Billions of people have HD video cameras in their pockets: why aren't we seeing lots of miracles on video?

[PRmerger]

“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” - Matt 10

Wha??? You don’t believe in the immortality of the soul?

Firstly, how do you know that this is what God has revealed? Who decided this?

Secondly, if what you’re asserting is that this verse suggests that the soul can be destroyed (as it applies in the context of this discussion), then what do you do about all the other verses in Scripture that proclaim the immortality of the soul?

Thankfully, Catholicism doesn’t take verses out of context and takes the Word of God in its entirety.

 

[inocente]

“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” - Matt 10

Wha??? You don’t believe in the immortality of the soul?

That’s not me speaking. If you disagree with the speaker, take it up with him.

 

[fladreamer]

That’s not me speaking. If you disagree with the speaker, take it up with him.

Fallen Catholic speaking. I think if we look at all the passages in the OT about hell, assuming its message is consistent, then ‘‘kill’’ and ‘‘destroy’’ do NOT mean kill and destroy. They mean something along the lines of ‘‘ruin’’. Unless ‘‘And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever’’. Or perhaps the OT is consistent and ‘‘forever and ever’’ means ‘‘for a mighty long time’’ and ‘‘kill’’ and ‘‘destroy’’ mean just that. Since I’m not rejoicing at the thought of anyone being tormented eternally, I will favour the second explanation. It is also what is genuinely compatible with God’s attributes of omnipotence and omnibenevolence.

Since God foreknew that many would fall short of the standard (to enter heaven) , it’s puzzling to me why he ‘‘gifted’’ us with an immortal soul, when a conditionally immortal ‘‘soul’’* would have been a far and away more just and merciful system.

*Not a soul. In many aspects like a soul, but not a soul properly speaking, as we all know a soul is necessarily, yet not intrinsically, immortal. For clarification purposes, I shall call it a quasi-soul. A quasi-soul is not guaranteed immortality, a soul is.

 

[fladreamer]

That’s not me speaking. If you disagree with the speaker, take it up with him.

Fallen Catholic speaking. I think if we look at all the passages in the OT about hell, assuming its message is consistent, then ‘‘kill’’ and ‘‘destroy’’ do NOT mean kill and destroy. They mean something along the lines of ‘‘ruin’’.
‘‘And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever’’ strongly suggests a ruin more than a ceasing to exist. Unless '‘And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever’ actually means ‘‘for a mighty long time’’ ,then ‘‘kill’’ and ‘‘destroy’’ would mean just that, . Since I’m not rejoicing at the thought of anyone being tormented eternally, I will favour the second explanation. It is also what is genuinely compatible with God’s attributes of omnipotence and omnibenevolence. Do Baptists generally believe that the souls of the reprobates will cease to exist after various periods of punishment/retribution/atonement/expiation?

Since God foreknew that many would fall short of the standard (to enter heaven) , it’s puzzling to me (and to lots of people) why he ‘‘gifted’’ us with an immortal soul, when a conditionally immortal ‘‘soul’’* would have been a far and away more just and merciful system.

*Not properly a soul. For clarification’s sake, I shall call it a quasi-soul. In most aspects it is identical to a soul, only difference being the guarantee of immortality attached to a soul is not attached to a quasi-soul. But I insist: it is NOT a ‘‘soul’’. Thus God would be free (with a quasi-soul) to either sustain it eternally or to stop sustaining it when he sees fit/when justice has been served etc. Only the people who reciprocate God’s love get to live forever.

 

[inocente]

Fallen Catholic speaking. I think if we look at all the passages in the OT about hell, assuming its message is consistent, then ‘‘kill’’ and ‘‘destroy’’ do NOT mean kill and destroy. They mean something along the lines of ‘‘ruin’’.
‘‘And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever’’ strongly suggests a ruin more than a ceasing to exist. Unless '‘And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever’ actually means ‘‘for a mighty long time’’ ,then ‘‘kill’’ and ‘‘destroy’’ would mean just that, . Since I’m not rejoicing at the thought of anyone being tormented eternally, I will favour the second explanation. It is also what is genuinely compatible with God’s attributes of omnipotence and omnibenevolence. Do Baptists generally believe that the souls of the reprobates will cease to exist after various periods of punishment/retribution/atonement/expiation?

