Birth control and non-Catholics

[Priscilla_Ann]

No… I don’t disagree with the Church’s teaching what I meant by AMEN was that I agreed with what Syele said in the post I quoted… and I am also allergic to latex so barrier methods would be out for me to if I was so inclined… I actually got rushed from a dentist to the ER because of my allergy… but by no means do I think barrier methods are acceptable as it interferes with the unitive aspect of the marital embrace.

BlestOne:

Your last sentence regarding “the unitive aspect of the marital embrace” makes no sense whatsoever. My husband and I have been happily and faithfully married for 25 years. The “unitive aspect of the marital embrace” is something we have valued for 25 years; it did not hinge on whether we used contraception or not (and we’ve done both); nor did vasectomy or hysterectomy have any affect on it. The unitive aspect of the marital embrace is present because of the love, trust, respect and commitment we have to each other. Perhaps you are not old enough or wise enough to understand that yet.

 

[BlestOne]

BlestOne:

Your last sentence regarding “the unitive aspect of the marital embrace” makes no sense whatsoever. My husband and I have been happily and faithfully married for 25 years. The “unitive aspect of the marital embrace” is something we have valued for 25 years; it did not hinge on whether we used contraception or not (and we’ve done both); nor did vasectomy or hysterectomy have any affect on it. The unitive aspect of the marital embrace is present because of the love, trust, respect and commitment we have to each other. Perhaps you are not old enough or wise enough to understand that yet.

oh Bless you for thinking I am a youngun! Actually I am 45… and I do believe that barriers are more than physical… I believe that the bond that exists between a man and a woman who trust in God to decide their family size is such a strong bond, much stronger than a couple who fears a contraceptive mishap or relies on the false God of modern pharmaceuticals. I am not denying you have a good and strong marriage… and that is a blessing, but oh the blessings that come with mutual trust in God!!! Tell me something… how would you have felt if you were using contraceptives and found yourself pregnant? Even today I would fall to my knees and thank God if I found out I was… and I would be thrilled to tell my dh about it because I know he would be just as happy.

 

[SIA]

oh Bless you for thinking I am a youngun! Actually I am 45… and I do believe that barriers are more than physical… I believe that the bond that exists between a man and a woman who trust in God to decide their family size is such a strong bond, much stronger than a couple who fears a contraceptive mishap or relies on the false God of modern pharmaceuticals. I am not denying you have a good and strong marriage… and that is a blessing, but oh the blessings that come with mutual trust in God!!! Tell me something… how would you have felt if you were using contraceptives and found yourself pregnant? Even today I would fall to my knees and thank God if I found out I was… and I would be thrilled to tell my dh about it because I know he would be just as happy.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe God is counting on a person having the good sense to realize that they have enough children and should not bring more into the world?

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

oh Bless you for thinking I am a youngun! Actually I am 45… and I do believe that barriers are more than physical… I believe that the bond that exists between a man and a woman who trust in God to decide their family size is such a strong bond, much stronger than a couple who fears a contraceptive mishap or relies on the false God of modern pharmaceuticals. I am not denying you have a good and strong marriage… and that is a blessing, but oh the blessings that come with mutual trust in God!!! Tell me something… how would you have felt if you were using contraceptives and found yourself pregnant? Even today I would fall to my knees and thank God if I found out I was… and I would be thrilled to tell my dh about it because I know he would be just as happy.

I am 50, so you are still a youngun! Forgive me if my response seemed harsh.

If we had faced an unexpected pregnancy, my husband and I would have accepted that as God’s will and worked through it with my doctors. Due to a health condition, I have been on particular medication since I was 31 and was advised by my doctor not to become pregnant while taking that medication as it can cause birth defects. We were fortunate to already have a son who has brought much joy to our lives.

The point is that husband and wife, with prayer, make the decision together. That is part of the “unitive aspect of the marital embrace”…it’s not just about making babies.

 

[BlestOne]

I am 50, so you are still a youngun! Forgive me if my response seemed harsh.

If we had faced an unexpected pregnancy, my husband and I would have accepted that as God’s will and worked through it with my doctors. Due to a health condition, I have been on particular medication since I was 31 and was advised by my doctor not to become pregnant while taking that medication as it can cause birth defects. We were fortunate to already have a son who has brought much joy to our lives.

