Billions of people have HD video cameras in their pockets: why aren't we seeing lots of miracles on video?

[o_mlly]

I was pretty sure I’d seen the vid, then you made me doubt myself. Then I wondered if I’d seen it in another thread. Then I started reviewing this thread and eureka: post #7 and it’s the 2nd link in that post.

Yes, it is the same video with a different URL.

Good that we all just love watching the same miracles again and again.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

It wouldn’t work for “millions of us” because

1. it didn’t work for the thousands who saw Him, literally, in the flesh
2. human nature. For those who don’t want to believe, it’s amazing what they will espouse in order to deny God’s existence/Christianity/Catholicism.

One person (probably of Mensa-level intelligence) has argued that perhaps the answer to the empty tomb and the miracles of Jesus is: aliens did it.

Yep. Can you even?

1. Document these thousands please. Or actually, name just three. Name three people who rejected Jesus after having seen him glorified and resurrected. Paul says there were 500. Name three. Cite your sources please.
2. I prefer not to speculate about “human nature’s” general psychological disposition toward religious beliefs.

It seems you misunderstand the alien hypothesis jokingly proposed by another forum participant even though he explained it to you at great length repeatedly. I won’t bother to open that can of worms, but his thought experiment was quite illuminating.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Oh, and God’s never going to give in to your demand for a “genuine miracle”.

Imagine if you were courting a woman and invited her to spend the rest of her life with you.

She responded with: nope. Not gonna do it until you can offer me some documentation that you love me. I want data Scientific data. And then I need documentation, hard, cold evidence, that you will never cheat on me. Then I will consent to marry you.

That would indicate a kind of obdurate spirit, no? Someone you really don’t want to court.

And let’s say, incredibly, that you were indeed able to provide the proof she demanded, would you then really even want to marry her? Would that really be love that she’s demonstrating as opposed to: I am 100% certain I’ll have a comfortable life with Pumpkin so therefore I’ll go with him, and not the other guy.

Nah.

I explained before why this analogy doesn’t work the way you seem to desire. You can go back and carefully read it again.

God is no coy woman, he is the creator.

 

[fladreamer]

Are you saying that no dad permits his son to suffer?

Really?

Will you not hold your son down, should he be dehydrated and in need of IV fluids, so the nurse can stick him (multiple times sometimes) with a needle?

Will you not take your daughter to get immunized, having her endure sometimes 5 shots in 1 visit?

No (answer to your 1st question), but my father was more along the lines of, but not exactly like, the dad DeNiro portrays in the movie The Fan. Add a mix of alcoholism, mental illness and religious fervour. We’re talking bottom-of-the-barrel genetics here, no judgment on my part, I’m just stating things as I see them. But I find it odd, though, that your first idea was that my dad was alright and I was the one with the stiff neck. Granted, ‘‘dad filter’’ did not say much about my situation.

But let’s not turn this into a thread about me, though.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Yeah the burden of hopelessness and God’s lack/apparent lack of response. Relentless suffering, both intrinsic and extrinsic, has killed my faith in God. There is also the ‘‘dad filter’’, but it’s not just that one thing, it’a a plethora of things. But to me there’s no point in denying God’s existence. What broke the chamel’s back is knowing that not only I had 70-80 years of life to endure but that God could extend that period infinitely and add new sufferings to the sufferings I experienced in the temporal realm. You can’t be my loving dad and my potential hangman at the same time. If annihilation was promulgated ex cathedra tomorrow, my essential beef with God vanishes, and I can give heaven my best shot, knowing I’ll cease to exist if I miss God’s mark.

Life can definitely grind away at our belief in God’s goodness, I agree. I sympathize with your suffering and wish better times for you ahead. I do agree that if hell awaits any one of us, then it wouldn’t be right for any of us to be happy ever again. Eternal hell is an evil that overwhelms and extinguishes any goodness or happiness in the universe. It makes the act of creation a heinous evil, and the word “good” (when applied to God) becomes totally emptied of meaning. However, I think there are good reasons not to believe there is any such hell.

Recently, I read Walker Percy’s Lost in the Cosmos. In it, he describes a person he calls the “ex-suicide.”

