Birmingham youth arrested for Pro-Life activism

[Steeltemplar]

Question: Would you who object to graphic images concerning abortion also object to graphic images of the holocaust?

We are shown graphic images of the holocaust and many people say it is necessary so that people understand it. If that is so, then it is surely also necessary to understand the mass slaughter of innocents in our own nation that is abortion.

jspencer said this:

As for handing graphic pictures of dead fetuses to children, I most strongly object. If someone gave my daughter or teenage son pictures of that kind that had better pray the police get to them before I do! I’m not saying that we should do nothing, just not at a school full of children.

You are so outraged by the thought of children seeing a graphic image.

People murdering children, which is what abortion is, should then be more evil and cause more outrage, should it not? I would invite you to show the same passion that you profess here in defending the children whose very lives are at stake.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Many pro-choicers believe a teenager is able to make a decision on abortion and want to remove parental consent, but they don’t think teens can handle the pictures? Something is definately wrong with that “picture”.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Question: Would you who object to graphic images concerning abortion also object to graphic images of the holocaust?

We are shown graphic images of the holocaust and many people say it is necessary so that people understand it. If that is so, then it is surely also necessary to understand the mass slaughter of innocents in our own nation that is abortion.

jspencer said this:

You are so outraged by the thought of children seeing a graphic image.

People murdering children, which is what abortion is, should then be more evil and cause more outrage, should it not? I would invite you to show the same passion that you profess here in defending the children whose very lives are at stake.

I hate those pictures!!! But if my daughter or sons were not TOTALLY against abortion, I would shove those pictures on every page of every book they opened. It would sit taped on the bathroom mirror. It would hang from the rearview mirror. I would make sure that it was the very first image that they saw in the morning.

These people…especially the young ones…that do not realize the horrors of abortion DESERVE the right to know the truth about it. If the only way to make sure they recieve that truth is with these images, then that is what it has to be.

 

[Digitonomy]

To my knowledge a public sidewalk is free speech territory. The same issue has come up many times when it comes to sidewalks outside abortion clinics. The courts have always held that citizens are free to demonstrate on public sidewalks outside abortion clinics.

Individual citizens perhaps, but organized marches and demonstrations (however that is defined) often require a permit to be filed. Years ago I witnessed a demonstration at an abortion clinic with scores of protesters on each side. Police had separated the groups, and the pro-life group was required to stay on the other side of the narrow street. With passions as high as they were, a melee probably would have ensued had demonstrators from both sides been able to protest together.

Actually, Colleen, the first two paragraphs of the article clearly states that they were on a public sidewalk:
Nine wrongfully arrested in Birmingham, Alabama for distributing pro-life literature on a public sidewalk

It doesn’t matter if the sidewalk was near or even right next to school property. It’s not school property period, and the protesters had a right to be there to protest abortion or whatever else they wanted.It’s worth noting that the source you quote is Catholic.org. I’m not especially familiar with that site, but I have found that other avowedly pro-life news sources, e.g. LifeSiteNews, are vociferous in raising the alarm about any and every culture of death issue, but not always as dedicated in tracking down the facts of a story.

Here’s what the Birmingham News story said:

Birmingham police officials said today the group arrived at Parker High School about 2 p.m. in the area where buses load and unload and started to set up posters and billboards of aborted fetuses.

Because they were on school property, they were asked to leave, said North Precinct Capt. Lucette McMillan.

There is some discrepancy between our stories. For clarification, let us turn to Google Maps. My guess is that the buses line up along 4th Street to the east of the school - in that case, I would agree that the sidewalk along the street is public property. However, I would say the sidewalk leading up to the school entrance from 4th Street would be school property. It’s also possible that the buses line up along 9th Alley to the north of the school (perhaps someone from Birmingham knows?), in which case one has to walk across the parking spaces to get to the sidewalk. If so, I would question whether that counts as public property.

Regardless of whether it’s public property, we get back to the question of whether it was a legal demonstration.

I would invite you to show the same passion that you profess here in defending the children whose very lives are at stake.

Are you suggesting that jspencer is not passionate about defending the lives of children? I see no reason to make that uncharitable assumption based on his post.

