Billions of people have HD video cameras in their pockets: why aren't we seeing lots of miracles on video?

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I like to think outside the box.
Well, that’s good.

But also conforming to what’s in the box can be the smart thing to do.

Let’s say someone says, “I like to think outside the box”, and then he steps in front of moving vehicle…and is hit.

#physicsispartofthebox
Heaven and hell is a binary concept
Indeed.
I think there are vicious, depraved people who see nothing wrong with their ways and don’t want to amend, for those people a temporary hell where they get repaid for every atrocity and cruelty they’re the authors of, which could translate in hundreds, thousands years of utter agony of the spirit and all kinds of manner of pain and torment.
Again, you do understand the math as I limned it above, yes?

“Hundreds, thousands of years of utter agony” before being permitted to enter into heaven for infinity is like 2 seconds of punishment before being permitted to enter into Disney.
Then when justice has been satisfied God simply wills to stop sustaining these souls’ existence and they stop existing, period.
The soul ontologically is immortal.

It simply cannot be destroyed–else it’s not a soul.
If heaven and hell is all that there is, then God has essentially tied his own hands.
I don’t understand. How so?
 
For God to destroy a person He has created is the epitome of inconsistency!
Absolutely not. ‘‘The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh’’ since he’s the giver of life, he is also free to take it. In a sense though you are right: it doesn’t make sense to create someone to destroy them in the end. Hell is indeed effectively destroying someone for ever and ever.
 
The soul ontologically is immortal.
Nothing is ontologically immortal, except God. God is the one and only “necessary being”, nothing and no one else exists necessarily. Everything outside God exists contingently, IOW everything is sustained by God, who is sovereign and as such can do whatever he wants (maybe excepting logical contradictions). But there is nothing logically problematic about destroying anything.

What you say is also logically contradictory to God’s omnipotence. God could simply withdraw the “maintenance” factor from those souls, which have been tortured long enough, as soon as their “debt” is paid in full. Of course you might say that missing one mass (by a Catholic) for frivolous reasons is a sufficiently “grave matter” which deserves eternal torture, but that would be a different argument. God’s alleged inability to destroy the “soul” is contradicted by other teachings. 🤷

Vera_Ljuba
 
Nothing is ontologically immortal, except God. God is the one and only “necessary being”, nothing and no one else exists necessarily.
I think you are conflating “immortal” with “not contingent”.

They are not the same.

Once an immortal soul is created, the universe is changed forever. FOREVER.

What existed before, a universe without this particular soul, exist no more at the moment of conception.
God is the one and only “necessary being”, nothing and no one else exists necessarily. Everything outside God exists contingently, IOW everything is sustained by God, who is sovereign and as such can do whatever he wants (maybe excepting logical contradictions).
You are correct here.
But there is nothing logically problematic about destroying anything.
Really?

Then can you describe how God could destroy “tree-ness”, once a tree has existed?
 
But also conforming to what’s in the box can be the smart thing to do.
Can’t give my fiat to the doctrine of hell. To me it’s simply an aberration. I apologize profusely to my dog if I drop a ramekin and it falls on her head. And I’m evil according to God. God on the other hand is the supreme being. perfect in everything, he will sustain every damned soul eternally so that they can be in a permanent state of terror, despair and utter agony of the spirit and of the senses? And he will do that without being bothered in the least by it?!
Again, you do understand the math as I limned it above, yes?

“Hundreds, thousands of years of utter agony” before being permitted to enter into heaven for infinity is like 2 seconds of punishment before being permitted to enter into Disney.
I take it that being yourself sentenced to 12 minutes or 12 years of jail would be immaterial since the end result is the same:you return to freedom. As for me and my household we’d choose the 12 minutes in a heartbeat. And in an ideal world, it’s not off to Disneyworld, it’s off to nothingness, void, nonexistence, whatever you wanna call it.
The soul ontologically is immortal.