The difference between a non-suicide and an ex-suicide leaving the house for work, at eight o’clock on an ordinary morning:

The non-suicide is a little traveling suck of care, sucking care with him from the past and being sucked toward care in the future. His breath is high in his chest.

The ex-suicide opens his front door, sits down on the steps, and laughs. Since he has the option of being dead, he has nothing to lose by being alive. It is good to be alive. He goes to work because he doesn’t have to.

I found that to be inspiring. May we both be ex-suicides.

FYI Percy’s father and grandfather both committed actual suicide. Walker Percy was a devout Catholic.

 

[fladreamer]

Life can definitely grind away at our belief in God’s goodness, I agree. I sympathize with your suffering and wish better times for you ahead. I do agree that if hell awaits any one of us, then it wouldn’t be right for any of us to be happy ever again. Eternal hell is an evil that overwhelms and extinguishes any goodness or happiness in the universe. It makes the act of creation a heinous evil, and the word “good” (when applied to God) becomes totally emptied of meaning. However, I think there are good reasons not to believe there is any such hell.

Recently, I read Walker Percy’s Lost in the Cosmos. In it, he describes a person he calls the “ex-suicide.”

I found that to be inspiring. May we both be ex-suicides.

FYI Percy’s father and grandfather both committed actual suicide. Walker Percy was a devout Catholic.

Thanks for your good words. I will read that book.

 

[PRmerger]

But I find it odd, though, that your first idea was that my dad was alright and I was the one with the stiff neck

And I find it odd that your first idea was that I had any thoughts whatsoever about your dad.

He didn’t even enter my mind.

 

[PRmerger]

Eternal hell is an evil that overwhelms and extinguishes any goodness or happiness in the universe.

Eternal hell is just and necessary, PC. There must be a place where people find God’s love
odious.

And if it’s not eternal, how can there be any justice whatsoever?

I always think of the most horrid thing I’ve heard about personally–one of my coworkers talks about her grandfather dragging his wife around by her hair because she ruined his breakfast. By. Her. Hair.

I take comfort in knowing that there is a place for him.

And if it’s not eternal–he was just punished for this for 2 seconds and then given eternal bliss, what kind of justice is that? Especially for his wife?

And if that doesn’t move you somehow–that’s NBD, then what about the warlords who demand that a child soldier kill execute their mothers in order to demonstrate fealty? Or a terrorist who beheads a child?

No eternal hell?

 

[fladreamer]

Eternal hell is just and necessary, PC. There must be a place where people find God’s love
odious.

And if it’s not eternal, how can there be any justice whatsoever?

I always think of the most horrid thing I’ve heard about personally–one of my coworkers talks about her grandfather dragging his wife around by her hair because she ruined his breakfast. By. Her. Hair.

I take comfort in knowing that there is a place for him.

And if it’s not eternal–he was just punished for this for 2 seconds and then given eternal bliss, what kind of justice is that? Especially for his wife?

And if that doesn’t move you somehow–that’s NBD, then what about the warlords who demand that a child soldier kill execute their mothers in order to demonstrate fealty? Or a terrorist who beheads a child?

No eternal hell?

I think you’re thinking in black or white terms. Eternal punishement versus a 2-second punishment? How about 2 millenia per incident where he treated his wife the way he did? As for the warlords, let them suffer in a temporary hell in the proportion that they have caused suffering during their earthly lives. Then when God sees fit, he can simply stop sustaining their existence. Which is what annihilation would look like. You pay dearly for the wrong you’ve caused, you get a finite sentence for finite acts against charity.

Thing is, though, you took extreme examples. The rule is that one unrepented mortal sin will get one into eternal hell. Missing mass once for frivolous reasons has the potential to be that mortal sin if it meets the 3 conditions. If a Catholic does that and dies before going to confession or having perfect contrition/imperfect contrition with a firm purpose to go to confession ASAP, then it’s eternall hell with the warlords, the wife beater and all the most vicious and depraved human beings who have ever lived, and all the demonic hierarchy. Don’t you think it’s overkill to pay eternally for one solitary sin?

 

[Bradski]

Recently, I read Walker Percy’s Lost in the Cosmos. In it, he describes a person he calls the “ex-suicide.”

I found that to be inspiring. May we both be ex-suicides.

