want to fly off the Temple. He wants to play hide and seek instead most of the time. We just plain don’t get to challenge Him on that.
I guess Zeus and Poseidon are just playing hide and go seek too huh? 😛
 
Incidentally, there is a whole body of Jewish law and Rabbinic opinion concerning Gentiles. Check out amazon.com/Divine-Code-Rabbi-Moshe-Weiner/dp/0981481124

The above book is a good guide to the dialogue on this subject for that tradition.

Look, this thread isn’t the place to debate this particular controversy. You’re right, the rabbit hole on this one is deep and can be technical. I’ve been down this road before and am convinced the Church has contradicted itself by changing the referent of the word “interest.” I will examine new evidence, and I will read those articles. **

We wouldn’t even be arguing about these things if the Catholic Church had solid evidence to back up its claim to speak with the voice of God. And so we’re back to the topic: where are the signs and miracles Jesus promised to his followers? There are more Christians and more cameras right now than ever before in history. And not one bona-fide miracle captured on video by now? :hmmm:**
Friend,
pamphlets.org.au/docs/cts/australia/html/acts1518.html
Book - amazon.com/Miracle-Lourdes-Ruth-Cranston/dp/0385241879
Book - amazon.com/Eucharistic-Miracles-Phenomena-Lives-Saints/dp/0895553031
catholicpamphlets.net/pamphlets/THE%20MIRACLES%20AT%20LOURDES.pdf
Book - amazon.com/dp/0895550660/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687522&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0895553031&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=7W03YFAEVTVSTXC6HH16
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/miracles-and-evangelism
Book - amazon.com/See-How-She-Loves-Apparitions/dp/0895557185/ref=pd_sim_14_6?ie=UTF8&dpID=515Lu0iyuML&dpSrc=sims&preST=AC_UL160_SR104%2C160&psc=1&refRID=7W03YFAEVTVSTXC6HH16
therealpresence.org/archives/Church_Dogma/Church_Dogma_026.htm
May God bless you and keep you!
 
I guess Zeus and Poseidon are just playing hide and go seek too huh? 😛
They did not become men. They did not establish public covenants. They did not inspire sacred writings. They did not establish an organ to speak for them on Earth. Etc.

God is hiding, yes, but He has given us the map to find Him.
 
They did not become men. They did not establish public covenants. They did not inspire sacred writings. They did not establish an organ to speak for them on Earth. Etc.

God is hiding, yes, but He has given us the map to find Him.
And the map isn’t all that long, either, thank the Lord :).
 
They did not become men. They did not establish public covenants. They did not inspire sacred writings. They did not establish an organ to speak for them on Earth. Etc.

God is hiding, yes, but He has given us the map to find Him.
Neither did God. Not true: Poseidon pledged to protect the seafarers who invoke him. Not true: The Illiad was considered sacred as were many plays and epics. Not true: many oracles spoke for Poseidon, and the seas themselves offer testimony to his might and cunning. 😛
 
Again my friend, your assertion that he doesn’t believe it is without basis. Do you believe that the statement of the exact phrase “100% certain” is the only way to convey its meaning?
I think that without the phrase “100% certainty”* we can’t have…ehrm…100% certainty that this is what is being asserted.

That’s why my position is the much better and more logical (and more truthful) position: we can have certainty of God’s existence, and that is exactly what the Church teaches, what Kreeft teaches,** and what Broussard teaches**…

unless I hear from Broussard personally…and then I will happily rescind the above. 🙂

Otherwise, it’s quite clear that your position is the mistaken one and one that has diverged from the Church.

*I will also accept 100% certitude or absolute certitude or absolute certainty.
 