It simply cannot be destroyed–else it’s not a soul.
Immortal inasmuch as it is sustained by God. Not intrinsically immortal. God could have created something* like * the soul but not quite like it. It would be named something else, it would differ from the soul only in that it would be mortal by default, and conditionally immortal. I repeat though: it would not be a soul. Identical in everything but the soul’s immortalness. The reality, the existence of hell is so harsh, cruel, unjust, so radically at odds with a being who is love, that it’s mind-boggling. Were the Jews of the OT, or everyone else on earth before the year 30 AD, aware of what was awaiting them if they failed the final test?
 
Nothing is ontologically immortal, except God. God is the one and only “necessary being”, nothing and no one else exists necessarily. Everything outside God exists contingently, IOW everything is sustained by God, who is sovereign and as such can do whatever he wants (maybe excepting logical contradictions). But there is nothing logically problematic about destroying anything.

What you say is also logically contradictory to God’s omnipotence. God could simply withdraw the “maintenance” factor from those souls, which have been tortured long enough, as soon as their “debt” is paid in full. Of course you might say that missing one mass (by a Catholic) for frivolous reasons is a sufficiently “grave matter” which deserves eternal torture, but that would be a different argument. God’s alleged inability to destroy the “soul” is contradicted by other teachings. 🤷

Vera_Ljuba
I could not have worded it as eloquently as you did, but I whole-heartedly agree with you. People may not realize how much leeway God enjoys. He can’t contradict his own nature. Not sustaining a soul indefinitely in terror and agony would not contradict his nature. Bottom-line: as things are I don’t want everybody in heaven, yet I want no-one in eternal hell. If eternal hell is a reality then it’s a deadly attack against God’ s attribute of omnibenevolence. It just is.
 
Then can you describe how God could destroy “tree-ness”, once a tree has existed?
“Tree-ness” is not an ontological object, it is just a concept. The soul is supposed to be an ontological entity (not just a concept), which may or may not exist, depending on God’s decision. As soon as all the trees are “gone” - meaning that God ceases to sustain their existence, the “tree-ness” is also gone. It would become an empty construct, which has no referent in reality. Does the “qwerty”-ness exist without the typewriters or the keyboards, which have that particular physical layout of those keys?

But all this is hair-splitting. Nothing exists outside God, if he decides to get rid of them. To maintain a soul in everlasting agony and torture is something that is incompatible with God’s benevolent nature. Purgatory would be fine. One commits some finite deed, which needs to be punished, and one spends some (unspecified but) finite time in purgatory, to “purge” the evil out of him. That would be a just sentencing. But infinite torture is different. It is rather strange that you see a the limited agony and the following eternal bliss as “unbalanced”, but refuse to accept that finite deeds cannot “merit” eternal punishment.

Let’s add that the church does not teach that there is any particular person in hell. Not even the worst psychopaths or sociopaths are declared to be in hell. Though the church does teach, that any and all unrepented mortal sins will condemn you to hell. Even one missing mass (for frivolous reasons) would be sufficient (for Catholics, of course).

Vera_Ljuba
 
To maintain a soul in everlasting agony and torture is something that is incompatible with God’s benevolent nature. Purgatory would be fine. One commits some finite deed, which needs to be punished, and one spends some (unspecified but) finite time in purgatory, to “purge” the evil out of him. That would be a just sentencing. But infinite torture is different. It is rather strange that you see a the limited agony and the following eternal bliss as “unbalanced”, but refuse to accept that finite deeds cannot “merit” eternal punishment.
I think you are missing the point that God isn’t maintaining the soul in everlasting agony. The agony is due to a rejection by the soul of God’s love. Here’s a good analogy Eastern Catholics and Orthodox use to describe it:

Why We Need Hell By Frederica Matthewes-Green

First of all, hell is not a place. If you’re separated from your body and exist only as a spirit, you don’t take up any room. In the Hebrew Scriptures all the dead, righteous and unrighteous, abide in Sheol (the Greek Scriptures translated it “Hades”). It is a non-physical realm where the souls of all the departed await the Last Judgment.

But they don’t all experience it the same way. In Jesus’ parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man (Luke 16:19-31), the Rich Man is not sequestered in a bleak alternative dimension; he’s able to see Lazarus, and speak to Abraham. But he’s sure isn’t having a good time.

