Billy Graham, Altar Calls and the Bible

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thessalonian:
Altar calls are when a sermon has been preached and then people are asked to come up in front of the Church and say a sinners prayer, repenting of their sins and putting their trust in Jesus. Many times people pray over them. This is supposed to be their moment of conversion to Christ.
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I experienced this when I attended my first and last B.A.S.I.C. meeting at my college. I felt way too out of place and I decided after that I cannot go to that club anymore. I’m a Catholic and I do not believe in Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.
 
For an Evangelical, the** altar call** involves becoming “born again” often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be “born again.”

“If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe he died for your sins, you’ll be born again!” says the preacher. So the gentleman makes “a decision for Christ” and at the altar call goes forward to be led in “the sinner’s prayer” by the minister. Then the minister tells all who prayed the sinner’s prayer that they have been saved—“born again.” Is that about right? or is it? Not according to the Bible. We as Catholics are born again at Babtism as I hope to explain below…

Regeneration (being “born again”) is the transformation from death to life that occurs in our souls when we first come to God and are justified. He washes us clean of our sins and gives us a new nature, breaking the power of sin over us so that we will no longer be its slaves, but its enemies, who must fight it as part of the Christian life (cf. Rom. 6:1–22; Eph. 6:11–17). To understand the biblical teaching of being born again, we must understand the terms it uses to refer to this event.

The term “born again” may not appear in the Bible. The Greek phrase often translated “born again” (gennatha anothen) occurs twice in the Bible—John 3:3 and 3:7—and there is a question of how it should be translated. The Greek word another sometimes can be translated “again,” but in the New Testament, it most often means “from above.” In the King James Version, the only two times it is translated “again” are in John 3:3 and 3:7; every other time it is given a different rendering.

These different ways of talking about being “born again” describe effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being “born of water and the Spirit.” In Greek, this phrase is, literally, “born of water and Spirit,” indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than “born of water and of the Spirit,” as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.

In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. Peter mentioned this transformation from sin to grace when he exhorted people to “be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38).

The context of Jesus’ statements in John 3 makes it clear that he was referring to water baptism. Shortly before Jesus teaches Nicodemus about the necessity and regenerating effect of baptism, he himself was baptized by John the Baptist, and the circumstances are striking: Jesus goes down into the water, and as he is baptized, the heavens open, the Holy Spirit descends upon him in the form of a dove, and the voice of God the Father speaks from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son” (cf. Matt. 3:13–17; Mark 1:9–11; Luke 3:21–22; John 1:30–34). This scene gives us a graphic depiction of what happens at baptism: We are baptized with water, symbolizing our dying with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and our rising with Christ to the newness of life (Rom. 6:4–5); we receive the gift of sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27); and we are adopted as God’s sons (Rom. 8:15–17).

After our Lord’s teaching that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1–21), “Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized” (John 3:22).

The truth that regeneration comes through baptism is confirmed elsewhere in the Bible. Paul reminds us in Titus 3:5 that God “saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.”

Paul also said, “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:3–4).

This teaching—that baptism unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection so that we might die to sin and receive new life—is a key part of Paul’s theology. In Colossians 2:11–13, he tells us, “In [Christ] you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision [of] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ” (NIV).
 
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SPOKENWORD:
.Great first step. Next comes the fact that you must abide in Him and obey Him. Just because one says the sinners prayer alone doesn,t mean they are automatically saved. It requires an action on our part. Just because you sleep in the garage doesnt mean you are a car. 😃 Just because you go to church doesn,t mean you are a Christian. :confused: God Bless
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sounds like a “work” if you ask me.
 
Deus Vult:
For an Evangelical, the** altar call** involves becoming “born again” often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be “born again.”…

…These different ways of talking about being “born again” describe effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being “born of water and the Spirit.” In Greek, this phrase is, literally, “born of water and Spirit,” indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than “born of water and of the Spirit,” as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.
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Hello Deus Vult,

Jesus tells us one must be begotten of God to enter into the Kingdom of God and Nicodemus then translates this into “born again”. We as Catholics believe that Jesus is begotten of God. So the question becomes when/how is Jesus begotten of God? Here are some scriptures that look at Jesus spiritual birth to God.