Just bought the book purely on the basis of the description of an ‘ex-suicide’. Brilliant. And A curse on Kindle. Way to easy to spend all my hard earned at the click of a button.

 

[PRmerger]

I think you’re thinking in black or white terms.

Hah!

Is the above not a comment that thinks “in black or white terms” as well?

Eternal punishement versus a 2-second punishment? How about 2 millenia per incident where he treated his wife the way he did? As for the warlords, let them suffer in a temporary hell in the proportion that they have caused suffering during their earthly lives. Then when God sees fit, he can simply stop sustaining their existence. Which is what annihilation would look like. You pay dearly for the wrong you’ve caused, you get a finite sentence for finite acts against charity.

I think this demonstrates a rather impoverished understanding of infinitude, friend.

Let’s take this analogy:

Let’s say you’re a father headed into Disney World. Your 10 year old son, Gopher, trips your 3 year old son and then laughs hysterically at his injuries.

You say, “Gopher, that was very, very bad! You must now stay out of the park for 2 minutes! But then you will be permitted to come in and spend 36 million minutes in extreme fun!”

Now, that’s a finite example of the math.

Apply that to infinity…and the example I gave is woefully inadequate, right?

So do you see how 20 years in hell and then being permitted to spend an eternity in heaven is otiose?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Just bought the book purely on the basis of the description of an ‘ex-suicide’. Brilliant. And A curse on Kindle. Way to easy to spend all my hard earned at the click of a button.

I found it to be amusing, funny, and thought-provoking though it does contain a ton of dated pop-culture references and is heavily “American” in the sense that it requires familiarity with a lot of American places and attitudes. It’s an extended mockery of self-help books from that time period (70s-80s). If one finds that sort of thing funny, it’s well worth a read.

 

[PRmerger]

Thing is, though, you took extreme examples.

Are they false? Do you think that they don’t fit the context of our discussion?

The rule is that one unrepented mortal sin will get one into eternal hell. Missing mass once for frivolous reasons has the potential to be that mortal sin if it meets the 3 conditions. If a Catholic does that and dies before going to confession or having perfect contrition/imperfect contrition with a firm purpose to go to confession ASAP, then it’s eternall hell with the warlords, the wife beater and all the most vicious and depraved human beings who have ever lived, and all the demonic hierarchy. Don’t you think it’s overkill to pay eternally for one solitary sin?

Given what you and I know of human nature, do you think that there’s anyone who’s missed Mass for a frivolous reason (and meeting the other conditions), who hasn’t also committed other mortal sins?

 

[fladreamer]

Let’s say you’re a father headed into Disney World. Your 10 year old son, Gopher, trips your 3 year old son and then laughs hysterically at his injuries.

You say, “Gopher, that was very, very bad! You must now stay out of the park for 2 minutes! But then you will be permitted to come in and spend 36 million minutes in extreme fun!”

Now, that’s a finite example of the math.

Apply that to infinity…and the example I gave is woefully inadequate, right?

So do you see how 20 years in hell and then being permitted to spend an eternity in heaven is otiose?

I like to think outside the box. Heaven and hell is a binary concept. I think there are vicious, depraved people who see nothing wrong with their ways and don’t want to amend, for those people a temporary hell where they get repaid for every atrocity and cruelty they’re the authors of, which could translate in hundreds, thousands years of utter agony of the spirit and all kinds of manner of pain and torment. Then when justice has been satisfied God simply wills to stop sustaining these souls’ existence and they stop existing, period. If heaven and hell is all that there is, then God has essentially tied his own hands.

 

[fladreamer]

Are they false? Do you think that they don’t fit the context of our discussion?

Not per se. But they seem to suggest that one has to have abandoned all human dignity and decency to ‘‘qualify’’ for hell. I demonstrated otherwise. Lots of people who are deemed nice and perfectly decent will likely be damned because of one or two mortal sin(s).

Given what you and I know of human nature, do you think that there’s anyone who’s missed Mass for a frivolous reason (and meeting the other conditions), who hasn’t also committed other mortal sins?

