Birth control dissenter

[gardenswithkids]

…Here is part of my philosophy: I agree that the unitive and procreative aspects are of equal importance. However, I also believe that each can be emphasized differently in different seasons of a marriage. …

Marriage, like all parts of life, does seem to go through different seasons.

Menopause is sometimes called “the change of life”–it is when a woman’s fertility naturally diminishes, declines, then finally ends. I’m entering that stage of my life. I used to be “super fertile”. For a time I feared my fertilty, rather than respecting and appreciating it. Years ago it took a miscarriage to help correct some of our attitude regarding my fertility. I recently had a second miscarriage. I still show signs of fertility, I still cycle, and as of a few months ago I could still get pregnant–but I may not be able to have any more children. I simply don’t know. Honestly, back when we were struggling with the Church teachings, I thought that menopause would be a welcome relief. I’m not so sure now.

Women do enter times when fertility naturally declines–that’s what NFP is based on. Eventually women reach a time when we can’t have more babies–the season of our marriage changes.

Sterilization seems to pre-maturely force marriage into another season, like an unnatural frost in the summer. Maybe while you’re up to your eyeballs with diapers and laundry it doesn’t seem so bad. But I sense that you won’t always feel that way once the true autumn of your life begins.

 

[manualman]

manualman… it is obvious to me that your wife didn’t ever breastfeed for very long by this. For women who breastfeed their children for a year or more, it can take an extremely long time for their cycles to resume. Signs can be confusing and all over the place during the time of breastfeeding amenorrhea. This causes many couples extreme difficulty in determining their fertility status. Marquette University has spent years working on a new method of NFP just to give couples facing this some relief. I am not willing to take the comfort, nutrition, and bonding of extended nursing away from my children in order to make my sex life easier. It is something they NEED, IMO.

Still working up that big long post… but I couldn’t let this stand unanswered. NFP is NOT easy for everyone, and for you to insist that it should be is elitist and intolerant.

Actually, my wife is breastfeeding DD#3 right now and has been for the last 18 months. She has no trouble practicing the Billing mucus observations at all. Maybe we are lucky, maybe it is just that we’ve never messed things up with hormone pills, maybe it is that she also abstains from cold medicines that interfere with mucus. In any case, its always been pretty clear when the fertility is coming back. So much for being obvious.

 

[basilisk]

Apologies, manualman. Your wife is lucky to have such a reliable mucus pattern even during breastfeeding. Most of us are not so lucky. The fits and starts of a body trying to return to cycling, but not able to get over the threshhold multiple times, and starting over again trying… can be very confusing and frustrating. It leads to days and even weeks of mucus that looks fertile, and as one is not ovulating, there is no thermal shift to help out.

My defensiveness was talking in that post…

 

[manualman]

No sweat, I get heated up on the subject sometimes too.

Part of our success has been how much experience she had in mucus observations BEFORE we got married (and it should be heavily encouraged in ALL catholic marriage prep programs). It isn’t just the presence of mucus that is important it is the consistancy and slipperyness that tells you when the peak has come. It’s something you really can’t learn in class and is hard to learn when periodic intercourse is, umm, muddying the observations. Once you know your body it gets to be a lot like riding a bike.

I liked your seasons of love image and wanted to note that God clearly agrees since he made woman with many years of life after fertility has ended. But his version seems to have longer seasons than you would like.

I think what some have been struggling to articulate is that the Church doesn’t condemn ABC ONLY because it severs the procreative aspect of married sex, but also because that severing intrinsicly damages the unitive aspect. I’m not so sure the teaching is that it ELIMINATES the unitive aspect, but it surely damages it. Even if you don’t perceive it, our bodies and they way they work are cleverly designed by God to be linked to our souls. Sex and fertility were meant to be linked by design and it is a peculiarly modern notion that “modifying the plumbing” would have no effect on the soul.

jwashu, The Church has been very clear that contraception is a moral issue, not a “d” disciplinary issue. Nobody ever claimed that eating meat on a Friday was “inherently” immoral. It was only wrong 60 years ago because it would have been disobedient. The sin involved in contraception in Church teaching is not primarily one of disobedience, it is of doing violence to God’s plan for human sexuality.

BTW, it IS good to have a civil discussion on the matter. Civil doesn’t have to mean blurring the lines of teaching, just avoiding name calling and anger.

