Billions of people have HD video cameras in their pockets: why aren't we seeing lots of miracles on video?

[tonyrey]

That is a variation of Godwin’s law. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Hell is Christianity’s bastard son that she likes to keep in the cellar. And given its alleged horror and irrevocability, my guess is that everyone is concerned by it to a certain extent. What if a perfect, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, uncreated being who is love can also turn into a vindictive tyrant with an unquenchable wrath if rightly provoked?

One thing is certain. You’re heading for a rapid exit from this forum! Sometimes picturesque language sounds good but it has unforeseen consequences…

 

[fladreamer]

Your notion of hell is clearly defective. Hell is not a place but a choice. To reject it is to underestimate the reality of evil which is often diabolical in this world let alone the next…

The choice of words does not matter a whole lot. Bottom line: lots and lots of feeble, finite, mortal human beings will be frustrated, angry, hopeless and terrified for ever. If a child decides to run towards a cliff, any sane human with a functioning heart (not the organ, mind you) will try to stop him any way they can. Not stand by with their arms folded, saying ‘‘Well he has no one to blame but himself, that was his choice’’. Which is precisely what you are saying here. Please don’t bother with he free will argument, I’ve heard it ad nauseam. It’s bogus. In the example I gave you, the child’s life overrides his capacity to choose. Any system that has eternal misery as a possible outcome is lame. I won’t be told by anyone who has a dog in this fight that it’s anything but lame.

 

[tonyrey]

God is Love.
Miracles happen when we do His will, which is to love.
The miracle is we ourselves and how we are transformed through His grace, to become ever more loving beings.

Everyone has the potential to love; you don’t have to be a Christian to do so.
We are judged based on what we do with what we are given.
Those who don’t see miracles or don’t believe in hell, don’t worry, just be good.
Chances are that before the end, when you review your life, you will be sorry for what you have and haven’t done.

I agree. Just our capacity for unselfish love is a miracle. When a person chooses to die for strangers they have never met it should be obvious they have superhuman power which transcends the will to survive…

 

[fladreamer]

One thing is certain. You’re heading for a rapid exit from this forum! Sometimes picturesque language sounds good but it has unforeseen consequences…

Am i not allowed to use metaphors and hyperboles? (rhetoric question BTW)

 

[PumpkinCookie]

There is plenty of medical evidence of miracles at Lourdes which are far more convincing than videos that could have been manipulated…

I advise you to be careful what you write unless you want to be banned because your post clearly violates the fifth forum conduct rule:

I’ve had plenty of discussions in which the other person resorts to abuse which amuses me but unlike me the mods have a job to do and have banned Catholics, let alone sceptics…

Am I not allowed to say that I believe some Catholic beliefs are ugly/absurd/unreasonable/maddening? You know what, you’re right, I broke the 5th rule.

Go ahead mods, ban me. And, please block my IP.

I’ve wasted entirely too much of my time and mental energy on this website. I regret this and I’m ashamed of myself.

Fortunately, it has been at least somewhat fruitful because I’ve realized that Catholicism is no longer worth discussing or investigating. My dialogue with believers here has deepened my conviction that this is a spiritual, intellectual, and moral dead end for me.

However, I am grateful that some people were willing to discuss and investigate: that’s more than I can say for the clergy and professional theologians with whom I’ve had discussions.

Unfortunately, this ideology is a deep trap for someone with obsessive tendencies like myself. I’m thoroughly embarrassed to have spent such a long time spinning in circles in this trap.

Thank you for helping me realize it is long past time to move forward. But, I will be on the lookout for miracles. If I catch one on video I’ll be sure to upload it.

 

[tonyrey]

Your notion of hell is clearly defective. Hell is not a place but a choice. To reject it is to underestimate the reality of evil which is often diabolical in this world let alone the next…

It matters when you’re offending people unnecessarily…

Bottom line: lots and lots of feeble, finite, mortal human beings will be frustrated, angry, hopeless and terrified for ever.

Whatever we say there is always a risk that it will be misinterpreted and distorted beyond recognition. It is well known that the Jews used imagery to convey their teaching, often in the form of parables as in the case of Dives and Lazarus.