 

[Steeltemplar]

Are you suggesting that jspencer is not passionate about defending the lives of children? I see no reason to make that uncharitable assumption based on his post.

If I was suggesting that, I would have said it. As it is, I left it open-ended. So…no…I am not assuming anything.

All I am saying is that if jspencer is so outraged about kids seeing graphic images, then it is to be hoped that even more passion should be given to the pro-life cause. Nothing wrong or uncharitable there.

 

[Digitonomy]

If I was suggesting that, I would have said it. As it is, I left it open-ended. So…no…I am not assuming anything.

All I am saying is that if jspencer is so outraged about kids seeing graphic images, then it is to be hoped that even more passion should be given to the pro-life cause. Nothing wrong or uncharitable there.

I hope that you, as well, will be passionate in fighting against abortion. I also hope that you won’t beat your wife, or rape and pillage surrounding communities. Not suggesting that you would, just leaving it open-ended.

The trouble with raising these issues at all, is that their very discussion implies there may be reason to suspect they are true. I don’t see any reason to suspect jspencer is not passionate about prolife causes based on his one paragraph - unless you see his post differently, how is expressing your hope about his personal actions topical or charitable?

 

[Steeltemplar]

I hope that you, as well, will be passionate in fighting against abortion. I also hope that you won’t beat your wife, or rape and pillage surrounding communities. Not suggesting that you would, just leaving it open-ended.

The trouble with raising these issues at all, is that their very discussion implies there may be reason to suspect they are true. I don’t see any reason to suspect jspencer is not passionate about prolife causes based on his one paragraph - unless you see his post differently, how is expressing your hope about his personal actions topical or charitable?

jspencer was very strong in what he was saying against the demonstrators, going so far as to say this:

“If someone gave my daughter or teenage son pictures of that kind that had better pray the police get to them before I do!”

That is on the border of threatening, no? He was not being charitable towards them.

What I said was a reminder of what those young people are fighting for. You will note, btw, that I said show not be in reference to passion. So his beliefs were not in question whatsoever. My general assumption would be that he is pro-life. But what I am saying is akin to “show some support for the cause here instead of just bashing the people who are in the trenches”. Please read carefully before replying.

And you are not being charitable towards me either by trying to beat me with “charity” like it is a club.

 

[colleenann]

jspencer and colee - Where do you find any indication that there were graphic images of any kind being used by the pro-life group? Many pro-lifers do not use graphic images at all in their demonstrations. I did not see anything in the articles about such things.

The group that these young people are associated with brag quite loudly about the fact that they do indeed use graphic images on their literature and thier website. I have personally seen some of the literature that is handed out by this group and it is quite graphic.

And I never once said that abortion was right. I said they should not be standing on school property, which they were, handing this stuff out to children without parental consent. If they want to protest teenagers having abortions, then the place they should be standing in front of is one of the clinics that these kids are going to.

Trust me, teenagers do not all think abortion is a nice quiet way to end a pregnancy.

 

[colleenann]

No where in either article does it say anything about “graphic images”.

Updated: Pro-life activists arrested at Birmingham school
Posted by Carol Robinson – Birmingham News February 13, 2009 10:14 AM
A group of pro-life activists were arrested after trying to demonstrate at a Birmingham high school Thursday afternoon.

Birmingham police officials said today the group arrived at Parker High School about 2 p.m. in the area where buses load and unload and started to set up posters and billboards of aborted fetuses.

Because they were on school property, they were asked to leave, said North Precinct Capt. Lucette McMillan.

When they refused, nine people were arrested on trespassing charges, the captain said, and booked into the Birmingham City Jail. All were released by 9 a.m. today.

The college-age protesters are members of the Survivors Campus Life Tour. Supporters of the group are angry at the arrests, claiming the activists were carrying out their constitutional rights on a public sidewalk.

**According to the group’s website, their mission is to use graphic images of abortion and photos of fetal development to challenge students to rethink their position on abortion. **

Members of the same group were recently arrested while distributing literature on a college campus in Virginia.

Apparently, yes, one of the articles did indeed state that.

 

[elts1956]

But what about Free Speech? You’re advocating censorship because you find the means they used to demonstrate their message repugnant. Saving innocent human life is a very important message.

