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reen12
Guest
Oh, well said, Zooey!!
reen12
reen12
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gusano
Guest
Mickey said:
Thank you Mickey
I like that burning heart…doesn’t it remind you of Luke 12:49 and Luke 24:32 ?..it sure reminds me !
I think it is like us placing another log (us) in the fire which Christ is wishing were already ignited …don’t you think ?
The Peace of Christ to you
and your loved ones
gusano
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thessalonian
Guest
I retract the word supposedly and do not judge the conversions at altar calls.
Peace
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reen12
Guest
Many thanks for your reply, thessalonian.
And thanks for starting this thread,
Kindest regards,
reen12
And thanks for starting this thread,
Kindest regards,
reen12
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thessalonian
Guest
Zoey,
That’s a nice rationalizatoin but it completely misses the boat. By what authority has Billy Graham in the 20th Century decided doing these altar calls. This thread is not about the meritts of altar calls. It is about where does the authority for them come from. Where is his scriputral support for doing them? or are they a tradition of men started by a man. What authority do these men have? Are they going beyond scripture as Mr. Mohler charges a couple of Lutheran theologians with, but won’t openly criticize his fellow Southern Baptist Mr. Graham. Even see evidence on the net that Mr. Mohler is invloved in altar calls. Here are Mr. Mohler’s direct quotes. I can even point you to a audio of them if you want to hear them from the horses mouth.
“Whatever’s in the Bible we have to believe but we can’t go one step beyond the Bible.”
In complaining about a couple of Lutheran theologians he says:
He says:
“There is no particular scripture that says I can’t do this so I can do it and if I can do it I should do it. I would argue that this is the reversal of a proper biblical and theological logic”.
Once again don’t get me wrong. I am not making a judgement on them or the people who go through them. I just don’t see them in the Bible. I am told all the time, you can’t show me anywhere where someone prays to someone who has died. I of course have verses that I believe imply that this is a good thing to do. I see a few verses that could implicitly refer to altar calls. But it is in my view no more explicit than praying to saints. The problem is if Protestants are going to use the arguement “nowhere in the bible does it say” and the Bible is our authority and like Mr. Mohler, a Southern Baptist like Billy Graham says if it’s not in the Bible we shouldn’t be doing it, then he and Billy Graham either need to drop altar calls or exmaine the arguements they use against other Christians. I believe it is the latter and I believe that authority is the issue. If we are going to have practices outside of scripture, there has to be proper authority telling what they are going to be and insuring they don’t violate what is in the Bible. So either give me Bible verses or deal with the issue at hand.
Blessings
That’s a nice rationalizatoin but it completely misses the boat. By what authority has Billy Graham in the 20th Century decided doing these altar calls. This thread is not about the meritts of altar calls. It is about where does the authority for them come from. Where is his scriputral support for doing them? or are they a tradition of men started by a man. What authority do these men have? Are they going beyond scripture as Mr. Mohler charges a couple of Lutheran theologians with, but won’t openly criticize his fellow Southern Baptist Mr. Graham. Even see evidence on the net that Mr. Mohler is invloved in altar calls. Here are Mr. Mohler’s direct quotes. I can even point you to a audio of them if you want to hear them from the horses mouth.
“Whatever’s in the Bible we have to believe but we can’t go one step beyond the Bible.”
In complaining about a couple of Lutheran theologians he says:
He says:
“There is no particular scripture that says I can’t do this so I can do it and if I can do it I should do it. I would argue that this is the reversal of a proper biblical and theological logic”.
Once again don’t get me wrong. I am not making a judgement on them or the people who go through them. I just don’t see them in the Bible. I am told all the time, you can’t show me anywhere where someone prays to someone who has died. I of course have verses that I believe imply that this is a good thing to do. I see a few verses that could implicitly refer to altar calls. But it is in my view no more explicit than praying to saints. The problem is if Protestants are going to use the arguement “nowhere in the bible does it say” and the Bible is our authority and like Mr. Mohler, a Southern Baptist like Billy Graham says if it’s not in the Bible we shouldn’t be doing it, then he and Billy Graham either need to drop altar calls or exmaine the arguements they use against other Christians. I believe it is the latter and I believe that authority is the issue. If we are going to have practices outside of scripture, there has to be proper authority telling what they are going to be and insuring they don’t violate what is in the Bible. So either give me Bible verses or deal with the issue at hand.
Blessings
M
Mickey
Guest
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Peace-bwu
Guest
Br. Rich SFO:
Right, so they can’t condemn Catholics for a practice that is not spelled out in Scripture, yet not condemned.
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gusano
Guest
What they (the babies) really need is to be Catechized into
(1)…the Message
(2)…The Fellowship
(3)…The Eucharist
(4)…The witness
They could call it “Intro to Christianity 101” or “preliminary evangelism”.
I find it interesting that evangelicals have “altar calls” but none of them have an Altar, nor do they believe Altars necessary.
Maybe Billy Graham is on the right track …by bringing attention to the need for Altars among many evangelicals.
after all, … "God is interested in those who Worship at the Altar.’ Rev.11:1
and Jesus does his most excellent work of the universe at our Altars. Matt. 23:19 …while we do (obey) Romans 12:1
gusano
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reen12
Guest
Dear gusano,
R
reen12
Guest
Dear gusano,
after all, … "God is interested in those who Worship at the Altar.’ Rev.11:1
gusano
after all, … "God is interested in those who Worship at the Altar.’ Rev.11:1
gusano
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reen12
Guest
Dear gusano,
I find it helpful to quote Rev 11:1 and 2
Verse 2 clearly referrences the Temple in Jerusalem
and the Court of the Gentiles, according to the
footnote in an online Catholic bible site.