Tough call. I think it’s plausible, likely, but not systematically true, I would say. Though you know what they say about opinions? But the Church is adamant that one mortal sin which meets the 3 conditions for it to be mortal, if left unconfessed, will result in its author being eternally ruined when he/she dies. But I don’t want this thread to be derailed so it would be best to return to the topic of the OP.

 

[o_mlly]

I like to think outside the box. Heaven and hell is a binary concept. I think there are vicious, depraved people who see nothing wrong with their ways and don’t want to amend, for those people a temporary hell where they get repaid for every atrocity and cruelty they’re the authors of, which could translate in hundreds, thousands years of utter agony of the spirit and all kinds of manner of pain and torment. Then when justice has been satisfied God simply wills to stop sustaining these souls’ existence and they stop existing, period. If heaven and hell is all that there is, then God has essentially tied his own hands.

The souls in hell, not God, tied their own hands. No one in hell forgives; no one in hell is forgiven. At the moment the soul leaves the body, one’s ability to forgive, to change their disposition, to accept God’s grace ends for outside time the soul absent the body cannot alter the body’s mind nor can the body do so on its own. Justice is satisfied. God the Father is the Creator not the Annihilator. The souls in hell are not performing reparations for their sins; that task falls to the souls in purgatory. The souls in hell are receiving what they willed – to be away from God. God keeps His promises.

But we cannot limit God the omnipotent and omnibenevolent One. He may have in His plan an escape clause for these tormented souls. Universalism is not Catholic doctrine but is still a possibility.

 

[fladreamer]

The souls in hell, not God, tied their own hands. No one in hell forgives; no one in hell is forgiven. At the moment the soul leaves the body, one’s ability to forgive, to change their disposition, to accept God’s grace ends for outside time the soul absent the body cannot alter the body’s mind nor can the body do so on its own. Justice is satisfied. God the Father is the Creator not the Annihilator. The souls in hell are not performing reparations for their sins; that task falls to the souls in purgatory. The souls in hell are receiving what they willed – to be away from God. God keeps His promises.

But we cannot limit God the omnipotent and omnibenevolent One. ** He may have in His plan an escape clause for these tormented souls.** Universalism is not Catholic doctrine but is still a possibility.

Amen to that (bolded part). To me that would seem the only option befitting a supreme being who is, allegedly, perfect in all his ways.

 

[fladreamer]

And without God, you still have your suffering.
Just no reason for it.

At least with the Christian ethos, specifically the Catholic lens, you can unite your sufferings to Christ for a greater good.

As Pope JPII said, gently slapping a person on the cheek, “Don’t waste your suffering, son”.

Thing is, though, at some point a human being would rather see an end to his suffering rather than a reason for it. i’ve come to hate dolorism.

Let’s use an analogy. Picture a family man, upstanding, full of integrity, keeping his disorderly passions in check, God fearing, a model father for his kids etc. But through no fault of his own, as far as we can tell, he’s in a bad place financially. In fact it’s so bad he’s days away from having his home foreclosed, which would have a snow-ball effect on nearly all aspects of his life. Now that man has a very good friend, best friend maybe, whom he’s known since primary school, who has done extraordinarily well for himself. Let’s say he’s a billionaire, or half a billionaire (500 millon dollars is still not bad). So the financially distressed man meets his friend and starts small talk. Eventually he opens up about the mess he’s in. HIs wealthy friend is visibly moved by his friend’s account. Matter of fact he’s fighting back tears, but not entirely succesfully though, as the family man sees a tear subtly rolling down his cheek. This gives the afflicted man the impetus to muster the courage to lay aside his pride and ask his wealthy friend for a way out of his debacle. Could be a loan or a gift. The amount, of course, is insignificant, it’s a s if I was asking you, PR merger, a dime to put an end to something that torments me. In real life, i’m sure you’d do it, knowing the tons of good it would do, although I am to you but an anonymous, Internet stranger.