Not all these young people will go onto college; and I know the public high school I attended a while back never discussed the issue of abortion.

These minors (14-18) are well on they’re way to becoming the American citizens of tomorrow.

Well, I’ve done some petition signature collecting work, and yeah, as far as I know, if you’re on a public sidewalk, you are, under the U.S. Constitution, allowed to discuss your message in a civil manner.

The problem is, often, government buildings are often designed
so the sidewalks are like a hundred feet away from the post office door.

I tried to get closer and went on the post office or state property near the door to reach people, and would you guess it?? Every government bureaucrat, state or Federal, told me to go on the sidewalk a hundred feet away.

If you’re actually on the grounds / property of the government building, you have to leave as soon as they ask you too.

No one ever welcomed the fact that I was gathering signatures for an Election for some ballot proposals.

But I’m afraid a lot of people will agree with Colleenann; these kids aren’t supposed to think about mothers who murder their children.

No, they shouldn’t think at all. Go through the diploma mill, and then pay your Federal and State Taxes, and all will be fine and dandy.

Otherwise, the Birmingham Police Department might arrest you and shut you up and throw you in a jail cell for expressing your First Amendment rights under the U.S. Constitution.

Call the cop; better not to think about abortion; we can’t have that.

We can’t have that happen even though we have a First Amendment which hundreds of thousands of men and women of this nation have fought and died for that right at Shiloh, Belleau Wood Omaha Beach, Iwo Jima, Inchon, and Selma, Alabama.

BTW, stuff like these Birmingham Arrests have happened in Michigan too with some people using public sidewalks or public roads protesting abortion or the Iraq War. The people are arrested, and everytime, if they fight it legally, as far as I’ve seen, their right to be there has been upheld under the Constitiution (it is often a lengthy and expensive process).

In my opinion, it is just way too easy for the authorities to have police arrest people who are communicating messages they do not agree with.

Given the school setting however, it would just depend on how the judge feels or thinks about this issue. I could see a judge using their judicial power to carve an exception to the U.S. Constitutional right because, as I mentioned, these young men and women aren’t really supposed to think too hard.

I bet they would have protected the Klan.

Or Aryan Nation.

 

[Walden]

Or Aryan Nation.

Awesome…lets perpetuate stereotypes about Alabama. We won’t offend anyone. They don’t have electricity down there, much less internet.

Just to let you know, the Birmingham PD is mostly Black. The mayor is Black. I’m pretty sure Parker High is almost 100% Black. So lets just leave the whole “It’s Alabama, so they like to burn crosses” thing out of it. I guarantee you that the “Klan” wouldn’t have even made it to the school.

This has nothing to do with Birmingham trying to “silence” abortion critics. The vast majority of us down here DO NOT agree with it. These people messed around on school property and wouldn’t leave. I’m sure they weren’t being loud either.

There are right ways and wrong ways to make your feelings known. Obviously, this group went about it in the wrong way.

 

[elts1956]

Awesome…lets perpetuate stereotypes about Alabama. We won’t offend anyone. They don’t have electricity down there, much less internet.

Just to let you know, the Birmingham PD is mostly Black. The mayor is Black. I’m pretty sure Parker High is almost 100% Black. So lets just leave the whole “It’s Alabama, so they like to burn crosses” thing out of it. I guarantee you that the “Klan” wouldn’t have even made it to the school.

This has nothing to do with Birmingham trying to “silence” abortion critics. The vast majority of us down here DO NOT agree with it. These people messed around on school property and wouldn’t leave. I’m sure they weren’t being loud either.

There are right ways and wrong ways to make your feelings known. Obviously, this group went about it in the wrong way.

My apologies to Birmingham. So how do those city rules read and were the pro life kids on school property? Thanks.