Again my friend, your assertion that he doesn’t believe it is without basis. Do you believe that the statement of the exact phrase “100% certain” is the only way to convey its meaning? That isn’t true. I provided ample evidence in my quotation that he indeed does believe it’s given the wording he used on multiple occasions which necessarily implies absolute certitude. And again, we already discussed why the Vatican Council didn’t use it. That was simply not the manner of speaking, particularly in an official document. And again I showed that Pope Pius XII taught it, since he tells us we can know with demonstrative certainty, and then I provided a definition of what demonstrative means in philosophy - a sound demonstration is necessarily perfectly certain. You might also note the very title of the Strange Notions article - “How to Perfectly Know the Existence of God”.
God bless you my friend!
Here’s why I have been spending so much time refuting your error that we have 100% certainty re: the existence of God, or, in fact, absolute certitude about almost any theological concept: it is a treacherous paradigm.

Attempting to absolutize proofs is otiose and, a “modern pitfall”.

As Monsignor Charles Pope says: Neither do most of us properly understand the limits or range of argumentation and so we tend to live in times where many “absolutize” what they argue and/or demand unreasonable “proof” for what others say. Frankly, the kinds of absolute proof many demand today is not possible in most realms of knowledge, including the many aspects of even the physical sciences, as we shall see. But this does not means we therefore know nothing, but only that we know within a range of stronger and weaker certitude based on a number of factors.
 
I think that without the phrase “100% certainty”* we can’t have…ehrm…100% certainty that this is what is being asserted.

That’s why my position is the much better and more logical (and more truthful) position: we can have certainty of God’s existence, and that is exactly what the Church teaches, what Kreeft teaches,** and what Broussard teaches**…

unless I hear from Broussard personally…and then I will happily rescind the above. 🙂

Otherwise, it’s quite clear that your position is the mistaken one and one that has diverged from the Church.

*I will also accept 100% certitude or absolute certitude or absolute certainty.
Friend,
We can see very clearly the implication of the phrase in other language used, as I explained with the lengthy Kreeft quote.
Two points that you have not responded to - one is the Strange Notions article which I have frequently mentioned but not received a response on (unless I am forgetting, and if I am, I am sorry). It makes the point clearly. Also, please re-read the quotation from the Catechism I posted earlier. It tells us that faith is more certain than all human knowledge. Therefore, since you acknowledged that we can know at least some things with absolute certainty, and the Catechism teaches that faith is more certain than all human knowledge, which would include that knowledge which you recognize as absolutely certain, our knowledge of God’s existence (and infallible article of faith), as well as our knowledge of all of the truths of the Catholic faith, is absolutely, 100% certain.
I emailed Broussard last night, and so I sent him the link to your page on CAF, so I hope you will hear from him. Be well my friend, and may God bless you!
 
And not one bona-fide miracle captured on video by now? :hmmm:
Zeitoun. Which is a great example of why modern miracles are so hard to come by. The greater the opportunity to document it, the less emphasis is placed on the purported miracle.
 
Friend,
We can see very clearly the implication of the phrase in other language used, as I explained with the lengthy Kreeft quote.
Two points that you have not responded to - one is the Strange Notions article which I have frequently mentioned but not received a response on (unless I am forgetting, and if I am, I am sorry). It makes the point clearly. Also, please re-read the quotation from the Catechism I posted earlier. It tells us that faith is more certain than all human knowledge. Therefore, since you acknowledged that we can know at least some things with absolute certainty, and the Catechism teaches that faith is more certain than all human knowledge, which would include that knowledge which you recognize as absolutely certain, our knowledge of God’s existence (and infallible article of faith), as well as our knowledge of all of the truths of the Catholic faith, is absolutely, 100% certain.
I emailed Broussard last night, and so I sent him the link to your page on CAF, so I hope you will hear from him. Be well my friend, and may God bless you!
I listened to Broussard’s videos today. NOTHING about absolute certainty, 100%certitude/certainty.

Wonderful apologia for God’s existence. And that we can know this with certitude.

So I offer HIM back to YOU, little friend, as my source for my position. 🙂
 
Because it doesn’t work! Sorry, couldn’t resist. 😛
And is there anything hidden behind that joke? What exactly do you mean by “work” here?
Also, there are ways to prove that a video is unedited. That’s why courts approve their admittance into evidence. We can also verify chain of custody and authorship for video much better than ancient texts.
So, you will just repeat that there is a way that a video couldn’t have been faked without telling us what it is?

