Biology / science / ressurrection

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Wouldnt it be fair to say that almost EVERY SCIENTIST WOULD ANSWER THAT IT IS SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THIS SCENARIO TO HAPPEN???

Is it scientifically possible for a human being to actually physically die and be dead for three days and then rise again and be alive? can we all agree most scientists would that that is impossible from a scientific perspective???
 
Wouldnt it be fair to say that almost EVERY SCIENTIST WOULD ANSWER THAT IT IS SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THIS SCENARIO TO HAPPEN???

Is it scientifically possible for a human being to actually physically die and be dead for three days and then rise again and be alive? can we all agree most scientists would that that is impossible from a scientific perspective???
Um, Roger, some scientists are also Christians. We do believe in miracles. If it is scientifically possible, it isn’t a miracle, now is it?

I guess I would turn the question around on you, Roger. Since Christ rose from the dead and that isn’t possible scientifically, do you reject science?

Peace

Tim
 
Roger << Is it scientifically possible for a human being to actually physically die and be dead for three days and then rise again and be alive? can we all agree most scientists would say that is impossible from a scientific perspective??? >>

Answer: Science does not speak to miracles. Does science “reject” miracles as “impossible” ? Not really, since science simply assumes natural explanations for events. It is a concept known as “methodological naturalism.” There are some differences/distinctions in the things you have mentioned however.

The Resurrection of Jesus can be argued on historical grounds as the "best explanation" (best explanatory scope and power, etc), E.G. all of William Lane Craig’s debates do this successfully. This “best explanation” that “God raised Jesus from the dead” only entails one assumption: that God exists. But this assumption can be argued for on other grounds (classic arguments for God, etc).

The Virgin Birth (or virginal conception) would be a miracle, but also can be argued on historical grounds, E.G. the Protestant theologian Machen’s The Virgin Birth of Christ is probably your classic book and best defense on the subject. For a recent Catholic view see Raymond Brown’s Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus or evangelical Gromacki’s The Virgin Birth: A Biblical Study of the Deity of Jesus Christ as good defenses of this doctrine with answers to objections.

The persons of Adam/Eve would not be miracle per se, but can be traced back to a particular place and time. To summarize Catholic philosopher Dennis Bonnette:

“…evolutionary science sees the broad picture of human origins taking place over a time-frame measured in hundreds of thousands, or even millions of years. It cannot focus on events affecting a single pair of humans at a given point in time. Anthropological data and theories are so general that they cannot oppose particular facts about an Adam and Eve, unless even the broad trends of such data are shown to oppose such particulars’ possibilities. Speculation based upon present data can, at best, indicate the nature and activities of early humans, pointing to largely undefined populations and imprecise time periods. It cannot address with precision the conditions of existence of a single pair of humans at a particular, distant-past time. It cannot exclude, a priori, the possibility of miraculous divine intervention whose reality falls entirely outside the fossil record.” (From my Adam, Eve, and the Hominid Fossil Record)

What is a “miracle” or not testable by science is the point at which they, among the population of hominids/humans living at the time, were given spiritual souls by God (whether this happened instantly, or over a period of time is another question). This can be historically / culturally / anthropologically estimated by first evidence of "hominization" (when we became human) from (1) first presence of self-awareness (consciousness), (2) the presence of language, (3) the presence of religion.

My view (and the view I think of recent Popes at least) is that Catholic dogma should not be in conflict with science where dogma and science might overlap. Science does not speak for or against miracles, nor such things as the sacraments (God working through material things, i.e. Baptism, Eucharist, grace, salvation, forgiveness of sins, God raising people from the dead, God curing people, etc). It simply assumes natural explanations.

Phil P
 
If it is scientifically possible, it isn’t a miracle, now is it?
I’m not sure if the Church has a definition of miracle which includes the word science. But it seems to me that your definition above is too narrow.

For example, Moses, the exodus, etc. Perhaps (as the History Channel - or maybe it was Nat Geo suggests) an island in the Mediterranean sea exploded, sending ash into the air, which turned the Nile red (and caused pollution leading to frogs, flies, etc.). And then a subsequent volcanic explosion caused a tsunami which caused the Red sea to temporarily retreat, and then wash back in later. etc. etc. This, of course is all scientifically “possible.”

But what about the fact that Moses appears in Egypt, confronts Pharaoh, etc. just at the right time? Science would explain this as just a coincidence.

And then Moses appears with a million or so Hebrews at the edge of the Red Sea at just the right time to take advantage of the tsunami. Another coincidence.

I think the whole episode can be classified as a miracle due to the improbability of the events, independently of their scientific impossibility.

Is the Exodus a miraculous event to you, or not?
 