How can this be? Because the real answer to the “where” question is “in the presence of God.” Nothing exists outside God, making the concept of “separation from God” only a handy metaphor. “Whither shall I flee from thy presence? … If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there” (Psalm 139:7-8). In this life, we perceive that presence pulsing through all material Creation. In the next life that materiality will be dissolved, and we’ll be irradiated by the living energy that sustains the universe.

Those who love God and prepare themselves to assimilate his light will begin to be transformed even in this life; they become “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4). But those who resist and ignore God “harden their hearts” (Hebrews 3:15). If they “love darkness rather than light” (John 3:19), they will find the inescapable brilliance to be searing misery and paradoxical blindness.

And that’s only a foretaste. What we experience as spirits can be termed “Hades” and “Paradise.” After the unimaginable resurrection and restoration of our bodies, true “Heaven” and “Hell” will commence.

How can the same Light affect people in different ways? Hearers of scripture in earlier generations would have seen this phenomenon every day. Before the age of electricity, light always meant fire. And fire requires respect. From earliest childhood they would learn that fire gives us warmth and light, but if mishandled, it deals agonizing pain, darkness and death. “Our God is a consuming fire” (Deut. 4:24, Hebrews 12:29).

“The same sun that melts wax hardens mud” is how Origen, the 3rd century Egyptian writer, put it. In the 4th century, St. Basil the Great used the story of the three young men in the fiery furnace (Daniel 3:1-30) as an illustration: the fire spared the prayerful trio, while the guards who threw them in were destroyed.

God’s presence is not just Light, and Life, but Love. And Love invites, but does not compel. The Prodigal Son’s older brother lived in his father’s loving abundance, but was bitter and resentful. To the pure, God’s purity shines clearly; but to the twisted, even His love appears untrustworthy and twisted (2 Samuel 22:27). St. Issac of Syria (7th century) wrote that those who suffer in the next life “are scourged by the scourge of love.”

This idea, that both heaven and hell are experiences of the same divine presence, is startlingly different from contemporary assumptions. But even more so is the next idea: hell is not a punishment. We assume God’s justice means settling the score; that each sin must have its payment, either in Christ’s blood or human writhing in hell. We can even sort of like the idea. Surely God will torture murderers and rapists and bad guys, and anyone who ever did us a wrong turn. Justice, we think, means finally getting even.

But as St. Isaac points out, God isn’t “just” in that calculating sense. “How can you call God just,” he says, when you consider the parable of the workers paid for a full day when they worked only an hour? Or the parable of the Prodigal Son, restored fully to his father on the basis of mere repentance? St Isaac concludes, “Do not call God just, for his justice is not evident in the things concerning you.”

God is not looking for repayment, but repentance. What heals a broken relationship is sincere love and contrition. What’s wrong with us isn’t a rap sheet of bad deeds, but a damaged heart, a soul-sickness, that plunges us into fearful self-protection, alienation from God and others. Paradoxically, this leads to death: “whoever would save his life will lose it” (Matthew 16:25).

This sickness elicits not God’s fury but his indomitable love, much like the urgent, grieving love a parent has for a wandering child. (Jesus’ parable was about the Prodigal Son, not the Indignant Accountant.) “It is not that God grows angry with us,” said the 3rd century Desert Father, St. Antony the Great, “but it is our own sins that prevent God from shining within us.”
 
Can’t give my fiat to the doctrine of hell.
I understand that there are some things that are difficult to accept, flad.

But the wise person doesn’t simply reject it just because it’s unpalatable.
To me it’s simply an aberration. I apologize profusely to my dog if I drop a ramekin and it falls on her head. And I’m evil according to God. God on the other hand is the supreme being. perfect in everything, he will sustain every damned soul eternally so that they can be in a permanent state of terror, despair and utter agony of the spirit and of the senses? And he will do that without being bothered in the least by it?!
If the soul isn’t immortal, then it isn’t a soul at all.