Also, courts use the evidence that is available and do not demand that it would be “impossible to fake” (they find it is sufficient that evidence hasn’t been faked, even if it could have been - in fact, I suspect that the court would presume that evidence hasn’t been faked). After all, it is clear that witness testimony is not “unfakable”, but courts do take it into account. You, on the other hand, have a much higher standard (and, I’d say, an unreasonably high standard).
OK. What if I said, “hey, MPat: I speak for God. That’s right: I’m the mouthpiece of God on earth. I’m infallible on matters of faith and morals, and I’ve never contradicted myself. So, you better believe everything I tell you to believe, or you’re on the outs with God. Why? Cuz I say so.”

Is that convincing to you? Wouldn’t you want to see some proof that I’m God’s official spokesman? Isn’t outrageous for me to claim something like that? Who the heck am I, a pumpkincookie, to claim to speak for God? The hubris is staggering.
I think you misunderstood. I have asked you to explain your position in more detail. Instead you are trying to get me to agree with it - when it is not completely clear what your position actually is.
I do believe the St. Januarius “miracle” could be faked quite easily, and is a giant fraud perpetrated against simpletons for the purpose of robbing them.
So, in other words, you have no idea how exactly this miracle could be faked (otherwise you would have given a way to do so), but keep claiming that it could - maybe with the hope that someone will be a “simpleton” and be persuaded? 🙂
However, bone-fide limb-regrowth captured on video could NOT easily be faked (assuming the video has been verified by experts to be genuine).

If I saw the miracle I described with my own eyes, I would definitely convert. If I saw it on video, I’d want to make sure it was genuine, but if it were, I would convert.
So, just a testimony of a witness that obviously has a conflict of interest - yourself?

For what you have proved is (at best) that it would be reasonable for you to convert under given conditions. But that’s the easy part: the hard part is proving that you would actually act reasonably. It is not enough to say that you feel you would do so: you might be biased on this point (people generally prefer to think they are reasonable).

So, as we can see, this your “proof” wouldn’t work that well even if we would agree to use a double standard. But we do not - so, let’s wait for evidence (showing that you would act reasonably) that would be “impossible to fake”. 🙂

Or, of course, you can explain why different standard is reasonable here (but no, “I can’t meet it [but it’s OK that others can’t].” is not a good explanation).
 
omg…that page gave me a migraine.
I think most people wouldn’t understand that, never mind be persuaded by it!
Precisely. 👍

You see, even a good proof (the one that - objectively - should be giving great certainty of something) will fail to persuade the ones who do not understand it, the ones who haven’t read it (because, let’s say, it “gives them a migraine”) etc.

And are you sure that at least some proofs of God’s existence are not of such kind? You know, that would explain existence of both good proofs and atheists. 🙂 It also explains why sometimes people prefer to give relatively weak arguments that are easier to understand.
I’m not saying God needs to do it. I’m saying that if this God wanted more people to believe it existed, and if everyone’s salvation–a serious thing indeed–depended on it…it would be a way to ensure more people believed and went to heaven, assuming he cares about that.

And also…if this God is leaving it to us to “take it or leave it” then, this God should not be surprised or upset or angry if many people do not believe…because the reason people do not believe is because they don’t see enough evidence.
Again, this is something God could improve in a moment if he wanted to, but he chooses not to.

It seems cruel to make it *difficult *for many to believe…and then to punish them for it, if that is what actually happens.
Do you also think it is cruel that professors “make exams difficult to pass and then punish students for failing”? Or, perhaps, you think that professors do not want the students to pass?

Or do you think that it is OK for a student to complain about teaching materials (analogous to evidence) as the supposed cause of this failure when it is clear that the majority of students had the same materials and passed?

I hope this analogy makes things a little clearer…
 
The greatest miracle needed today is the conversion of people’s hearts. That doesn’t photograph very well.
 