If a child decides to run towards a cliff, any sane human with a functioning heart (not the organ, mind you) will try to stop him any way they can. Not stand by with their arms folded, saying ‘‘Well he has no one to blame but himself, that was his choice’’. Which is precisely what you are saying here.

On the contrary. If a child decides to run towards the cliff of pride, selfishness, laziness and corruption you don’t stand by and say nothing. In the worst cases you warn and punish so that it will not happen again.

Please don’t bother with he free will argument, I’ve heard it ad nauseam. It’s bogus. In the example I gave you, the child’s life overrides his capacity to choose.

Free will doesn’t always come into it. Often we have to be conditioned and condition others to live with respect and love for others even if it means inflicting misery. These days discipline is neglected but I learnt how valuable it is when I was at the receiving end doing two years’ national service in a hospital. Curiously I finished up by having more respect for both myself and the superiors who treated me firmly but fairly. Even as adults we often behave like children, put ourselves before others and need to learn the hard way.

Any system that has eternal misery as a possible outcome is lame. I won’t be told by anyone who has a dog in this fight that it’s anything but lame.

Hell has its compensations! Otherwise no one would choose to be isolated from God. To have a kingdom of one’s own is a very tempting prospect even though it has serious drawbacks. There are many examples of such cases in this world. In fact I believe both heaven and hell begin here and now according to the way we develop either positively or negatively but as the topic is miracles I shall leave it there (even though all of us are living miracles

 

[RCinMT]

Very well put. But the source of my perplexity, and I would venture to say Vera_Ljuba’s as well, is the disproportion between a solitary sin, a single act, not particularly vicious or heinous to the human eye, and an eternity of misery, torment and despair as a result? God being perfectly just, why doesn’t he weigh the good deeds versus the bad deeds, and reward or punish accordingly? One skipped mass and you’re eternal cell mates with Marc Dutroux, Wolfgang Přiklopil and Aleister Crowley? To me that is a parody of justice. It’s even lower than human justice.

Going now. Will resume my devil’s advocate function very soon! Bye for now.

For those of us who hold God to be the Creator we should all be trying our very best at every moment. To ask for levels of punishment that coincide with man’s idea of justice is the root of the problem: God doesn’t work at human levels and has ordered things in a way we cannot understand.

Let me ask you a question: what’s the impetus for me not to give into all of my base temporal desires if the consequence of my choices to sin ultimately lead to me sharing the same fate as the person who fought against his/her desires and lived life according to God’s principals?

Also, regarding the recurring question you pose about the guy missing mass: you know that person can complete the sacrament of penance, yes?

 

[RCinMT]

The choice of words does not matter a whole lot. Bottom line: lots and lots of feeble, finite, mortal human beings will be frustrated, angry, hopeless and terrified for ever. If a child decides to run towards a cliff, any sane human with a functioning heart (not the organ, mind you) will try to stop him any way they can. Not stand by with their arms folded, saying ‘‘Well he has no one to blame but himself, that was his choice’’. Which is precisely what you are saying here. Please don’t bother with he free will argument, I’ve heard it ad nauseam. It’s bogus. In the example I gave you, the child’s life overrides his capacity to choose. Any system that has eternal misery as a possible outcome is lame. I won’t be told by anyone who has a dog in this fight that it’s anything but lame.

Nobody would allow a child to do that. But once a person has reached adulthood and has developed full reasoning abilities and has also been warned and is fully aware of the consequences of running off the cliff then it’s a different story.

If you know God’s laws but refuse to believe in God or believe but refuse to follow the teachings, whose fault is that? Free will is absolutely a coherent argument in this instance because a person of sound mind who has been made fully aware of the consequences of his/her actions has got to face the consequences of his/her decisions. Your counter argument–that I’ve seen–is that it’s not fair to hold us to these standards because we don’t know that there’s a hell but if we knew definitively we would act accordingly. The words have been passed on through the ages, there have been witnesses. I don’t need to be transported in time back to the Holocaust or the fall of Carthage or the Franco-Prussian War to believe these things happened. It’s been documented and testified to by witnesses. Why should I believe that the apostles and first hand witnesses to Christ’s life and death are unreliable when I take so many other witnesses of historical events as truthful?