Since God foreknew that many would fall short of the standard (to enter heaven) , it’s puzzling to me (and to lots of people) why he ‘‘gifted’’ us with an immortal soul, when a conditionally immortal ‘‘soul’’* would have been a far and away more just and merciful system.

*Not properly a soul. For clarification’s sake, I shall call it a quasi-soul. In most aspects it is identical to a soul, only difference being the guarantee of immortality attached to a soul is not attached to a quasi-soul. But I insist: it is NOT a soul.

Well, the verse is from the NT, not the OT, and the speaker is Jesus, aka God, and he says he can destroy both soul and body in hell. He doesn’t say he will, but he says he can.

That was my only point, that he says he has the ability.

On this or another thread in the last few days, someone likened heaven to Disney. An eternity in Disney would be hell indeed. After having to listen to this for the first billion years, a spot of torment would come as a very welcome light relief.

 

[fladreamer]

Well, the verse is from the NT, not the OT, and the speaker is Jesus, aka God, and he says he can destroy both soul and body in hell. He doesn’t say he will, but he says he can.

That was my only point, that he says he has the ability.

On this or another thread in the last few days, someone likened heaven to Disney. An eternity in Disney would be hell indeed. After having to listen to this for the first billion years, a spot of torment would come as a very welcome light relief.

ha!ha!

I stand corrected. i typed OT thinking NT. My bad.

Your point is well taken about ‘‘can’’ vs ‘‘will’’. So we may possess ‘‘quasi-souls’’ after all?

 

[Bradski]

And in breaking news…the White House has just announced that the death penalty will be made illegal throughout the US. We now cross to the Rose Garden where the President is speaking to the press:

…which will come into effect immediately. This means that NO prisoner, regardless of their crime, will be sent to Death Row. This barbaric practice stops now.

Mr. President, what will the sentences be for those committing crimes in the worst category?

Well Dave, we are expanding the list of crimes in those categories in the first instance. They will now include blasphemy, masturbation, using a condom, sodomy and a few others where we are working through the details. And for those committing those crimes, where it is obvious that there is no chance of rehabilitation, then they will bear the consequences.

Which are, Mr. President?

Dave, we will be using all aspects of modern medical technology to keep these people alive as long as possible. And for the rest of their lives, they will be tortured incessantly.

But Mr. President…

And I must insist. This is not a threat to law abiding citizens. It’s a promise to all those who might consider doing the wrong thing. Anyone who finds themselves in this position has placed themselves in harms way. And we expect full backing from all religious organisations.

But Mr. President, isn’t this a case of double jeopardy? Won’t these people be punished twice? Once in this life and again in the hereafter?

Dave, do you really expect anyone to draw comparisons with a few years of temporary pain in this life and an eternity of torment in the next?

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

And in breaking news…the White House has just announced that the death penalty will be made illegal throughout the US. We now cross to the Rose Garden where the President is speaking to the press:

…which will come into effect immediately. This means that NO prisoner, regardless of their crime, will be sent to Death Row. This barbaric practice stops now.

Mr. President, what will the sentences be for those committing crimes in the worst category?

Well Dave, we are expanding the list of crimes in those categories in the first instance. They will now include blasphemy, masturbation, using a condom, sodomy and a few others where we are working through the details. And for those committing those crimes, where it is obvious that there is no chance of rehabilitation, then they will bear the consequences.

Which are, Mr. President?

Dave, we will be using all aspects of modern medical technology to keep these people alive as long as possible. And for the rest of their lives, they will be tortured incessantly.

But Mr. President…

And I must insist. This is not a threat to law abiding citizens. It’s a promise to all those who might consider doing the wrong thing. Anyone who finds themselves in this position has placed themselves in harms way. And we expect full backing from all religious organisations.

But Mr. President, isn’t this a case of double jeopardy? Won’t these people be punished twice? Once in this life and again in the hereafter?

Dave, do you really expect anyone to draw comparisons with a few years of temporary pain in this life and an eternity of torment in the next?

Oh, Brad, this was just too funny!

Vera_Ljuba

 

[PRmerger]

That’s not me speaking. If you disagree with the speaker, take it up with him.

I disagree with you.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Each and every time we sin, Vera, that’s what we do.

Did you actually read what I posted? The question was: “do you have an example of anyone, who experienced God’s love and rejected it”? The important part is the word: “experienced”.