But what about the fact that Moses appears in Egypt, confronts Pharaoh, etc. just at the right time? Science would explain this as just a coincidence.

And then Moses appears with a million or so Hebrews at the edge of the Red Sea at just the right time to take advantage of the tsunami. Another coincidence.

I think the whole episode can be classified as a miracle due to the improbability of the events, independently of their scientific impossibility.
What is your definition of a miracle? Would it include anything that is improbable? What if I toss a coin 10 times and get heads each time? That is pretty improbable.
Is the Exodus a miraculous event to you, or not?
Parts of it is miraculous, but part of it I would not consider miraculous. I’m just not sure I would agree that Moses being in the right place at the right time is something I would consider a miracle.

Peace

Tim
 
Wouldnt it be fair to say that almost EVERY SCIENTIST WOULD ANSWER THAT IT IS SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THIS SCENARIO TO HAPPEN???

Is it scientifically possible for a human being to actually physically die and be dead for three days and then rise again and be alive? can we all agree most scientists would that that is impossible from a scientific perspective???
Most scientists would say that it was impossible** to make any scientific claims about** the resurrection of Jesus.

I can’t test it. I can’t repeat it. I didn’t observe it. It didn’t happen under controlled conditions.

Scientist often say that things are impossible, but they are leaving out a really important part of the sentence. They are leaving out, “given what we know about…” New information creates new possibilities.

Most scientists would not say the resurrection is impossible. No one has enough information to make that kind of claim.
 
Wouldnt it be fair to say that almost EVERY SCIENTIST WOULD ANSWER THAT IT IS SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THIS SCENARIO TO HAPPEN???

Is it scientifically possible for a human being to actually physically die and be dead for three days and then rise again and be alive? can we all agree most scientists would that that is impossible from a scientific perspective???
Most scientists will say this is scientifically impossible. This does not make the resurrection impossible though. Whenever we speak of things being scientifically possible, we are always speaking of our knowledge and our capabilities. From our perspective, it’s scientifically impossible. As for God though, all things are possible.
 
For example, Moses, the exodus, etc. Perhaps (as the History Channel - or maybe it was Nat Geo suggests) an island in the Mediterranean sea exploded, sending ash into the air, which turned the Nile red (and caused pollution leading to frogs, flies, etc.). And then a subsequent volcanic explosion caused a tsunami which caused the Red sea to temporarily retreat, and then wash back in later. etc. etc. This, of course is all scientifically “possible.”
No it wouldn’t. there is no way a tsunami could cause the Red Sea to “temporarily retreat” so that it could be crossed on foot. It is simply too deep and would take too long to cross.
But what about the fact that Moses appears in Egypt, confronts Pharaoh, etc. just at the right time? Science would explain this as just a coincidence.
And then Moses appears with a million or so Hebrews at the edge of the Red Sea at just the right time to take advantage of the tsunami. Another coincidence.
I think the whole episode can be classified as a miracle due to the improbability of the events, independently of their scientific impossibility.
Is the Exodus a miraculous event to you, or not?
It’s probably ahistorical. Few, if any of the events are corroborated by Egyptian history. There is no evidence for the plagues on Egypt or the parting of the Red Sea or the wandering in the desert. It’s a story not a miracle.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
What is your definition of a miracle? Would it include anything that is improbable? What if I toss a coin 10 times and get heads each time? That is pretty improbable.
Certainly anybody with a lot of time could flip a coin and eventually come up with 10 heads in a row (assuming a non-biased coin). Since anybody could do it in a reasonable time, it’s not a miracle.

On the other hand, if for your whole life, every time you flipped a non-biased coin it came up heads, I’d say that’s a miracle.
 
No it wouldn’t. there is no way a tsunami could cause the Red Sea to “temporarily retreat” so that it could be crossed on foot. It is simply too deep and would take too long to cross.
The exact location of the crossing, or even if it is the Red Sea (as opposed to the Sea of Reeds) is not known.

If it was the Red Sea, then I guess what you’re saying is that it actually was a miracle, and not something that can be explained scientifically.
It’s probably ahistorical. Few, if any of the events are corroborated by Egyptian history. There is no evidence for the plagues on Egypt or the parting of the Red Sea or the wandering in the desert. It’s a story not a miracle.
But certainly you know that history is written by the winners. The Egyptians lost big time. What loser would want posterity to remember such a thing?

The whole King David “story” as it turns out is even now being confirmed by archaeological digs.
 
The exact location of the crossing, or even if it is the Red Sea (as opposed to the Sea of Reeds) is not known.