Just like if the shape doesn’t have 3 sides, then it isn’t a triangle at all.
I take it that being yourself sentenced to 12 minutes or 12 years of jail would be immaterial since the end result is the same:you return to freedom. As for me and my household we’d choose the 12 minutes in a heartbeat. And in an ideal world, it’s not off to Disneyworld, it’s off to nothingness, void, nonexistence, whatever you wanna call it.
I don’t understand your point here.

quote]Immortal inasmuch as it is sustained by God. Not intrinsically immortal. God could have created something* like * the soul but not quite like it. It would be named something else, it would differ from the soul only in that it would be mortal by default, and conditionally immortal. I repeat though: it would not be a soul. Identical in everything but the soul’s immortalness.

This is simply nonsense. If it’s the life force, and it’s immaterial, and it separates from the body, then it must be immortal.

Just like if it’s a triangle, it must have 3 sides.

God cannot declare something to be a triangle that looks like this:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
The reality, the existence of hell is so harsh, cruel, unjust, so radically at odds with a being who is love, that it’s mind-boggling.
You do understand that there MUST be a place for a loving God to send people who find His Love so odious.

Surely you see this, yes?
Were the Jews of the OT, or everyone else on earth before the year 30 AD, aware of what was awaiting them if they failed the final test?
Why should it be different for them than for anyone else here on earth living today? :confused:
 
Let’s add that the church does not teach that there is any particular person in hell. Not even the worst psychopaths or sociopaths are declared to be in hell.
Yes. You are correct.
Though the church does teach, that any and all unrepented mortal sins will condemn you to hell. Even one missing mass (for frivolous reasons) would be sufficient (for Catholics, of course).
Vera_Ljuba
Yes. This is correct as well.

We are given enough revelation to understand that hell exists, and that we definitely don’t want to go there but have been given also enough hope to believe that no one is there.

That sounds like the perfect recipe to me for Believers to live their lives with hope and not despair.
 
If the soul isn’t immortal, then it isn’t a soul at all.
This contradicts God’s omnipotence. Sure, God creates a “soul”, and then decides to destroy it. Was that not the point of the deluge? When God decided to wipe out the ill-begotten experiment of the creation? “The Lord giveth and then the Lord taketh it away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.” I see no problem with that.
Yes. You are correct.
Yes. This is correct as well.
Fine. But this has nothing to do with the problem at hand. God is not (logically) required to maintain the soul of the sinners who will be exposed to eternal suffering and torture. A finite purgatory would be just and proper, but an eternal torture is simply “too much”.

What kind of argument can anyone bring up to support eternal torture and punishment for some finite deed - like missing a mass for some frivolous reasons? I would really like to see a reasoned response to this particular question? Are there some theologians or apologists who can present a rational answer?
 
It is best to look towards heaven rather than focussing on hell. Things make sense when we do so.

For example, missing mass for trivial reasons is a mortal sin.
The Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
He died for our sins and partaking of the Host, we become more Christ-like.
Attending mass, we enter into a virtuous circle upwards, our participation heightening the realization of who God is and the possiblity of communing with Him, which further increases our desire to participate. Mass becomes a the centre of one’s week, a necessity more important than anything else.
An athelete who skips his training, a student who misses classes and fails to study, an employee who stays home from work, a boss who does not maintain and grow his company, an artist who doesn’t paint, you can see where I’m going with this, none of these people is going to get where they had intended to go.
The importance of mass and the Eucharist, will begin to dwindle following an act of nonattendance, as do other graces that follow, and one can find oneself caught in a downward spiral where God fades into the distance and one is evermore caught up in useless and even destructive endevours.

The whole point is to know God. And, we can know Him now.

There are individuals who are lost and have no sense of who God is. They don’t believe and naturally at that point would not be expected to attend Sunday mass. They would be called by God to choose between what is good and evil, but in their own way. But, we who have been granted the gift of faith, hunger to know Him ever more. If one’s priorities put God second to some other master, be it pleasure and relaxation, money, social pressures, whatever, we will receive their rewards

So, to stay on track, the evidence of God is everywhere. People do not believe in miracles that have been documented, as some people do not believe that we have been to the moon or that the holocaust occurred. We each have a personal relationship with God through which we know him. We need only answer and follow when He calls. Doing His will demonstrates our love because He is Love. The more we do His will, the closer to Him we become, which makes it easier to do His will. While the demands and expectations are heightened, so too are the rewards.
 