Please visit Jesus Loves God

NAB PSA 2:4He who is throned in heaven laughs; the LORD derides them; Then in anger he speaks to them; he terrifies them in his wrath: “I myself have set up my king on Zion, my holy mountain. I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: The LORD said to me, 'You are my son; this day I have begotten you. Ask of me and I will give you the nations for an inheritance and the ends of the earth for your possession. You shall rule them with an iron rod: you shall shatter them like an earthen dish.’” NAB ACT 13:32

“We ourselves announce to you the good news that what God promised our fathers he has fulfilled for us, their children, in raising up Jesus, according to what is written in the second psalm, You are my son; this day I have begotten you.” **NAB JOH 3:3 **

Jesus gave him this answer: “I solemnly assure you, no one can see the reign of God unless he is begotten from above.” “How can a man be born again once he is old?” retorted Nicodemus. “Can he return to his mother’s womb and be born over again?” Jesus replied: “I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God’s kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit.”

NAB 1PE 3:18

He was put to death insofar as fleshly existence goes, but was given life in the realm of the spirit.NAB HEB 1:5 Messianic Enthronement.

To which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my son; today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be his father, and he shall be my son”? And again, when he leads his first-born into the world, he says, “Let all the angels of God worship him.” NAB REV 1:4 Greetings.

To the seven churches in the province of Asia: John wishes you grace and peace – from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before the throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the first-born from the dead and ruler of the kings of earth.NAB PSA 89:27

“He shall say of me, ‘You are my father, my God, the Rock, my savior.’ And I will make him the first-born, highest of the kings of the earth.” NAB COL 1:15 Fullness and Reconciliation.

He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creatures. In him everything in heaven and on earth was created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominations, principalities, or powers; all were created through him, and for him. He is before all else that is. In him everything continues in being. It is he who is head of the body, the church; he who is the beginning, the** first-born of the dead**, so that primacy may be his in everything.
 
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thessalonian:
Your missing the whole point of my thread. We Catholics don’t make statements like “where’s that in the Bible?”. We do make statements like Albert Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary:
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“Whatever’s in the Bible we have to believe but we can’t go one step beyond the Bible.”
In complaining about a couple of Lutheran theologians he says:
“There is no particular scripture that says I can’t do this so I can do it and if I can do it I should do it. I would argue that this is the reversal of a proper biblical and theological logic”.

Therefore this thread is not about being fair. Do you think his statements are and those like this I hear regularly from Protestants are abuse of Sola Scriptura at least? Or is he being hypocritical in condemning things Catholics do (which he does regularly) while ignoring Billy Graham and Altar calls.Blessings Well, I don’t know the context, but as they stand, yes, they are an abuse (IMHO). My point was in answer to the suggestion that what Billy Graham is doing is somehow contrary to accepted practice. The thing that people don’t see, is that BG has people as counselors who are telling people about living a Christian life, including being baptized if they aren’t yet. I suspect that Mohler (who I am not familiar with, so just my take on your quotes) is being unwise. People are going to hear him & think that they can do anything that isn’t in the Bible.
I was responding to what sounded like a criticism of Billy Graham. He is a great Christian (who takes a lot of flak from fundamentalists for encouraging Catholics to be better Catholics, & Methodists to be better Methodists, etc) who wants to have more people living a Christian life, motivated by a real sorrow for sin, & a love for God. I am sorry if I was not taking your point.
But I don’t think we should put these 2 men in the same basket. That was my point. God bless.
 
**NAB JOH 3:3 **

Jesus gave him this answer: “I solemnly assure you, no one can see the reign of God unless he is begotten from above.” “How can a man be born again once he is old?” retorted Nicodemus. “Can he return to his mother’s womb and be born over again?” Jesus replied: “I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God’s kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit.”

Exactly…I think we are on the same page. My point was that these alter calls are what the born again crowd thinks is their salvation. You are right with your quote above “begotten from above” and "begotten of water and Spirit. I mentioned John 3:3 in my thread as well. I liked your website…I will visit it again.
 
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thessalonian:
Time and time again I have been asked by non-catholics to show explicitly where something is in the Bible. If I can’t show explicit evidence (I can always show implicit evidence) it is denied. Well I have been searching through the Bible and am having a difficult time finding an altar call anywhere in scripture that does not include baptisms. The Peter Bar Jona Crusade on Pentecost had 3000 come forward and be baptized. A few days later 4000 were baptized. The Jailor, Cornelius, Lydia all were baptized. Nowhere is there a crusade where people come forward and say a sinners prayers, therefore being declared as Christians. Am I missing something? Perhaps you have a proof from scripture for this Protestant practice?