The point is that husband and wife, with prayer, make the decision together. That is part of the “unitive aspect of the marital embrace”…it’s not just about making babies.

I didn’t take your post as harsh… no worries! I am sorry for your health problems and rejoice with you about your son. I agree that praying together is the key to a successful marriage and I don’t believe marriage is all about making babies… my first concern in my marriage is helping my husband get to heaven… and then bringing new souls to Christ… I was blest with 3 living children and I also rejoice in the many saints I gave to heaven… I have lost 4 babies to miscarriage and while I would have loved to raise them, Gods will was for them to be with him… To me the unitive aspect of the marital embrace includes trusting God as well as trusting and loving your spouse. My priest sat me down before my wedding and told me that every time my husband and I make love, we are renewing our covenant promise we made when we got married…in essence, we are renewing our vows. I totally agree with him and I also believe that everytime we make love we are also telling God that we trust in Him too…

 

[Sepharad]

Did you ever stop to think that maybe God is counting on a person having the good sense to realize that they have enough children and should not bring more into the world?

Let me tell you a story, a true story, about me.

My mother (obm) gave birth to my sister when she was in her early 20s, a few years after she was married. Due to the Rh sensitivity problem she had, her dr told her not to have anymore children (they had no cure for it back then, no Rhogam shot, nothing.) She tried not to get pregnant again, but “accidentally” had me 12 years later.

(Note: for those who are not familiar with the Rh situation, see this: highrisk.org/alphabet/r/ )

Because her dr told her that the baby (me) might well be stillborn, or at best severely anemic or jaundiced, she tried to get a “therapeutic” abortion with me (this was in the 1950s, long before Roe v Wade.) No dr would risk his license back then to do it, since the danger was to me, not to her (therapeutic abortions back then were only available if the pregnancy would endanger the life or health of the woman.)

And so, she spent her entire pregnancy with me, not knowing if I’d be dead, retarded, whatever.

As it turned out, I was fine, except for a few days in an incubator due to HOW I came out (face first!–her dr joked that I wanted to see where I was going)

I was only the second baby her dr delivered that day…a Friday the 13th…and the other one was stillborn… due to Rh incompatibility. You can just imagine what was on his mind when he came in to deliver me.

 

[Sepharad]

And by the way, to any pro-aborts who might be reading this…

the Rh sensitivity problem is PROOF that the unborn baby is not a part of the mother, as pro-aborts like to claim…because the whole reason the Rh problem even arises* is because the unborn child has a separate blood type and separate blood system from that of the mother.*

If the unborn child were truly just a part of the mother’s body, it would share the same blood type and blood system every time, but it doesn’t.

 

[kalt]

Most people trust their doctors.

Most people trust that their doctors have very specific education that may make them a good doctor.

Their is no longer blind trust in doctors. That’s a thing from our grandparents’ generation.

Today, people take a very healthy skepticism with them to every doctor’s appointment. .

 

[Sepharad]

Most people trust that their doctors have very specific education that may make them a good doctor.

Their is no longer blind trust in doctors. That’s a thing from our grandparents’ generation.

Today, people take a very healthy skepticism with them to every doctor’s appointment. .

My mom (obm) did blindly trust doctors. Because of that trust, she died a few months ago, partly from a condition called ‘polypharmacy’, which means she was on too many different prescription drugs, and they worked together to take their final toll. This happens to the elderly a lot.

Over the years I’ve had doctors write me prescriptions often, and I usually put them in the circular file when I got home. I’m still here, healthier than ever, ever since (8 yrs ago) I decided to totally revamp my lifestyle re: exercise and proper diet.

The only thing I’ve ever taken prescription drugs for (short term) was antibiotics for strep throat a couple of times, that I can recall.

So really (trying to bring this back on topic), my real reason for not using artificial birth control is because of my distrust of prescription drugs. I look at birth control the same way I look at other conditions pertaining to the body: if I can handle it naturally, I’ll go that route if at all possible.

 

[kalt]

The ‘misinformation’ I picked up was listed on the Catholic family portion of this forum, discussing the various methods and failures thereof. The palpation of the vulva was mentioned, along with wiggling the cervix and checking the cervical mucus, as the vulva (apparently) becomes softer during (?before?) ovulation–I have no idea, as I never used or advised using any of these techniques–but if you check that portion of the forum, you will find all of this discussed in detail, together with all the children conceived using these techniques. that’s where I learned about all of this. There are a number of highly effective barrier techniques that are more reliable than any of this–the diaphragm, the sponge, to name two.