Absolutely not. ‘‘The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh’’ since he’s the giver of life, he is also free to take it. In a sense though you are right: it doesn’t make sense to create someone to destroy them in the end. Hell is indeed effectively destroying someone for ever and ever.
In other words if your view were true it would be the epitome of inconsistency and wouldn’t make sense. Jesus used symbolism because spiritual truth is difficult to grasp by many if not most people. Hell is not a place but a choice. It is not a harsh punishment inflicted by God but ** self-inflicted isolation** as the result of pride and the lust for power - of which there is abundant evidence in this world. Evil people are never content or satisified because the more they have the more they want. Above all they want to be absolute masters of themselves without having to owe allegiance to anyone else including their Creator. In hell they get exactly what they want - which is only just - but what they want isn’t good enough! It doesn’t correspond to their need for love and respect.

On earth tyrants are despised and hated for their diabolical injustice. In hell the damned isolate themselves and pay the price for their lack of compassion. It is not in our interest to regard ourselves as superior to others and ignore them as if they don’t exist. To some extent we all have that weakness as the result of the psychological environment we have inherited from our ancestors. We need a miracle to liberate us from ourselves and it is given to us by a low class Jew who shows us how to live and also, if necessary, gives us the strength to die when faced with oppression and the violation of human rights…
 
I understand that there are some things that are difficult to accept, flad.

But the wise person doesn’t simply reject it just because it’s unpalatable.
I find lamb unpalatable, but I find hell odious.
If the soul isn’t immortal, then it isn’t a soul at all.

Just like if the shape doesn’t have 3 sides, then it isn’t a triangle at all.
God is immortal per se. Do you think the soul is immortal per se, or does it need to be sustained by something, someone outside of itself to go on existing?
If it’s the life force, and it’s immaterial, and it separates from the body, then it must be immortal.

Just like if it’s a triangle, it must have 3 sides.
Could an omnipotent God have created the life force, immaterial and separate from the body that would not be immortal? if you answer ‘‘no’’, then that’s what I meant when I said God has tied his own hands: he has created something that he doesn’t have the power to make it cease to exist.
You do understand that there MUST be a place for a loving God to send people who find His Love so odious.

Surely you see this, yes?
The way you say it suggests that it’s very gracious of God to send people to a place of nonstop torment. It doesn’t get worse than hell. What you’re essentially telling me is that it was impossible for an omnipotent being to come up with a system that would have rewarded God-fearing pious people with the beatific vision and punished the rest of us with a punishment proportionate to our freely consented evil acts, at the end of which I (we) cease to exist? I think the opposite is true. We have the binary system (eternal bliss or eternal misery) because God wanted it precisely that way. He wills that no man should perish, but should they perish he actively wants to satisfy his justice, which is the sole reason why the soul keeps on existing. A conditionally immortal soul-like concept was not beyond God’s infinite mind.
Why should it be different for them than for anyone else here on earth living today? :confused:
Let’s say your a sailor and I forewarn you that if you go south of latitude x, there is a giant waterfall (assuming the earth was flat) and you will surely die. If you do venture past that latitude, you will have made an informed decision. Was the whole world and all the Jews up to the year 30 AD (start of Jesus’ public ministry) aware of the eternal fate that awaited those who failed the final test?
 
What kind of argument can anyone bring up to support eternal torture and punishment for some finite deed - like missing a mass for some frivolous reasons? I would really like to see a reasoned response to this particular question? Are there some theologians or apologists who can present a rational answer?
In blowing out a candle, it doesn’t take two, three, four tries to blow out the candle. It just takes one and the candle goes out. It just takes one mortal sin to blow out the candle of divine life in the soul. And without this divine life of Christ, we are in a different type of life, one without Christ … one without God. And what would a life be like without the light of the world? Dark, very dark, very lonely, very un-good, and a lot more very un-goods as well…desolation.

Because we are no longer in time (past, present,future), we are in eternity and outside of all time. We either have his life or we are dead, without life of Christ. It is just that simple.

Maybe we would like to know more about eternity, but we know enough to make sense of what Jesus has already told us…baptism…to be born again … to have the life of Christ … sonship of the Father … temple of the Holy Spirit. In eternity, this is either a yes or no, and not about numbers of sins.

