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tonyrey
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God doesn’t decree anything about hell! It depends on those who choose to exist for themselves whether or not they reject their Creator decisively. If there is any doubt they opt for purgatory…
Billions of people have HD video cameras in their pockets: why aren't we seeing lots of miracles on video?
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PRmerger
Guest
It’s a distinction without a difference, when it comes to discussing theological truths, flad.
The soul must be sustained by something–that’s true.
But that’s not the same thing as saying that God could destroy it.
The concept of a triangle must be sustained by something, but that doesn’t mean that God could declare, "Now a triangle must be 4 sides!
Well, only in the same way that you could say that “God has tied his own hands in not being able to create a 4 sided triangle”.
But that sounds like a high school boy’s objection to God, doesn’t it?
The high school boy who thinks he’s thought up something clever by saying, “God couldn’t create a rock so big he can’t lift it himself, therefore God isn’t omnipotent. Hah!”
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PRmerger
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Not only gracious, but grace-ful.
The souls have 2 choices, turn towards the Light or turn away. They choose to turn away, because turning towards the Light is even more tormenting for them.
That seems to be the case even now with some folks here on earth–or have you not found this to be so?
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PRmerger
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Ah. I think I understand what you’re saying: how could Jews, thousands of years before the Incarnation, be responsible for turning away from Christ when they didn’t know that He was God?
The answer is: they weren’t. They were judged according to the Law given to them at the time.
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PRmerger
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A finite punishment, as a preface for infinite joy would be no punishment whatsoever.
Surely you see that, flad!
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PRmerger
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fladreamer
Guest
The souls is a living thing, it stops existing if it is not actively sustained. A triangle is a word that we ascribe to a geometric form that has three angles, hence the name. But if all life was extinguished from the entire universe, a triangle would remain a triangle even if there was around to call it a triangle.
I don’t deny or try and challenge God’s attribute of omnipotence. Never have to the best of my recollection. But since God owes us nothing I think the system he created, the economy of salvation, is far from ideal. I don’t think that as things are we have the best version of creation that we could have had. Mind you I understand we have inherited a fallen nature. What I mean is broader than that. Jesus’ sacrifice should have restored more of the pre-fall human nature. It shouldn’t take me 25 years of begging for God to finally get around to tweaking my brain chemistry so that I don’t have to live in a pit of anxiety, depression, shame and inadequacy. I wish the potter had taken a day off some 40 some years ago. If my baptism had restored more of the prefall state, I would not have seen life as a punishment and God as the ultimate tyrant. My faith has been lost irrevocably. I’m like Gollum, thinking God is on my side one minute, then looking back and looking ahead realizing I’m esentially on my own. I wish I had the peace of annihilation to look forward to.
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fladreamer
Guest
I don’t know about that. Thing is, I never said that. I mentioned a temporary hell, a finite punishment, at the end of which God does not actively destroy a soul but stops to actively sustain it. The way a care giver stops an extraordinary treatment.following which the patient dies. The care giver did not, however, destroy the patient. If Pope Francis makes annihilation a binding doctrine tomorrow, I vow, from that day on, to never doubt God’s omnibenevolence ever again. Solemn pledge.
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Vera_Ljuba
Guest
This is the crucial question. The deists believe that God set the ball rolling (created the raw material and established the laws of nature) and then the rest simply works according to the laws, with some pesky free will thrown in for fun. That is as far from the Catholic concept as it can be. According to the teaching of Catholicism, only God exists unconditionally, and he maintains everything else in existence… which means that withdrawing that sustaining force would make the sustained entity flicker out of existence… be it the whole universe, or the angels, the demons, or the “souls”. Nothing can exist if God does not actively sustains it. That is the Catholic teaching.
As such the phrase “immortal soul” does not mean that the soul exists on its own right - without God’s sustaining will - rather that it is “immortal” as long as God sustains it. I am astonished to see that there are Catholics do not understand one of the basic teachings of their own faith. Are they THAT poorly catechized?
Of course the picture is somewhat more complicated. I think it is PR who asked: “where should God put the soul of those people who do not want to be with God, in eternal bliss”? And again, the black-and-white type of thinking shows up: “Eternal bliss, vs. eternal torture”? What about a middle ground? Is that too much to ask from an omnipotent God? Of course, we already live in a world where there is no beatific vision, but there is no ongoing torture either.
Be as it may, the concept of hell and eternal suffering is a major roadblock and it prevents many people from embracing Catholicism. Come to think of it, why should the ability to repent be restricted to our world? What would be wrong with being confronted with the reality and finally understanding why certain actions are wrong? Only having full information can lead to full responsibility. What happens to our cherished “free will”? No more free will after death?