 

[jspencer]

Thank you Digitonomy for coming to my defense. To Steeltemplar I would say “open-ended” didn’t quite describe what I read in your post. But that does not matter, what matters is that we bring abortion in this country to a complete stop.
As for me, I have served my country in the military, as a police officer, as a parent, and as a christian. I will defend your right to say what ever you want about me just as strongly as I will defend my children from anyone who would bring harm to them in any way shape or form.
Standing in front of a school and shoving graphic pictures at children is not charitable, and only makes our side look worse than ever. I take the subject of killing innocents very seriously. I spent a good portion of my life defending the innocent from those who would bring death and tyranny to others, usually at the expense of those least able to defend themselves.
If a parent wants to show graphic images of aborted babies to their children in order to explain the subject to them, then they have that right. But you do not have the right to show those images to my child without my permission, just as you should not have the right to perform an abortion on a child without informing the parents.
Last but not least, please forgive me if I offended anyone, that was not my intention. We should not quarrel amongst ourselves. We need to be united in our fight against the enemy.
My prayers to all.

 

[Steeltemplar]

Thank you Digitonomy for coming to my defense. To Steeltemplar I would say “open-ended” didn’t quite describe what I read in your post. But that does not matter, what matters is that we bring abortion in this country to a complete stop.
As for me, I have served my country in the military, as a police officer, as a parent, and as a christian. I will defend your right to say what ever you want about me just as strongly as I will defend my children from anyone who would bring harm to them in any way shape or form.
Standing in front of a school and shoving graphic pictures at children is not charitable, and only makes our side look worse than ever. I take the subject of killing innocents very seriously. I spent a good portion of my life defending the innocent from those who would bring death and tyranny to others, usually at the expense of those least able to defend themselves.
If a parent wants to show graphic images of aborted babies to their children in order to explain the subject to them, then they have that right. But you do not have the right to show those images to my child without my permission, just as you should not have the right to perform an abortion on a child without informing the parents.
Last but not least, please forgive me if I offended anyone, that was not my intention. We should not quarrel amongst ourselves. We need to be united in our fight against the enemy.
My prayers to all.

I think that sounds good. You are a good man, I am certain. And I am sorry that I may have been offensive.

As you say, we do have a common cause. And my father is a retire military officer, so I respect that service a great deal.

 

[Rleng616]

I am so HAPPY to hear of the activism of the “Birmingham 9” We need more youth to express their free speech rights to protest abortion.

I wonder if the ACLU will be there to protect the rights of the pro lifers. – chuckle - chuckle

Bob-Akron OH-USA

 

[jspencer]

Thank you for your kind words about serving our country. I stand firm in my convictions to protect the innocent and all who cannot stand up for themselves. As someone once said “the only thing evil needs to succeed, is for good men to do nothing”. what frustrates me is how many people don’t see abortion for what it is, MURDER! We live in what is supposed to be one of the most civilized countries in the world, and yet we kill the most innocent and vulnerable of our citizens. As for the “Birmingham youth” I may not agree with their methods but I admire their zeal.
Prayers for all

 

[Geneticsguy]

I hate those pictures!!! But if my daughter or sons were not TOTALLY against abortion, I would shove those pictures on every page of every book they opened. It would sit taped on the bathroom mirror. It would hang from the rearview mirror. I would make sure that it was the very first image that they saw in the morning.

These people…especially the young ones…that do not realize the horrors of abortion DESERVE the right to know the truth about it. If the only way to make sure they recieve that truth is with these images, then that is what it has to be.

:bigyikes: :dts: :doh2:

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

:bigyikes: :dts: :doh2:

What is wrong with the transparency of the abortion? If people want the “right to choose”, then they should be educated exactly on what they think is their right to choose.

If someone says “I want the right to choose chocolate ice cream”, don’t they also need to know what chocolate ice cream tastes like?
If they want to say “I want the right to choose murder for my unborn baby”, then shouldn’t they know exactly what the baby looks like before, during and after the murder?

To close our eyes does not make us less liable for the crime being perpetrated.

And I think that these kids have the right to the education on something so very important.
Those pictures are horrible. They are abominable. But they are the truth of what happens in an abortion.
If you don’t like the heat, stay out of the kitchen!!!

 

[maggiemay2u]

I find it incredible that so many that are revulsed at the thought of their children seeing horror of abortion, are the same ones who so staunchly defend the right of children to procure them.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Why not let’'s cut to the chase. Bottom line,** What laws did these protesters violate??** From what I can determine**, NONE. **This is the crux of the entire discussion.