If it was the Red Sea, then I guess what you’re saying is that it actually was a miracle, and not something that can be explained scientifically.
No. What I’m saying is it didn’t happen. It’s not a miracle. It’s a story, a myth, a fable.
But certainly you know that history is written by the winners. The Egyptians lost big time. What loser would want posterity to remember such a thing?
That wouldn’t explain the complete lack of evidence for a vast number of people wandering in the desert for forty years, or lack of evidence of an influx of people into Israel at the relevant time.

Furthermore, it is a fallacy to say that people do not remember defeats. Viet Nam, Dunkerque, the Somme, Culloden etc show that is not so. There is no written evidence, in a period of detailed written history when other wars are recorded, even for the existence of the Israelites in Egypt. As I said, it is a story, a myth, a fable and not at all supported by history.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Wouldnt it be fair to say that almost EVERY SCIENTIST WOULD ANSWER THAT IT IS SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THIS SCENARIO TO HAPPEN???

Is it scientifically possible for a human being to actually physically die and be dead for three days and then rise again and be alive? can we all agree most scientists would that that is impossible from a scientific perspective???
PLEASE ANSWER THE ACTUAL QUESTION!!! IT IS A SIMPLE YES OR NO ANSWER—THEN WE WILL HAVE FURTHER DISCUSSIONS–THANKS!!! WOULD THEY SAY (SCIENTISTS) THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE???
 
PLEASE ANSWER THE ACTUAL QUESTION!!! IT IS A SIMPLE YES OR NO ANSWER—THEN WE WILL HAVE FURTHER DISCUSSIONS–THANKS!!! WOULD THEY SAY (SCIENTISTS) THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE???
Your question has been answered by three different people. Were the answers not what you wanted to hear?

And is it really necessary to shout?

Peace

Tim
 
PLEASE ANSWER THE ACTUAL QUESTION!!! IT IS A SIMPLE YES OR NO ANSWER—THEN WE WILL HAVE FURTHER DISCUSSIONS–THANKS!!! WOULD THEY SAY (SCIENTISTS) THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE???
I think it’s a miracle that Sam Kinison has been resurrected and is now on this forum. 😛

The answer is YES.

And my follow up question would be since when have scientists been able to explain away everything?
 
No, it’s not scientifically possible for man to rise from the dead. His spirit is gone and he has nothing to raise himself from death. Only God, who is the Lord of souls, can raise one from the dead, and since Christ is God Himself, He can raise Himself from the dead. It is a mystery beyond understanding. Please respect that.
 
I think it’s a miracle that Sam Kinison has been resurrected and is now on this forum. 😛

The answer is YES.

And my follow up question would be since when have scientists been able to explain away everything?
Ok i didnt ask for a follow up question—so scientists say NO!!! a man can’t rise correct?
 
Ok well here is my point. I would hope we would all say science is wrong on this matter. Why (and some people dispute evolution on a scientific basis) cant we say science is wrong on creation? I mean every Pope, in an official way, (not speeches, not interviews etc) almost all the Church Fathers, the theologians in 13th, 14th centuries (Aquinas, Bonaventure, Anselm, ) all interpreted Genesis literally. ALL WERE CREATIONISTS!!! Now science seems to have the answer with evolution. WHY cant we say NO!!! This coupled with Pius XII’s statement in Humani Generis that polygenism can not seem to be compatible with the Catholic faith. Why are we taking science over the magesterium?
 
Ok well here is my point. I would hope we would all say science is wrong on this matter. Why (and some people dispute evolution on a scientific basis) cant we say science is wrong on creation?
Because it isn’t.
I mean every Pope, in an official way, (not speeches, not interviews etc) almost all the Church Fathers, the theologians in 13th, 14th centuries (Aquinas, Bonaventure, Anselm, ) all interpreted Genesis literally. ALL WERE CREATIONISTS!!!
Interestingly, recent popes, when presented the scientific evidence, no longer are strict 6 day creationists. I wonder what the other people you invoked would have said if they had the evidence we now have.
Now science seems to have the answer with evolution. WHY cant we say NO!!!
YOU already have. Why do you insist that the rest of us give up science simply because you have a fundamentalist interpretation of scriptures.
This coupled with Pius XII’s statement in Humani Generis that polygenism can not seem to be compatible with the Catholic faith. Why are we taking science over the magesterium?
We are taking science WITH the magesterium. You are just rejecting the science.

By the way, at least Pope Benedict XVI seems to disagree with the monogenism requirement.

Peace

Tim
 
Tim science is clearly wrong about the resurrection. Why cant it be wrong about evolution? Pope Benedict XVI never said any such thing about monogenism. Even if he did his speeches and private interviews arent Church teaching. They are his private opinions. We have clear magisterial statements that Genesis is to be taken literally. Why can’t we say the resurrection was spiritual and not literal. Science indicates this is impossible.
 
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