No kidding. And the guesses are not convincing. Why should one burn in hell for eternity just because one missed a mass one time? By the way, why should ONE measly sin be considered to be a FULL rejection of God?
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PRmerger
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And, as I’ve been saying, ad nauseum, that this is as nonsensical as saying God could make a 4-sided triangle.
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Aloysium
Guest
From Fred’s post,
That said, all this technology and effort is ineffective in piercing the veil that covers the reality of our being. Soothsaying, condemned by the Church, has been taken up by physical science, which may tell us of our impact the world, the organisms it feeds and houses and even the weather, but can say nothing of its purpose. About our world and we ourselves, there is only the silence of meaningless particles colliding in space.
As to our salvation, to know the truth, do what is good, witness the beauty about us and become truly happy, this is all relegated to the realm of opinion.
On the world stage, the connection with reality becomes ever denser, darker and absurd.
So, we have in this thread a cynical challenge to what has become merely the idea of a god, understood as one of power no less, to give us a miracle through the media, the very tool by which we would procure our own revelation.
Secular society, deaf to the message of God is the cause of pseudoreligious fanatical violence, springing up today as the Zealots arose in the days of the Romans. The history of mankind is playing itself out, repeating what has not been learned. As the Romans reined in the Christians, so too do we find this happening today with society’s governing bodies usurp duties that belong to the Church, such as conducting marriage, providing sex and moral education as individuals ignore their duty to God and we see within society, superficial tolerance masking indifference replacing love. Those activities and rituals belong within the intimacy of relationships between individuals within their families and with God. Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, but he grabs what does not belong to him.
Nothing like a good after-dinner rant to perk oneself up and help the digestion.
From Pope Benedict’s Jesus of Nazareth: From the Baptism to the Transfiguration about the social conditions at time of Jesus’ coming:
We live in what has been described as a global village, interconnected by instantaneous electronic communication. Its sophisticated capacities to transmit information gives us a sense of being in touch with what is happening everywhere on the globe, even when we are in its most remote regions.
That said, all this technology and effort is ineffective in piercing the veil that covers the reality of our being. Soothsaying, condemned by the Church, has been taken up by physical science, which may tell us of our impact the world, the organisms it feeds and houses and even the weather, but can say nothing of its purpose. About our world and we ourselves, there is only the silence of meaningless particles colliding in space.
As to our salvation, to know the truth, do what is good, witness the beauty about us and become truly happy, this is all relegated to the realm of opinion.
On the world stage, the connection with reality becomes ever denser, darker and absurd.
So, we have in this thread a cynical challenge to what has become merely the idea of a god, understood as one of power no less, to give us a miracle through the media, the very tool by which we would procure our own revelation.
Secular society, deaf to the message of God is the cause of pseudoreligious fanatical violence, springing up today as the Zealots arose in the days of the Romans. The history of mankind is playing itself out, repeating what has not been learned. As the Romans reined in the Christians, so too do we find this happening today with society’s governing bodies usurp duties that belong to the Church, such as conducting marriage, providing sex and moral education as individuals ignore their duty to God and we see within society, superficial tolerance masking indifference replacing love. Those activities and rituals belong within the intimacy of relationships between individuals within their families and with God. Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, but he grabs what does not belong to him.
Nothing like a good after-dinner rant to perk oneself up and help the digestion.
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PRmerger
Guest
LOL!
That’s like saying, “If Pope Francis declares Mary part of the Trinity I vow, from that day on, to never doubt the Catholic Church’s misogyny ever again. Solemn pledge.”
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PRmerger
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This post is so full of emotion that I fear that no amount of rational discourse will be fruitful here.
It explains so much as to why the so-very-cogent arguments that all of us have been presenting to you have been unable to move you.
2 things will make you feel better:
- go to Adoration, sit there, every week for 6 weeks…seeking succor in the silence. There is no need to be a Believer
- Seek help with a mental health professional
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fladreamer
Guest
Okay. Mea culpa.
Let me try something else. I have an immortal soul. Immortal in that God will perpetually sustain its existence. God could have created a quasi-soul, that quasi-soul would be very much like the soul you and i have, only difference, crucial one, God decides that he’s free to either sustain it eternally or to stop sustaining it at some point according to his mercy and justice. This is like theo-fiction, I know, but could God have elected to do things that way rather than the actual way, in your estimation?
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes. This is a correct articulation of Catholic theology.
I certainly hope that you aren’t referencing me in the above, because I’ve said nothing at all that indicates that!
Of course.
Imagine if you were courting your sweetheart and and asked her to marry you and she said, “Can’t there be a middle ground?”