 

[fladreamer]

For those of us who hold God to be the Creator we should all be trying our very best at every moment. To ask for levels of punishment that coincide with man’s idea of justice is the root of the problem: God doesn’t work at human levels and has ordered things in a way we cannot understand.

Let me ask you a question: what’s the impetus for me not to give into all of my base temporal desires if the consequence of my choices to sin ultimately lead to me sharing the same fate as the person who fought against his/her desires and lived life according to God’s principals?

Also, regarding the recurring question you pose about the guy missing mass: you know that person can complete the sacrament of penance, yes?

Just because God, although he could have made things vastly differently, made eternal hell the only possible alternative to heaven does not make hell less wrong and God less callous. That’s the essential problem with salvation: a binary system. God ought to go back to the drawing board. I repeat: I don’t want everybody in heaven but i want no one in hell. I also repeat: omnipotence, omnibenevolence, hell. These 3 can’t coexist. At least 1 has to go.

Yes. But if he dies without either perfect contrition or having received absolution for that sin, he will go straight to hell.

 

[fladreamer]

Nobody would allow a child to do that. But once a person has reached adulthood and has developed full reasoning abilities and has also been warned and is fully aware of the consequences of running off the cliff then it’s a different story.

Concretely, what do you do with your 20 year old son who’s running towards the cliff? As for me, I do the utmost to stop him, even at the risk of dying myself with him. And I’m evil according to Jesus (God). When a man in unrepented mortal sin dies, God casually ratifies his choice and sends him to hell. ‘‘Away from me, ye accursed.’’

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

So, the answer to your question is a resoundingly loud: ME.
I have experienced God’s love. Many a time. And yet I choose to reject it and sin.
Many a time.

I am sorry to hear that. But I am still in the dark of how can anyone reject “love”? I can imagine a scenario like this: My 3 years old niece comes to visit when I am in a very bad mood, angry at the whole world for some dumb reason (I can be as stupid as anyone else). As she comes with open arms and offers a kiss as a greeting, there is no way that I would reject her. Her love would wipe away all the bad emotions. And I am sure that the impact of God’s love is zillion times more uplifting and consoling that the love of that small child. Now, far be it from me to doubt the sincerity of your word. But it is my suspicion that you never actually experienced God’s love… you just believe you did. I apologize up front for these words. I would not want to insinuate any dishonesty on your part. I just think that you are mistaken… and there is nothing wrong with being mistaken.

What would that look like?

How would I know what method would God choose? But I trust God that he will allow me to follow Justice Stewart when he talked about pornography: “I will know it when I see it”.

Is there something wrong with bringing up a BLOG as a **proof **for the immortality of the soul?

The problem is that a blog is just an unsupported personal opinion of someone, on the same level as a “personal revelation” would be. Of course the real problem is that THE blog (you linked) is contrary to the Catholic concept that only God exists necessarily, and everything else can only exist as long as he is willing to sustain them. Maybe you missed those 8 points which I brought up at the end of my previous post. I would be very grateful to you, if you enumerated those points and show which ones are erroneous, and for what reason. I think that I correctly quoted the proper Catholic teachings.

 

[PRmerger]

I am sorry to hear that. But I am still in the dark of how can anyone reject “love”?

Well, since you don’t even seem to know how to recognize it (see below), I doubt that we can continue on this vein.

How would I know what method would God choose?

Annnnnd here it is, folks. Again. Another example of the atheist saying, “I demand A, B and C!”

But when you ask for some clear delineation of what A, B and C would look like, all that is provided is…

Obfuscation.

sigh

 

[PRmerger]

Now come on, how can you possibly disagree with me when I’ve not said anything?

Of course you have.

In posting that verse from Matthew (which, I enjoy pointing out to you, every time, you know is theopneustos because you are giving your tacit submission to my Church), you didn’t post it randomly. You were saying: the soul is not immortal because God says in Matthew (which I know to be the inspired Word of God for ONE REASON only: because the CC said so) that He can destroy souls.

So I disagree with you, inocente.

To say you haven’t “said anything” is, frankly, bemusing in its absurdity.