Friend,
We can see very clearly the implication of the phrase in other language used, as I explained with the lengthy Kreeft quote.
Two points that you have not responded to - one is the Strange Notions article which I have frequently mentioned but not received a response on (unless I am forgetting, and if I am, I am sorry). It makes the point clearly. Also, please re-read the quotation from the Catechism I posted earlier. It tells us that faith is more certain than all human knowledge. Therefore, since you acknowledged that we can know at least some things with absolute certainty, and the Catechism teaches that faith is more certain than all human knowledge, which would include that knowledge which you recognize as absolutely certain, our knowledge of God’s existence (and infallible article of faith), as well as our knowledge of all of the truths of the Catholic faith, is absolutely, 100% certain.
I emailed Broussard last night, and so I sent him the link to your page on CAF, so I hope you will hear from him. Be well my friend, and may God bless you!
On the topic of 100% certainty you can not even prove that when we both see green we see the same color certainly.

We were both shown something and told it was called green. My green could be your red. And that is a science physical thing.

How then can you make anything so provable that it can be given to human mind with the supposed 100%???

I am certain we see green the same

I am certain of God.

I cannot prove to anyone either with any level of 100%
 
I listened to Broussard’s videos today. NOTHING about absolute certainty, 100%certitude/certainty.

Wonderful apologia for God’s existence. And that we can know this with certitude.

So I offer HIM back to YOU, little friend, as my source for my position. 🙂
My friend, you just completely ignored the Catechism. Please respond regarding it.
Also, I do not see how Broussard supports you, in that the language of his proof very clearly implies zero doubt, meaning absolute certainty.
And as for the post regarding treachery in absolute theological certitude, that is entirely inconsistent with the Church’s teaching that the certitude of faith is the greatest certitude men can have.
 
My friend, you just completely ignored the Catechism. Please respond regarding it.
I agree with the Catechism.

100%.

🙂

Not sure why you are citing it?
Also, I do not see how Broussard supports you, in that the language of his proof very clearly implies zero doubt, meaning absolute certainty.
I await his corroboration that he is claiming we have absolute certainty.
And as for the post regarding treachery in absolute theological certitude, that is entirely inconsistent with the Church’s teaching that the certitude of faith is the greatest certitude men can have.
Yes, we have certitude that what we profess is true.

Just not absolute certitude.

There is hardly a single thing that we can assert that has 100% certitude, and. as Monsignor Pope asserts: it’s a very, very dangerous road to walk.

We shouldn’t demand absolute certitude.

It’s not necessary.

And it’s puzzling that someone would place so much investment in asserting such a false teaching.
 
On the topic of 100% certainty you can not even prove that when we both see green we see the same color certainly.

We were both shown something and told it was called green. My green could be your red. And that is a science physical thing.

How then can you make anything so provable that it can be given to human mind with the supposed 100%???

I am certain we see green the same

I am certain of God.

I cannot prove to anyone either with any level of 100%
The cosmological proofs for the existence of God can impose 100% certitude on the mind because they are metaphysical. Please check out the James Kidd (Catholic Answers) link I provided (but let me know if you would like me to repost it, because I imagine that no one really wants to comb through a 19 page thread to find a particular link), as well as the Strange Notions link. As Kidd explains, the only piece of knowledge we need to prove God with absolute certainty is the knowledge of our own existence. Even if we are simply brains in vats, and our sense perceptions are mere deceptions, we can know that God exists through a series of metaphysical reasonings. It is actually a logical necessity. Now, I should mention that I am not implying that we are not certain of our sense perceptions. See here to know why we are in fact not brains in vats - s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/47008148/Against_the_Skeptics.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ56TQJRTWSMTNPEA&Expires=1471312592&Signature=K8I3Ixxei54C3thEXNdk4DY9J7o%3D&response-content-disposition=attachment%3B%20filename%3DAgainst_the_Skeptics_How_Thomist_Realism.pdf
God bless you my friend! Be well!
 
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