We will never understand what it means to live in eternity until we arrive, but it has nothing to do with time, even present time. In a way eternity means we are all that we are, and all that we are not. But even that understanding fails. St. John expressed it … Judas went to his own place. Each person is what they are in eternity…with/without Christ.
Psalm 16
And I, being upright, shall see your face, the sight of you, when I wake, will be all that I need.
 
In other words if your view were true it would be the epitome of inconsistency and wouldn’t make sense. Jesus used symbolism because spiritual truth is difficult to grasp by many if not most people. Hell is not a place but a choice. It is not a harsh punishment inflicted by God but ** self-inflicted isolation** as the result of pride and the lust for power - of which there is abundant evidence in this world. Evil people are never content or satisified because the more they have the more they want. Above all they want to be absolute masters of themselves without having to owe allegiance to anyone else including their Creator. In hell they get exactly what they want - which is only just - but what they want isn’t good enough! It doesn’t correspond to their need for love and respect.

On earth tyrants are despised and hated for their diabolical injustice. In hell the damned isolate themselves and pay the price for their lack of compassion. It is not in our interest to regard ourselves as superior to others and ignore them as if they don’t exist. To some extent we all have that weakness as the result of the psychological environment we have inherited from our ancestors. We need a miracle to liberate us from ourselves and it is given to us by a low class Jew who shows us how to live and also, if necessary, gives us the strength to die when faced with oppression and the violation of human rights…
Would you yourself be okay with a hell that is finite in duration? Would you praise God for his magnanimity if he decreed that impenitent souls will be punished in a manner which is finite in both intensity and duration, at the end of which God simply stops to actively sustain that soul?
 
Would you yourself be okay with a hell that is finite in duration? Would you praise God for his magnanimity if he decreed that impenitent souls will be punished in a manner which is finite in both intensity and duration, at the end of which God simply stops to actively sustain that soul?
I can state for myself. I’m “okay” with whatever God does with hell, as it’s not my business and my only hope is to keep myself and everyone I know out of there.
 
In blowing out a candle, it doesn’t take two, three, four tries to blow out the candle. It just takes one and the candle goes out. It just takes one mortal sin to blow out the candle of divine life in the soul. And without this divine life of Christ, we are in a different type of life, one without Christ … one without God. And what would a life be like without the light of the world? Dark, very dark, very lonely, very un-good, and a lot more very un-goods as well…desolation.

Because we are no longer in time (past, present,future), we are in eternity and outside of all time. We either have his life or we are dead, without life of Christ. It is just that simple.

Maybe we would like to know more about eternity, but we know enough to make sense of what Jesus has already told us…baptism…to be born again … to have the life of Christ … sonship of the Father … temple of the Holy Spirit. In eternity, this is either a yes or no, and not about numbers of sins.

We will never understand what it means to live in eternity until we arrive, but it has nothing to do with time, even present time. In a way eternity means we are all that we are, and all that we are not. But even that understanding fails. St. John expressed it … Judas went to his own place. Each person is what they are in eternity…with/without Christ.
Then the system is flawed, runs counter to any concept of justice. Hard to fathom it being the product of a perfect mind. The mass skipper will end up spending eternity alongside the Muslim who cold-bloodely and meticulouly prepared a mass murder consisting of going to a popular street and running over (and hopefully killing)as many people as he could with a truck? .Each gets an eternity sentence.
 
Then the system is flawed, runs counter to any concept of justice. Hard to fathom it being the product of a perfect mind. The mass skipper will end up spending eternity alongside the Muslim who cold-bloodely and meticulouly prepared a mass murder consisting of going to a popular street and running over (and hopefully killing)as many people as he could with a truck? .Each gets an eternity sentence.
The point isn’t about the number or severity of sins but rather one quality of the person themselves. Do they or do they not have the life of Jesus … the sonship of the Father. That is required … nothing else.

The details of hell or how hell is carried out, have not been explained to us except that there is suffering. And whatever details we supply are guesses.
Psalm 79
Bring us back, O God of hosts: let your face shine on us and we shall be saved.
 
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