You’re not posting random Bible verses without any meaning behind them, like this:

“Therefore, whether it be I or they,
so we preach and so you believed.”–1 Cor 15

“The Lord takes delight in his people.”–Psalm 149

You posted a Bible verse to make a point.

And I disagree with your point.

You were quite wrong in what you were asserting.

QED.

 

[PRmerger]

The problem is that a blog is just an unsupported personal opinion of someone, on the same level as a “personal revelation” would be.

While some blogs may be “unsupported personal opinion”, true, but that is not to be construed as: blogs are “unsupported personal opinion ONLY”.

I think the error of the Fundamentalist ONLYs is rampant, amusingly and ironically, among atheists as well as fundamentalists.

It is so peculiar to see folks insert ONLYs where none are required.

-the Bible ONLY
-faith ONLY
-Science ONLY
-English ONLY
-Jesus was a man ONLY

That’s what makes Catholicism so formidable to argue against. We accept the BOTH/AND.

So blogs can be both person opinion AND supported and cogently presented arguments for truth.

And that’s what the Catholic Answer apologist blog author Tim Staples is doing.

Of course the real problem is that THE blog (you linked) is contrary to the Catholic concept that only God exists necessarily, and everything else can only exist as long as he is willing to sustain them.

Oh, dear. Be careful, Vera, about insulting your hosts here on the CAFs.

Tim Staples in a Catholic Apologist employed by your host. In fact, he is the Director of Apologetics here.

So it’s not very wise to come here and say that the Catholic Apologist who is the Director of Apologetics on the very forum you’re participating in, is stating things “contrary to the Catholic concept”.



You can be pretty much assured that what he posts is “consonant with the Catholic concept”.

 

[PRmerger]

And I am sure that the impact of God’s love is zillion times more uplifting and consoling that the love of that small child.

I think, perhaps, a better metaphor for God’s love (especially if one is familiar with Scripture) would be that of a husband and wife.

Now, to be sure, there are references in holy writ of the people of God being like a “small child”, but no one who has even an elementary exposure to Scripture can deny that the metaphor of prominence is that of a spousal relationship between God and His people.

Now, far be it from me to doubt the sincerity of your word. But it is my suspicion that you never actually experienced God’s love… you just believe you did. I apologize up front for these words. I would not want to insinuate any dishonesty on your part. I just think that you are mistaken… and there is nothing wrong with being mistaken.

Interesting.

I am going to take a chiral approach here and offer this:

As I referenced above, the better icon in this discussion is the spousal relationship (SOOOO many references in the Bible–best to just read it in its entirety and you will see this, Vera).

And it is my suspicion that even if* you’ve never actually experience the unconditional love of a spouse (or, for that matter, of a parent), you could project what that would be like.

And then you can see, from watching others who may have experienced this unconditional love, that people STILL reject that love from time to time. Despite their best efforts, they fight with their beloved, they choose themselves over others.

So it is my suspicion that even if* you’ve never actually experienced this type of unconditional love, you could understand that folks reject it.

All the time.

*even if: no commentary is being made about your actual experiences in childhood or with adult relationships. It is simply a rhetorical narrative I am proposing for the purposes of making clearer to you how love works sometimes.

And I would not want to insinuate any dishonesty on your part, but I wonder if the inability to understand how one could reject love is simply a pretense? Yes?

 

[inocente]

Of course you have.

In posting that verse from Matthew (which, I enjoy pointing out to you, every time, you know is theopneustos because you are giving your tacit submission to my Church), you didn’t post it randomly. You were saying: the soul is not immortal because God says in Matthew (which I know to be the inspired Word of God for ONE REASON only: because the CC said so) that He can destroy souls.

So I disagree with you, inocente.

To say you haven’t “said anything” is, frankly, bemusing in its absurdity.

You’re not posting random Bible verses without any meaning behind them, like this:

“Therefore, whether it be I or they,
so we preach and so you believed.”–1 Cor 15

“The Lord takes delight in his people.”–Psalm 149

You posted a Bible verse to make a point.

And I disagree with your point.

You were quite wrong in what you were asserting.

QED.

You wrote 157 words there, but only needed the nine I’ve highlighted in a fetching shade of blue. Thanks for admitting God says in Matthew that He can destroy souls.