Yep, I’m an MD, in good standing, practicing, with licenses in 4 states. Sorry.

LOL. I know what you meant, but you look like you’re apologizing for being licensed in 4 states.

I echo the sentiment. You don’t sound much like a doctor to me.

No doctor I know would post medical opinions on a religion forum about a BC method she knows nothing about.

Real doctors go crazy when their patients visit web sites and then debate diagnoses with their doctors, as if a reading a web site is equivalent to a degree in medicine and years of experience.

And here you are, doing just that.

You sound much more like a patient than a doctor.

Also, it seems unethical and unprofessional for one doctor to tell another doctor’s patient that the treatment plan they’ve come up with together is no good, when that opinion hasn’t been requested, isn’t in a clinical setting, and is based on info gathered from a web site.

Most of us stopped playing doctor when we reached kindergarten.

 

[Sepharad]

Real doctors go crazy when their patients visit web sites and then debate diagnoses with their doctors, as if a reading a web site is equivalent to a degree in medicine and years of experience.

(Sorry for snipping the rest of your post, btw I agreed with it 100%!)

My dr (who I settled on after much research) actually has no problem with me consulting the internet about medical diagnoses, as long as I use reputable sites such as Johns Hopkins, the Mayo Clinic and the like. I often bring in to him things I’ve read, and he appreciates it! My other dr also was like that, she regarded me as a very well-informed patient, and said to me that she wished more of her patients took that kind of time to be more concerned over their health.

I have found that the kinds of dr’s who get annoyed when the patient takes a pro-active interest in their health are the same ones who think MD stands for “minor deity”.

 

[Jennifer_J]

The ‘misinformation’ I picked up was listed on the Catholic family portion of this forum, discussing the various methods and failures thereof. The palpation of the vulva was mentioned, along with wiggling the cervix and checking the cervical mucus, as the vulva (apparently) becomes softer during (?before?) ovulation–I have no idea, as I never used or advised using any of these techniques–but if you check that portion of the forum, you will find all of this discussed in detail, together with all the children conceived using these techniques. that’s where I learned about all of this. There are a number of highly effective barrier techniques that are more reliable than any of this–the diaphragm, the sponge, to name two.

Yep, I’m an MD, in good standing, practicing, with licenses in 4 states. Sorry.

I think I’ve found your error. Mucous methods often talk about paying attention to the feelings AT the vulva–wet, dry, slippery. You’re really observing the mucous, not the vulva. Just an FYI.

Also, barrier methods are notoriously unreliable–even used together. My aunt Debbie was conceived by my diabetic grandmother while using both condoms and a diaphram. She had been advised to not have anymore children because my aunt Roxanne had been stillborn a year or so earlier due to my grandmother’s diabetes. Yes, anecdotal, however, the rates of failure for barrier methods are far worse than those for NFP–and “failure” for NFP is hard to decipher as those who use NFP may spontaneously decide to forgo the rules any given month or their need to not get pregnant may not be serious. There are many women with serious reasons to avoid pregnancy who have quite succesfully used NFP for decades without any surprise blessings. There are conservative rules you can follow for such situations.

If you are truly a physician, I think you do your patients a huge disservice to be so ignorant about NFP and so resistant to even learn anything basic about the methods. How can you know it doesn’t work or won’t work or whatever, if you don’t even know the basics?

Btw, our local university’s nursing program has an entire section on NFP basics–I happen to know the Professor. She has told me it’s amazing that most of these young women don’t know the first thing about their cycles and how their body works each month (mostly because they are all on the PILL). That’s the best part about NFP, the knowledge of how our body should be working and then if something isn’t working properly, being able to take that info to a knowledgeable doctor who can help you get better. I, personally, find it amazing each and every month, that I can tell what my body is doing–that the changes are there, that I am fearfully and wonderfully made by God!! Far from disgust at my body, I am amazed.

 

[BlestOne]

Did you ever stop to think that maybe God is counting on a person having the good sense to realize that they have enough children and should not bring more into the world?

Wow that was hurtful and insensitive!