Wouldn’t the point be more telling using the image
in Revelations of the lamb on the altar?
reen12
I find it helpful to quote Rev 11:1 and 2
Verse 2 clearly referrences the Temple in Jerusalem
and the Court of the Gentiles, according to the
footnote in an online Catholic bible site.
Wouldn’t the point be more telling using the image
in Revelations of the lamb on the altar?
reen12
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Zooey
Guest
Great post…I think we are very close to agreeing here; I know we are understanding each other…
I do think that we sometimes get hung up, because we either use the same words to say different things, or we use different things. But this is getting closer…I see what you are saying (unless, of course, I am hung up on language…but I don’t think so.
The one thing I would add: I think that Billy Graham is getting people to recognize their need for (A) catechesis, &(B) all that flows from that. It is, perhaps, “remedial Christianity” that he offers.
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Zooey
Guest
In fairness, again, BG did not invent the altar call. It has been part of the evangelical tradition long before he was even born. But he uses the tradition in a new way, not as a way to pull people out of their churches, but to make them realize that faith must be personal to be real…That, as a Methodist pastor of my acquaintance–recently called home to his eternal home–was fond of saying: “God has children; but He does not have grandchildren”.
If you follow my posts in these forums, you must know that I do not reject something because it is tradition to you; I would ask that, though you may disagree w/me, you do not reject something–the altar call–simply because it is a tradition of another branch of Christianity.
God bless.
Z
Zooey
Guest
(A) I am a Methodist; Methodists do not reject things because they are tradition. Tradition is part of the Wesley Quadrilateral (along with the Bible, common sense/logic, and experience.(B) I highlighted,pointing out that I have all ready said that I do not put Mohler in the same category w/ Graham.I do not agree w/what I see in the quote from Mohler. I cannot totally reject him w/o reading what he said in context. (Provide me w/a link, & I will do that!)(C) I fully agree w/you on the comparison w/praying to the saints. As it happens,in fact, I do pray to the saints. God bless.
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thessalonian
Guest
First of all I am new here and do not know all the players. Sorry if I am not familiar with what you specifically believe. I’m working on it.
Once again read my posts carefully as well. Nowhere have I blasted altar calls and that is not the purpose of my thread. In fact there are things like it in Catholicsm. Renawals of our consecrations to the Sacred heart of Jesus for instance. I do not know where they started but I know one thing. They are not the historical, pre-reformation way of bringing people in to the faith. Mohler and Billy Graham are both Southern Baptists so I would expect them to agree on things.
I am going to send you the show that I heard this on PM because it is from an anti-catholic and I don’t want to advertise for them. There’s alot of nonsens and misrepresentations of Catholicism by the guest.
Blessings
T
thessalonian
Guest
So that all know the intent behind this thread, it is not a bash on Billy Graham. I actually have high regard for him. I have heard Protestants lately bash him because he called JP II “the greatest spiritual leader of the 20th Century”. Altar calls as a rededication to faith I think are likely a good thing and we have things similar in Catholicism. They do undermine the meaning of baptism from my perspective.
No the root theme of this thread is sola scriptura. If the president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary gives a definition and it does not fit with what another Southern Baptist, Billy Graham, is doing in practice then it is hypocritical to argue against Catholics who find things implicit in scripture. There is a serious problem with either the definition of Sola Scriptura or the definition of legitimate authority in Protestant circles or both. Sola Scriptura is called a tenant upon which the reformation stands or falls. Yet I get one definition from you. Another from a Lutheran and then the hard line view of Mr. Mohler (among other definitions). So will the real sola scriptura that is one of the three pillars of Protestantism stand up? Not likely.
Blessings
No the root theme of this thread is sola scriptura. If the president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary gives a definition and it does not fit with what another Southern Baptist, Billy Graham, is doing in practice then it is hypocritical to argue against Catholics who find things implicit in scripture. There is a serious problem with either the definition of Sola Scriptura or the definition of legitimate authority in Protestant circles or both. Sola Scriptura is called a tenant upon which the reformation stands or falls. Yet I get one definition from you. Another from a Lutheran and then the hard line view of Mr. Mohler (among other definitions). So will the real sola scriptura that is one of the three pillars of Protestantism stand up? Not likely.
Blessings
T
thessalonian
Guest
Any defenders of Mr. Mohler’s statements?
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gusano
Guest
I agree with you that it is helpfull to quote both verses.
v:1…"Someone gave me a measiring rod and said: 'Come and take the measurements of God’s temple and altar, and count those who worship there.
v:2…“exclude the outer court of the temple, however; do not measure it, for it has been handed over to the Gentiles, who will crush the holy city for forty-two months.” Rev.11:1,2 NAB
I see those two verses in a prophetic light, since John is acting out of the command in chap.10:11…"you must prophesy…"
and not merely in a historical-geographical sense… that would apply only to the temple and altar in Jerusalem at the time John was inspired to write this.
In otherwords, I believe today God pays close attention to those who worship at The Altar(s)
I also agree with you that The Lamb of God is always present at The Altar(s)…present at the same time at the Altar in heaven and at the Altars in each parrish…which makes Mass an awesome place to worship.
The “outer court” of the temple …handed over to the Gentiles has a profound message,I think,
…much more than one can type into these threads.
The Peace of Christ to you,
gusano
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gusano
Guest
Mickey,
Do you ever think your heart is burning while you are experiencing The Mass ?
gusano
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reen12
Guest
Dear gusano,
gusano:
Thanks for your reply,
reen12
Excellent points, I think.
Thanks for your reply,
reen12
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