Look forward to your replys.

🙂

Peace.
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Hi thessalonian,
Leviticus 17:1-7… is more of a prohibition,(what not to do)
Romans 12:1… points the correct way, (what to do)
…at The Eucharistic celebration we are invited to “lift up our hearts” …to the Lord at the Altar.
Matt.23:19…John 17:17 … tells us why.
Rev.11:1… "God counts those who worship at the Altar."

What I think an oxy-moron is that protestants DO “altar calls” but have no altars.
We Catholics have Altars but generally have no clue what they are for, nor do we DO “altar calls”. 😃

gusano
 
I was a Billy Graham counsellor for several years, and I think it is a useful thing to do. The scriptural reference for an altar call is “if you believe with your heart and confess with your mouth, you will be saved.” (I forget where this is.)
The sinner’s prayer (act of contrition, if you will) is the first step to a life with Jesus as its center. Then people are encouraged to join a church, be baptized, study and attend church regularly. All good stuff. The only problem is that it doesn’t go far enough, as Protestant churches lack the True Presence in the Eucharist as well as other things.
Billy Graham is a faithful Christian who has pointed many to heaven. He presents the gospel in a simple and humble way that many people can relate to.
 
**Billy Graham is a faithful Christian ** Except when he’s bad-mouthing the Jews.
 
depends on what baptism they were referring to…there’s the baptism into the kingdom of god by confessing and excepting christ as your lord and saviour…that is the new birth…then there’s baptism in the holy ghost…then there’s traditional baptism in water…which is an outward expression of an inward faith…in my opinion when they refer to baptism i believe they are talking about the initial work of salvation upon accepting christ…then there is the work of baptism in the holy ghost that follows after…no where in scriptures does it say that you have to be baptized in water to be saved…please you want to discuss the baptism in water in greater detail…i’ll be happy to ablige you…but, there is nothing we can do in the natural…in this physical world…that has a spiritual impact on our salvation…it is all a matter of the heart (the spirit)…we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths…we shall be saved…simple as that…anything outside of believing is trying to establishing your salvation by works…then there’s…the age old arguement…what happens to the people that believe but don’t have time to get baptized in water???..there is no physical aspects of water that affects anything in the spirit realm…what i’m trying to say is…people seem like they feel a need to have a tradition or have some kind of ritual in order to be saved…but its easier than that…you just have to believe…thats it…simple…christ said it himself…all you have to do is believe…

Ceasar
 
I am simply not seeing any explanations here of why everyone was baptized immediately upon their conversion after the great commission was given to the Apostles. Why do billy graham crusades not baptize people on the spot as Peter and others did?

If believe is all that is neccessary then why is it said:

Mark.16


  1. ]16] He who believes and is* baptized** will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

    I remain unconvinced that there is any verse that says that altar calls are the way to go. Lot’s of handwaving.
 
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Franz:
sounds like a “work” if you ask me.
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Yes,Our salvation is a gift,BUT you have to use it to be effective. If you recieve a gift and put it under your bed how is it of any use if it just sits there? :confused: God Bless
 
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gusano:
We Catholics have Altars but generally have no clue what they are for, nor do we DO “altar calls”. 😃
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I beg to differ. The Catholic Church has an alter call at every single mass when we come forward to receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. 🙂
 