 

[NeedImprovement]

Did you ever stop to think that maybe God is counting on a person having the good sense to realize that they have enough children and should not bring more into the world?

You mean like, “Be unfruitful and don’t multiply?”

 

[NeedImprovement]

Did you ever stop to think that maybe God is counting on a person having the good sense to realize that they have enough children and should not bring more into the world?

…

Catechism of the Catholic Church :

2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).

They look a little similar when they’re put beside each other, but “method” of regulation remains a point of contention.

 

[1234]

I don’t know about Pope Benedict XVI. But concerning bishops, at least here in Canada, you make a valid point. Not only did/do a significant number not speak out on abortion, but they participated in this “Winnipeg Statement”, which really was a scholar’s lesson in prevarication.

My brother is a doctor; so I do respect doctors, - especially the philanthropists, but the first-hand experiences of my family with certain of that profession has not always been rosy (could pm you a couple of examples if you wish, so as not to stray too far off the thread subject). It wasn’t so much a case of lack of skill as it was extremely sick demeanor - not at all in harmony with the Hippocratic Oath.

This Winnipeg Statement contributed to what we have today in Canada which is no abortion law. Abortion, which originally we were told was only for those women whose “health” depended on it is anything but today. Canada aborts more than 2,000 unborn children per week. 22% of all pregnancies in the US end in abortion. Those figures should seem at least a little staggering - even to proponents of abortion. Here,in the province of Quebec, a doctor told me that the province has to bring in betwenn 50,000 and 100,000 immigrants each year just to keep the population from declining.

Then bit by bit, the radical non-mainstream influenced government into passing all sorts of bills and making laws to “protect” them (I don’t know…?? from what). These in turn are used to make the public think a certain way.

The memorial service for 911 was a good example. In the US near ground zero, Jesus’ name was mentioned by the appropriate ministers at the joint -religious memorial service.

In our nation’s capital, Ottawa, at our memorial service they were afraid to “offend” non-Christians so Jesus’ name wasn’t mentioned in prayer by Christian ministers. If I recall correctly, I don’t even know if they mentioned God’s name (so what…? they wouldn’t offend the atheists? For crying out loud - it’s a ***prayer ***service! How many atheists would be attending?)

My memory is a little foggy now but I believe at that service the only minister who had the good sense (more likely the intestinal fortitude) to mention God’s name was a Rabbi.

That memorial service was a clear indicator that something is wrong. In Canada you have to be “politically correct”. We now promote an inversion of moral values. Freedom of speech is only a concept here. If you dare to speak out against abortion, you’re an intolerant, a chavinist. If you speak out against gay marriage you’re a hate monger. The idea seems to be that you mustn’t offend anybody except those with good sound moral values…by telling them to shut up or they’ll be charged with a hate crime.
The majority of Canadian society is, if not paralyzed, then at least partially stifled by political correctness.

A Franciscan friend of mine told me this in jest, but I wonder if we’re not too far away from the day. He said:

Here in Canada, because we must be so politically correct, we aren’t even allowed to say someone is dead anymore; we have to say they are "metabolically challenged".

Yes, my kids are very PC and it’s tiresome, even if I agree with them.

The best ways to prevent abortion is thru sex education and free or virtually free contraception. this has been proven time and time again, most recently with teh failure of Bush’s ‘abstinence only’ programs–which produced unintended pregnanciesin the same incidence as in the general population, ie. the program failed.

Scandinavia is the best example and they have the best statistics. People take in sex ed with their mother’s milk and have widely available contraception, all forms. There is wide acceptance of illegitimacy, maternity and paternity leave and free or low cost high quality day care. Result: few abortions. More babies. Higher birth rate than Italy and Spain, those 'Catholic" countries. Big recent article in the New York Times Sunday Magazine on the decline in birth rate in Europe targeted especially Italy. Why is the birth rate so low? It’s not contraception, nor abortion. It’s that the society does not support the family. High cost of housing, few jobs. Everyone stays at home 'til they’re forty. Then they marry, have one child. No day care. Mom supposed to stay at home full-time. Grandparents too old to help out. Low income as both parents have to work to survive. Result: one child at most. Countries who support the family like Scandinavia have higher birth rates. Many in these countries don’t bother to marry, but are stable family units–I don’t know if this alters the statistics.