Yes, but we do have icons of both.
As obstacles go, displeasure at the concept of hell is a rather minor one.
Mostly it’s issues below the belt.
Oh, and divorce and re-marriage, which, I suppose, could be considered part of the below the belt issues.
But, alas, the Church is not God’s editor, only His letter carrier.
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fladreamer
Guest
If God dies this minute, a triangle remains a triangle, but your soul and my soul cease to exist at once. Immortality seems to be an added characteristic to the nature of a soul. If all the triangles you had ever seen in your life were red, you would define a triangle as a red geometric form. In reality, only the number of angles makes up the integral part of a triangle. its whatness. If the outside agent (let’s call him ‘‘the painter’’) were to stop actively painting each triangle that is created, a triangle would still be a triangle, you’d have to remove the element ‘‘red’’. Is immortality an angle or a colour? And who exactly determines that?
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fred_conty
Guest
How many bullets to the heart does it require to kill? Just one. The rest don’t kill…only the first.
How many sins to the soul does it require to kill? Just one. The rest don’t kill…only the first.
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fladreamer
Guest
Very well put.
But the source of my perplexity, and I would venture to say Vera_Ljuba’s as well, is the disproportion between a solitary sin, a single act, not particularly vicious or heinous to the human eye, and an eternity of misery, torment and despair as a result? God being perfectly just, why doesn’t he weigh the good deeds versus the bad deeds, and reward or punish accordingly? One skipped mass and you’re eternal cell mates with Marc Dutroux, Wolfgang Přiklopil and Aleister Crowley? To me that is a parody of justice. It’s even lower than human justice.Going now. Will resume my devil’s advocate function very soon! Bye for now.
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Vera_Ljuba
Guest
It is always a happy moment when there is an agreement.
But you did. If the soul is “immortal” in the sense that it will continue to exist, even if God decides not to sustain it any more, than you have a poor understanding of God’s sustenance of everything that is “outside” God. God sustains the soul of every sinner condemned to hell (along with everyone else in heaven or in purgatory - or here on Earth). Also it is a basic Catholic teaching that God is sovereign, and as such he volitionally sustains the souls of everyone, no matter where they are. No one and nothing can compel God to sustain these souls against his expressed will. And if God decides NOT to sustain these souls, they will cease to exist. There cannot be disagreement about these fundamental Catholic teachings. Very simple, I would say.
Well, I don’t want to sound profane, but in these days, there is perfectly accepted answer, which would be: “We can always have friendship with benefits”.
But, let’s be serious.
Imagine if you asked your neighbor if you and he can be friends, and he answers: “There can be middle ground; we can have a mutual non-aggression agreement, but no friendship”. Life is loaded with gray areas, and there is no reason why the afterlife should be a “black-and-white” place. (Oh, and Vera indicates a female poster, even though I would not hesitate to propose a marriage to a boyfriend.)
What does that mean? There is a possible world (ours!) where we do not enjoy God’s beatific vision, but it is not pure torment and misery. Therefore such a state of affairs is possible in this existence, and therefore it is possible in the afterlife. As you like to bring it up, God can only be restrained by logical contradictions. Your only problem is that you see a logical contradiction where there is none.
It depends. There are many people whose major concern is the contradiction between “love” and eternal torture. No one is qualified to decide what is a “major” problem or a “minor” one for someone else.
That statement would be wonderfully reinforced by some evidence. As is, it does not contain any convincing value.
Vera_Ljuba
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PRmerger
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Indeed.It is always a happy moment when there is an agreement.
Nope.
I think you must have missed this post:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14165060&postcount=684
Who has said that the soul could continue to exist “even if God decides not to sustain it anymore”?
And that indeed, would be profanity sine fine. Or…hell.
Thank you for proving my point.
This indicates such an impoverished understanding of the Godhead.
This sounds so…black and white.
“There are some things in life which are gray, therefore the afterlife must be gray!”
Fair enough.
I thought it might be a reference to the Italian “Truth”,which could, of course taken by a man.
An icon points to what is actually real.
We have icons of the beatific vision in the Mass, in the faces of our children or of our Beloved…
And we see icons of hell in child soldiers in Uganda being told to execute their mothers to demonstrate their fealty. Hellish, to be sure.
Firstly, there is no contradiction. To use your sentiments: you seem to be seeing a contradiction where there is none.
God’s love is ever present, shining on the souls of those who find it odious.
Secondly, I’m going out on a limb and going to venture that it’s not a major obstacle for you. I am going to say that you, too, have an issue below the belt that is the reason you’re not a Believer.
Or it’s an emotional one, like for fladreamer
What would that evidence look like to you, Vera?
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