 

[Jennifer_J]

After years of study (and reading all the stuff) I have to say I’m in agreement. In fact I have felt the need to post almost this exact same note. I had not because I have been trying to discern whether the push to post something like this was from me or from the Holy Spirit. (Yes I said the Holy Spirit, the Church has changed little “d” teachings in the past and I believe will change this one as well). The whole basis of this teaching as coming from the story of Onan is a misinterpretation IMHO and more the result of the aesthetic movement in the early Church which, if you look at the NT Canon, was downplayed by the Catholic Church since deciding on our Canon. (if it wasn’t why not include the Acts of Peter? we carry the story of his crucifiction in tradition but forgot the rest… why?!?)

Your point about the number of marriages on the rocks because of this is a very strong point. I know most Catholic’s just completely ignore this teaching, a few seems to be able to handle it fantastically but those in the middle are struggling and the resulting struggle isn’t a closer relationship with God or their community of Faith or even their family! It’s usually the disruption of all three…

About a year ago I took an oath that I accept the teachings of the Church and I do, but I don’t have to agree and I believe that perhaps I should pray and work to point out that this teaching may, in fact, be in error.

I would also disagree that God is not present in the renewing of the Marriage Covenant if contraception is used. To make that that leap you must be willing to say that almost every married couple in every of Christian faith have no understanding of Christian marriage and of the NT. I’m sorry but that assumption is incorrect. Many people using contraception are very devout with loving and blessed marriages to the point that you can see God working in their lives.

Joe

The whole basis for no contraception is not just based on the Onan account. This has been consistant Church teaching over the centuries, the natural end of marriage and the marriage act is both unitive and procreative…they are tied up together in the way the act is designed. To deny one is to alter the act. Just because the majority of people are doing something, doesn’t make it morally right. One can easily see that marriages are damaged by contraception–see the divorce rate. And, no, NFP isn’t a magic wand that fixes marriages and it isn’t always easy.

 

[jacie]

Just one more thought - it helps to ponder how central sexual morality is to our faith. I know some people think it is way overemphasized and that God doesn’t really care so much about what we do in the bedroom, especially with our spouse. But look over the Old Testament and see how the chosen people were invincible when they honored God and obeyed Him. But what was it that always seemed to lead to their downfall? It was sexual immorality. Remeber the pagans sending their women across the battle lines at night to lie wilth the Jewish soldiers and become impregnated by them. When the Jews fell for this temptation, God wlthdrew His protection and they were defeated.

The bottom line is obedience. This world often forgets that it is a virtue, not a weakness. Try going to God with humility, setting aside our pride and being willing to accept what He teaches us. Nothing I or anyone else says here will persuade like God does. Ask Him to show you His truth, but be willing to accept it even if you don’t fully understand. Pick up your Bible, and pray and let it fall open to whatever passage He wants to show you. Then ponder upon it’s meaning and see how it pops up again and again during the next few days. Just a thought.

 

[babesinarms]

Can I just say, at this point, that I think this has been the most compassionate, polite, and calm thread about dissent on the birth control teaching that I have ever seen on this board? Thank you all so much. Honest discussion like this is what everyone needs, regardless of topic. Everyone has acted so ADULT… thank you! I don’t know if anyone’s mind is getting changed here, but I really think this thread could be very useful for others. The lack of venom, with the exception of Ceil-1 on the first page, is palpable, and very appreciated.

And now… off to massively fun things like folding laundry and closet organizing… for all those 5 kids of mine.

Can I just say that because of the manner in which this is being discussed as Basilisk points out above, I have, for one, been able to truly sit back and ponder upon all your posts. I have not disagreed with the Churches stance on this, but have never been able to reconcile it in my own life. Therefore, I have chosen to simply go with how I understand this to be in my life, for very similar reasons to Basilisk. The one difference here is that *our *choice was for dh to have the vasectomy - I had too much medical history with birthing that he/and we felt that the ‘little’ physical sacrifice he had to make would be a lot easier.

Let me say quite clearly that because of the manner in which this is being discussed, I have felt for the first time, the ability to really consider just what is being discussed. I can’t emphasize this enough. When you are in a different mindset in relation to these issues, it is sheer torture to have Church teachings thrown in your face, regardless of your circumstances. I know, intellectually at least, what the church teaches. But I need to have understanding and empathy in order for it to speak to my heart.