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ceasar:
depends on what baptism they were referring to…there’s the baptism into the kingdom of god by confessing and excepting christ as your lord and saviour…that is the new birth…then there’s baptism in the holy ghost…then there’s traditional baptism in water…which is an outward expression of an inward faith…in my opinion when they refer to baptism i believe they are talking about the initial work of salvation upon accepting christ…then there is the work of baptism in the holy ghost that follows after…
no where in scriptures does it say that you have to be baptized in water to be saved…
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.
John 3:5…"I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God’s kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit."
please you want to discuss the baptism in water in greater detail…i’ll be happy to ablige you…but, there is nothing we can do in the natural…in this physical world…that has a spiritual impact on our salvation…it is all a matter of the heart (the spirit)…we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths…we shall be saved…simple as that…anything outside of believing is trying to establishing your salvation by works…then there’s…the age old arguement…what happens to the people that believe but don’t have time to get baptized in water???..
there is no physical aspects of water that affects anything in the spirit realm
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I disagree.
1 John 5:6-8 …"Jesus Christ is who came through water and blood—not in water only, but in water and blood.
It is the Spirit who testifies to this, and the Spirit is truth.
Thus there are three that testtify ,
The Spirit and the water and the blood— and these three are of one accord…"
are you trying to break the " ONE ACCORD" ?
…what i’m trying to say is…people seem like they feel a need to have a tradition or have some kind of ritual in order to be saved…but its easier than that…you just have to believe…thats it…simple…christ said it himself…all you have to do is believe…

Ceasar
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I do not agree with that either. ( don’t forget “and OBEY”! )
anyone who looks for an “easier way” , …in my opinion is a minimalist.
As Jesus was being baptized in water he said “We must do this if we would fulfill all of God’s demands.” **
Mark 16:16 He says"The man who believes (the Gospel) and accepts baptism will be saved.; the man who refuses to believe in it will be condemned."**

According to 1John 5:…anyone who does not have The Spirit, the Water , and the Blood, does not possess life.
"whoever possesses the Son (according to verses 6,7) possesses life.
Whoever does not possess the Son (according to verses 6,7) …
does not possess life."

It is already very easy, (compared to what it cost Him), by trying to make it “EASIER”…one can easily void (for ourselves) The New Covenant.
and I hope you are aware of how God feels about those who do not Keep The New Covenant."
🙂

gusano
 
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Mickey:
I beg to differ. The Catholic Church has an alter call at every single mass when we come forward to receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. 🙂
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O.K. Mickey,
I take it back, you are one of the Catholics who does have a clue ! …Alleluia !
but there are many among us*****… who just do it because to them it is only an obligation …instead of an opportunity.

***** easy pickins’… for those who draw others to apostasy, in Mat.13:41

Are you aware that you can fulfill Romans 12:1 at the Altar…?
When the Priest invites us to… Lift up our hearts,"

God Bless you
🙂

gusano
 
Hi, thessalonian,

I just had a thought. You know how the Church teaches
about ‘baptism of desire’? Wouldn’t that cover altar
calls and accepting Christ as you Lord and Savior?

quote: thessalonian:
This is supposed to be their moment of conversion to Christ.
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Why ‘supposed’ to be. It is.

reen12
 
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reen12:
Hi, thessalonian,

I just had a thought. You know how the Church teaches
about ‘baptism of desire’? Wouldn’t that cover altar
calls and accepting Christ as you Lord and Savior?

quote: thessalonian:

Why ‘supposed’ to be. It is.

reen12
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You miss the point of the thread. It’s not about what I or the Catholic Church thinks about altar calls. It is about justifying them in light of the rigid sola scriptura position that some like Mr. Mohler have, saying we don’t go one iotta beyond what is written. See my post above concerning Mr. Mohler’s comments.
 
Dear thessalonian,

You’re right.

The ‘baptism of desire’ is off-topic.

I was challenging your statement:

“This is supposed to be their moment of conversion to Christ.”

I was hoping for a clarification of the above statement.

Best regards,
reen12
 
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thessalonian:
I am simply not seeing any explanations here of why everyone was baptized immediately upon their conversion after the great commission was given to the Apostles. Why do billy graham crusades not baptize people on the spot as Peter and others did?If believe is all that is neccessary then why is it said:
Mark.1616] He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned…
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When the great commission was given almost nobody was baptized at all…This was the “ground floor”. And many/most of those being baptized were adults to start with.
.Today, there are many baptized Christians,most baptized as babies… But many have no relationship to God . They don’t believe in anything…They don’t need baptizing; they need to start taking faith seriously.
And if Billy Graham started baptizing people all over, many churches would rise up against it. That would turn them all into Southern Baptists. That is not what he wants, which is why many fundamentalists don’t like him!!
The altar call is just a way for people to express their new faith & to get some counsel on what to do next! Which, if they are not baptized, would mean going to their pastor & requesting it! But the 1st step has to be realizing that they are going the wrong way! Then it is over to the church to pick up from there.
 
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