Speaking for myself, I experienced love many times in my life, starting with my parents and family, all the way to friends, and my lovers. There was an outpouring of love from the priests I talked to. Of course these different instances of love were of different nature. But all of them manifested themselves in actions. There was no doubt that their actions were the result of their love, and I have never rejected it. Why should I have? It is great to experience love.

Unfortunately, I never experienced anything that I could have interpreted as God’s love. But one thing is certain: if I would experience God’s love, I would never turn it down. I talked to some people, who said that there were times in their life, when they were unhappy, sad or depressed. Then they had this feeling which they described as if an angel had touched them and they felt peace and happiness. Now, whether it was God’s hand that touched them, or not, I cannot say. But none of them “rejected” that feeling.

As I said before, I cannot imagine anyone, who would turn down God’s love IF they experienced it. That is why I presented my question.

Yes, Vera. A human soul MUST be immortal.

catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/seven-proofs-for-the-natural-immortality-of-the-human-soul

Why on Earth do you bring up some BLOG as a proof for the immortality of the soul?

Since you seem to have missed the central point of my stance, I will repeat it for your edification:

1. Only God is eternal / immortal by his nature.
2. No one else possesses this ability.
3. Everyone else is maintained in existence by God’s volitional action.
4. God is sovereign, and can do as he pleases with the whole universe.
5. If God so desires, he can withdraw the sustenance from the universe (matter / energy / humans / souls / angers / demons) and everything will flicker out of existence.
6. Therefore, the so-called immortality of the soul is contingent upon God’s will to keep it in existence.
7. Therefore, IF and only IF God decides to keep the souls, they will continue to exist.
8. If God desires that a certain soul should not exist any longer, he can stop sustaining this soul.

If you wish to argue with these points, I will be happy to see your arguments. But, please stop the nonsense about comparing the soul’s alleged properties to the definition of certain geometrical objects.

 

[PRmerger]

Did you actually read what I posted? The question was: “do you have an example of anyone, who experienced God’s love and rejected it”? The important part is the word: “experienced”.

Fair enough.

So, the answer to your question is a resoundingly loud: ME.

I have experienced God’s love. Many a time. And yet I choose to reject it and sin.

Many a time.

Unfortunately, I never experienced anything that I could have interpreted as God’s love.

What would that look like?

 

[PRmerger]

Why on Earth do you bring up some BLOG as a proof for the immortality of the soul?

???

Is there something wrong with bringing up a BLOG as a **proof **for the immortality of the soul?

What would you like to see?

And please offer me some reasons why a*** BLOG*** as a **proof **for the immortality of the soul is to be dismissed.

 

[fladreamer]

1. Only God is eternal / immortal by his nature.
2. No one else possesses this ability.
3. Everyone else is maintained in existence by God’s volitional action.
4. God is sovereign, and can do as he pleases with the whole universe.
5. If God so desires, he can withdraw the sustenance from the universe (matter / energy / humans / souls / angers / demons) and everything will flicker out of existence.
6. Therefore, the so-called immortality of the soul is contingent upon God’s will to keep it in existence.
7. Therefore, IF and only IF God decides to keep the souls, they will continue to exist.
8. If God desires that a certain soul should not exist any longer, he can stop sustaining this soul.

The triangle analogy is very likely to rear its ugly head again, I’m afraid.

The truth, I think, is that God is under no obligation to sustain the existence of all souls (read ‘‘quasi-souls’’ for PRmerger) indefinitely. He does so because he wills it, period. In the case of damned souls, why does he will it? ‘‘God is infinite, therefore an unpardoned offense against an infinite being deserves an infinite punishment’’. ‘’ God is so good that he opted to make the punishment (hell) infinite only in duration (eternal or perpetual) and not in intensity.’’ Also, God is big on glory (being glorified) and it is said that ‘‘in the end everyone will glorify him: the elect will glorify his mercy, the damned, his justice.’’

But everything I just stated and paraphrased does not belong in a sales pitch whereby you’re trying to sell God as this loving, tender-hearted daddy (abba), or to sell/sugarcoat hell as this place where people send themselves to and where, somehow, they get benefits. I don’t believe in any justification of hell, I’m just parroting some of the stuff I read over the years about hell in a quest ‘‘to soothe the thoughts that plagued me so’’. * Let no one hold their breath: it didn’t work.