Now back to the story. Billionaire’s reaction is startling. He does admit that it would be a piece of cake to bail him out, but that he loves him so much that he wills his best for his friend. What’s his friend’s best, you may ask? Growth. Since problems and adversity are the greatest fertilized soil in which growth occurs, he would be failing as a true friend to help his poor friend. To put a final nail on the coffin of their friendship the wealthy man tells his unfortunate friend that since his suffering is inevitable, that at least he should make good use of it by uniting it with Christ’s sorrowful passion. The poor man did not ask his rich friend to act as Santa Claus or a vending machine, he simply asked him to act as a friend. Which is what i’ve been asking God (for a breakthrough) all my stupid life. My dime would likely be synapses and/or neurotransmitter and an upgrade of the frontal lobe. This has put me in a mental/psychological prison of which I see no way out. Is it ADD, autism spectrum, auditory processing disorder, or a combination of other factors, I don’t know, I only know it has acted as Satan: it has stolen, killed and destroyed.

NOW we can go back to what this thread is about. Namely why 21st century man does not get the benefit of irrevocable evidence of the supernatural/Christ’s deity/Christian God’s existence. Or if such evidence exists, given the ubiquity of cell phones with hd cameras, ‘‘why aren’t we seeing lots of mracles on video’’?

 

[davidv]

Thing is, though, at some point a human being would rather see an end to his suffering rather than a reason for it. i’ve come to hate dolorism.

Let’s use an analogy. Picture a family man, upstanding, full of integrity, keeping his disorderly passions in check, God fearing, a model father for his kids etc. But through no fault of his own, as far as we can tell, he’s in a bad place financially. In fact it’s so bad he’s days away from having his home foreclosed, which would have a snow-ball effect on nearly all aspects of his life. Now that man has a very good friend, best friend maybe, whom he’s known since primary school, who has done extraordinarily well for himself. Let’s say he’s a billionaire, or half a billionaire (500 millon dollars is still not bad). So the financially distressed man meets his friend and starts small talk. Eventually he opens up about the mess he’s in. HIs wealthy friend is visibly moved by his friend’s account. Matter of fact he’s fighting back tears, but not entirely succesfully though, as the family man sees a tear subtly rolling down his cheek. This gives the afflicted man the impetus to muster the courage to lay aside his pride and ask his wealthy friend for a way out of his debacle. Could be a loan or a gift. The amount, of course, is insignificant, it’s a s if I was asking you, PR merger, a dime to put an end to something that torments me. In real life, i’m sure you’d do it, knowing the tons of good it would do, although I am to you but an anonymous, Internet stranger.

Now back to the story. Billionaire’s reaction is startling. He does admit that it would be a piece of cake to bail him out, but that he loves him so much that he wills his best for his friend. What’s his friend’s best, you may ask? Growth. Since problems and adversity are the greatest fertilized soil in which growth occurs, he would be failing as a true friend to help his poor friend. To put a final nail on the coffin of their friendship the wealthy man tells his unfortunate friend that since his suffering is inevitable, that at least he should make good use of it by uniting it with Christ’s sorrowful passion. The poor man did not ask his rich friend to act as Santa Claus or a vending machine, he simply asked him to act as a friend. Which is what i’ve been asking God (for a breakthrough) all my stupid life. My dime would likely be synapses and/or neurotransmitter and an upgrade of the frontal lobe. This has put me in a mental/psychological prison of which I see no way out. Is it ADD, autism spectrum, auditory processing disorder, or a combination of other factors, I don’t know, I only know it has acted as Satan: it has stolen, killed and destroyed.

NOW we can go back to what this thread is about. Namely why 21st century man does not get the benefit of irrevocable evidence of the supernatural/Christ’s deity/Christian God’s existence. Or if such evidence exists, given the ubiquity of cell phones with hd cameras, ‘‘why aren’t we seeing lots of mracles on video’’?

Because, never before has irrevocable evidence been supplied. The signs and wonders that have been provided must be accompanied by faith. This faith is gift from God that can be freely ignored.

 

[tonyrey]

I like to think outside the box. Heaven and hell is a binary concept. I think there are vicious, depraved people who see nothing wrong with their ways and don’t want to amend, for those people a temporary hell where they get repaid for every atrocity and cruelty they’re the authors of, which could translate in hundreds, thousands years of utter agony of the spirit and all kinds of manner of pain and torment. Then when justice has been satisfied God simply wills to stop sustaining these souls’ existence and they stop existing, period. If heaven and hell is all that there is, then God has essentially tied his own hands.

For God to destroy a person He has created is the epitome of inconsistency!