#godisstronger

 

[PRmerger]

But, please stop the nonsense about comparing the soul’s alleged properties to the definition of certain geometrical objects.

It’s almost as if…it’s an irrefutable point being made against your argument, no?

“God can do anything! He can even make this, using topology, be called a triangle! Yep That’s my argument”

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

The above is now declared to be a triangle in the atheist world!

Do you folks see what must be embraced in order to reject the arguments of theists?

Such nonsense. sad face

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents:

God’s love is not like that of a three-year-old coming towards us with open arms oblivious to who we are and what is in our souls.
His compassion includes the knowledge of our sinfulness and our circumstances.

When we, who have rejected love by our choices, come to Him with contrition, like the prodigal son, we will be greeted with open arms.
It is the nature of sin that it depletes us; with the dwindling of goodness, which is life, beauty and joy, most are motivated to leave that life behind.
We can return to the Source of that goodness, love, a new person.

Let’s imagine possibilities:
Saddam Hussein goes to his hanging, clutching his copy of the Quran, repentant, knowing what he deserves, hoping that God is all merciful.
Muammar Gaddafi Is kicked and punched, a scared, impotent old man, hated, dying as he had lived; no remorse, blind panic, the reality that underlies the hubris and brutality of the tyrant.
I am using these extreme imaginary examples because we tend to avoid the log in our own eye.

God’s love includes justice. There is no way around that other than through Jesus Christ. Through His incarnation, death and resurrection, God has made it possible for all to be saved. We must come to Him in self denial, giving ourselves to Him, He who gives us everything.

 

[RCinMT]

Concretely, what do you do with your 20 year old son who’s running towards the cliff? As for me, I do the utmost to stop him, even at the risk of dying myself with him. And I’m evil according to Jesus (God). When a man in unrepented mortal sin dies, God casually ratifies his choice and sends him to hell. ‘‘Away from me, ye accursed.’’

God always forgives when forgiveness is sought. The kind of rigidity which you sight can be mitigated. I asked a priest recently what exactly I am to do if I should go to confession Saturday and die in a car wreck on Tuesday, knowing that as a human I’ve certainly committed sin in between those days. His reply was that it’s not a bad idea to say an Act of Contrition each night and/or morning and that in that way God at least knows we’re sorry for our sins, that we’re mindful of our sins.

Regarding the 20 year son: you do what you can to help set the son straight (which God has done and is doing…repeatedly). God does try to stop us from running off the cliff period (forget dying in a state of mortal sin) but if somebody insists on sinning and on trying to run off a cliff every day then it shows a hardened heart.God knows our hearts and never gives up on us…the son in this scenario has given up on God.

Let’s turn this onto you: Applying human logic (which trying to do with God is useless and foolish), tell me if this logic works:

1. New company is formed;
2. Company issues a handbook which indicates that employees caught stealing will be immediately terminated and prosecuted;
3. Employee X is caught stealing and is called into a meeting with her supervisor. The charges against X are detailed (it’s caught on camera so having the discussion isn’t even necessary but the supervisor wants to give X a change to explain).

Are you honestly telling me that Employee X could mount a reasonable defense on the following lines: Yes, I stole and I’m not sorry that I did. But it’s a new company, I’ve never heard of or seen anybody at this company stealing and ergo I didn’t know that you would actually terminate my employment when you caught me. So now that I know, I won’t steal any more and I think I should be allowed to continue my employment here.

You’re suggesting that this is actually a logical and rational defense.

 

[anon98328916]

I have not read this whole thread and I’m not going to, but maybe it’s simply because a miracle cannot be recording on video. If someone had, say, an apparition of the Blessed Mother and whipped out his cell phone to record it, her image might simply not record.

I agree. When Our Blessed Mother appeared at knock with St Joseph and St John…some of the people their who witnessed the apparition started to move towards Our Lady and she started to move back from them. Same of it happened today only people would have phones out and God wouldn’t want this. Jesus’s had this to say about having faith and believing!

28 Thomas replied, ‘My Lord and my God!’

29 Jesus said to him: You believe because you can see me. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.

30 There were many other signs that Jesus worked in the sight of the disciples, but they are not recorded in this book.

31 These are recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing this you may have life through his name."