Immigrants from Eastern Europe and Russia don’t use contraception as it wasn’t available back home, was expensive or unreliable-condoms broke. No housing. No jobs–why they emigrated. So they aborted.

Brazil and Mexico legalized abortion to decrease the deaths of women from illegal abortion–often women with small children at home. If they made contraception cheap or free and widely available, there would be less abortion.

This is the ironic result of Humanae Vitae-- forbid contraception and you have thrown gasoline on the fires of abortion.

 

[1234]

oh Bless you for thinking I am a youngun! Actually I am 45… and I do believe that barriers are more than physical… I believe that the bond that exists between a man and a woman who trust in God to decide their family size is such a strong bond, much stronger than a couple who fears a contraceptive mishap or relies on the false God of modern pharmaceuticals. I am not denying you have a good and strong marriage… and that is a blessing, but oh the blessings that come with mutual trust in God!!! Tell me something… how would you have felt if you were using contraceptives and found yourself pregnant? Even today I would fall to my knees and thank God if I found out I was… and I would be thrilled to tell my dh about it because I know he would be just as happy.

That "unitive aspect of the physical embrace’ --or whatever-- boils down to the absolute fear of preganncy that the vast majority of women have felt over the millenia as long as intercourse and pregnancy were found to be related.

The vast majority of women in the history of the world have experienced intercourse as rape; they had no control whatsoever over intercourse, with whom, when or why. Many were beaten or starved during pregnancy, died during childbirth or had horrendous complications–recto-vaginal fistulas, for example. Many had more children than they could possibly take care of or wanted. Many abandoned them or deliberately starved them. “Baby farms” into the early 20th c. and orphanages were common places to drop them off–most recently in Romania, where contraception and abortion were prohibited, and orphanages bulged with unwanted, irreversibly damaged children.

Why do you think women now outlive men? The major reason is that they now have control over their child-bearing. Frequent pregnancy and child-bearing has always been a major killer of women, now still continuing in Afghanistan.

So much for the power of the ‘unitive aspect of the physical embrace.’

 

[1234]

You either misunderstood the posting or something…got the link or can you find it?? because I know a lot about each of the types of NFP and not a single one has anything to do with checking the vulva…the cervix check is for it’s position and whether it is open or closed–nothing more or less. I also mostly hang out in the family forum and the parenting forum here and have NEVER heard of this…looking for further clarification from you, because you seem to be very confused and wrong about NFP…

Search under ‘vulva’. Checking the vulvar secretions (I guess) is part of the Billings method. I found a lot of posts under “Problems with Billings method”, “Questions about Billings method” and “Billings method”. These weren’t even my posts which were much earlier. All of these are very recent posts, since June '08.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Search under ‘vulva’. Checking the vulvar secretions (I guess) is part of the Billings method. I found a lot of posts under “Problems with Billings method”, “Questions about Billings method” and “Billings method”. These weren’t even my posts which were much earlier. All of these are very recent posts, since June '08.

I’ll repeat again, as you have clearly not read anything I’ve posted. This has to do with checking the mucous (or the sensations of wetness/dryness) that is found at the vulva–after it exits the vagina. YOU ARE MISTAKEN that any woman has to palpatate her vulva to check for fertility. It’s sad that a medical doc is so misinformed and has not idea about physiology…

 

[Jennifer_J]

That "unitive aspect of the physical embrace’ --or whatever-- boils down to the absolute fear of preganncy that the vast majority of women have felt over the millenia as long as intercourse and pregnancy were found to be related.

The vast majority of women in the history of the world have experienced intercourse as rape; they had no control whatsoever over intercourse, with whom, when or why. Many were beaten or starved during pregnancy, died during childbirth or had horrendous complications–recto-vaginal fistulas, for example. Many had more children than they could possibly take care of or wanted. Many abandoned them or deliberately starved them. “Baby farms” into the early 20th c. and orphanages were common places to drop them off–most recently in Romania, where contraception and abortion were prohibited, and orphanages bulged with unwanted, irreversibly damaged children.

Why do you think women now outlive men? The major reason is that they now have control over their child-bearing. Frequent pregnancy and child-bearing has always been a major killer of women, now still continuing in Afghanistan.

So much for the power of the ‘unitive aspect of the physical embrace.’

Source for your claims that the “vast majority of women” have experienced sex as rape over the centuries!!