*Lyrics to a song by Sting.

 

[inocente]

“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” - Matt 10
PRmerger;14167937:

Wha??? You don’t believe in the immortality of the soul?
inocente;14167997:

That’s not me speaking. If you disagree with the speaker, take it up with him.
PRmerger;14169236:

I disagree with you.

Now come on, how can you possibly disagree with me when I’ve not said anything?

Do you disagree with the verse?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Why do threads around here always devolve into discussions about hell? You know what would solve this controversy?

Some miracles.

On video.

Y’know, just a couple. Shouldn’t be too hard:

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

So does no one actually believe? Or was John maybe not reporting the words of Jesus correctly? Are all the miracles hiding somewhere?

Though the doctrine of hell is ugly, demoralizing, unreasonable, absurd, and maddening: with the right miracles, we would be forced to accept it as the truth, right?

I mean think about it: John says some guy claims to be God, commands us to eat him, and tells us if we don’t believe this and do that: God himself will banish us to a (metaphorical) lake of fire where we’ll experience endless pain of sense and spirit (though not necessarily on a real BBQ…cough cough…fundamentalists ). John also says this guy claims his followers will perform wondrous miracles as proof of his claims.

So…

Where are they?

 

[Aloysium]

God is Love.
Miracles happen when we do His will, which is to love.
The miracle is we ourselves and how we are transformed through His grace, to become ever more loving beings.

Everyone has the potential to love; you don’t have to be a Christian to do so.
We are judged based on what we do with what we are given.
Those who don’t see miracles or don’t believe in hell, don’t worry, just be good.
Chances are that before the end, when you review your life, you will be sorry for what you have and haven’t done.

 

[fladreamer]

Why do threads around here always devolve into discussions about hell?

That is a variation of Godwin’s law. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Hell is Christianity’s bastard son that she likes to keep in the cellar. And given its alleged horror and irrevocability, my guess is that everyone is concerned by it to a certain extent. What if a perfect, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, uncreated being who is love can also turn into a vindictive tyrant with an unquenchable wrath if rightly provoked?

 

[tonyrey]

That is a variation of Godwin’s law. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Hell is Christianity’s bastard son that she likes to keep in the cellar. And given its alleged horror and irrevocability, my guess is that everyone is concerned by it to a certain extent. What if a perfect, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, uncreated being who is love can also turn into a vindictive tyrant with an unquenchable wrath if rightly provoked?

Your notion of hell is clearly defective. Hell is not a place but a choice. To reject it is to underestimate the reality of evil which is often diabolical in this world let alone the next…

 

[tonyrey]

Why do threads around here always devolve into discussions about hell? You know what would solve this controversy?

Some miracles.

On video.

Y’know, just a couple. Shouldn’t be too hard:

So does no one actually believe? Or was John maybe not reporting the words of Jesus correctly? Are all the miracles hiding somewhere?

Though the doctrine of hell is ugly, demoralizing, unreasonable, absurd, and maddening: with the right miracles, we would be forced to accept it as the truth, right?

I mean think about it: John says some guy claims to be God, commands us to eat him, and tells us if we don’t believe this and do that: God himself will banish us to a (metaphorical) lake of fire where we’ll experience endless pain of sense and spirit (though not necessarily on a real BBQ…cough cough…fundamentalists ). John also says this guy claims his followers will perform wondrous miracles as proof of his claims.

So…

Where are they?

There is plenty of medical evidence of miracles at Lourdes which are far more convincing than videos that could have been manipulated…

I advise you to be careful what you write unless you want to be banned because your post clearly violates the fifth forum conduct rule:

Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.

I’ve had plenty of discussions in which the other person resorts to abuse which amuses me but unlike me the mods have a job to do and have banned Catholics, let alone sceptics…

 

[tonyrey]

…5) If God so desires, he can withdraw the sustenance from the universe (matter / energy / humans / souls / angers / demons) and everything will flicker out of existence.
6) Therefore, the so-called immortality of the soul is contingent upon God’s will to keep it in existence.
7) Therefore, IF and only IF God decides to keep the souls, they will continue to exist.
8) If God desires that a certain soul should not exist any longer, he can stop sustaining this soul.

Your concept of God is that He is the Destroyer as well as the Creator! It would seem He is inconsistent and doesn’t know what He is doing…