Well, Lordy, Lordy, Lordy…Because of all your honest approaches to this issue, I actually had what I now call ‘A Sarah moment’, a few days ago. It finally struck me that indeed NFP is not seen as a contraceptive tool. Although I believe joining any two people in the sacrament of marriage will bring up past issues, the use of NFP can very much allow for these ssues to be brought to the fore. I was of the 70’s bracket that was NOT taught about the spirituality of marriage (in a catholic school), but were taught about the biological elements of birth…BUT they got it wrong and that’s how I ended up having our third child. Prior to this, both dh and I ‘left it to the will of God’ so to speak, because we were at that age where having a family was a natural conclusion to being married. My ob/gyn, being one of this states most respected doctors and a very humble and beautiful christian, I simply took him at his word when he told us definitely ***not ***to have any more children for the sake of my life and that of any future babies. In the month that dh was supposed to have his vasectomy, difficulty ensued because of the doctor resigning. In the following month whilst trying to find someone else suitable, I fell pregnant with our third child. Without going into details, we nearly lost her. Instead of my ob/gyno going into anger, he supported us with the best help available and we made it through. He then helped dh get the vasectomy needed, along with a very grave warning to never get pregnant again. We accepted his opinion and went ahead. We are very appreciative of the miracle of life.

Fast forward to a few days ago and this thread. In the light of other things that dh and I have been constantly working through, in spiritual/relationship matters, it suddenly clicked with me how in fact NFP is indeed a spiritual tool for married couples. I indeed had to consider that if dh’s vasectomy was able to be reversed and I am in moving into the realm of menopause, and I always have been very fertile, the possibility of having another child would obviously be in the picture! This is when I had my ‘Sarah moment’ and fell on my bed giggling to myself at such absurdity of thought!!! But within the realms of possibility, I can honestly say how I realised that I liked to control my life and let God in only when I felt it seemed necessary to do so. Within the context of a relationship, the use of NFP opens the couple up to include a third party in the relationship. Its not only about my needs or my dh’s needs but what God needs from us. I just wanted to share how this has thrown a whole new light on the subject for us both. How can God possibly enter our lives to this extent if we choose to simply control His amount of (name removed by moderator)ut. Believe me, I understand from a rational point of view how against the grain this can appear for some. But as my dh pointed out, Moses had the same argument with God over leading His enslaved people out of Egypt, but he kept submitting his will to the will of God.

We have the revelation of the New Testament that brings with it the spirit of the law. Law on it’s own seems unfair, unjust and cruel. The Law of love that we are given is not about ten commandments, it has been written on our hearts instead, with the love of what Christ did for us. May all future postings concerning NFP be as filled with empathy and kindness as this one has. Thank you for all your honest replies.

 

[Good_Daughter]

May all future postings concerning NFP be as filled with empathy and kindness as this one has.

Beautifully said.

basilisk had me a little choked up earlier, then your post actually brought tears to my eyes! Maybe we should wrap up the thread here with a group hug (kidding ).

 

[Good_Daughter]

I am not exactly sure what you are looking for here, but the church teaches that contraception is wrong b/c it renders the act “unprocreative” in the eyes of the church…and each marital embrace must be unitve and procreative. That is it in a nutshell.

–Rico

Hi Rico S, hope you’re well.

Because the OP declared herself a dissenter, I was asking if she could articulate, in her own words, the reasons behind Catholic teaching on contraception. My point was simply that it’s good to make sure you truly understand something before disagreeing.

Your “nutshell” works for me, as long as it’s made clear that, according to Catholic teaching, unity flows from procreation, therefore contracepted sex is rendered both “unprocreative” and “ununitive”. Also, you leave out the “love” parts which I really miss!

 

[Consecrated]

How can God possibly enter our lives to this extent if we choose to simply control His amount of (name removed by moderator)ut.

and this sums it up folks! thank you for sharing, babesinarms and OP, and all other posters who laid their struggles down for us to see.

 

[Good_Daughter]

basilisk, throughout this thread, I’ve noticed a couple places where you may be at odds with Catholic teaching on contraception. I’ll share what I’ve observed, and you can let me know what you think.

In your OP, you cite a Lambeth Conference document that makes mention of “a morally sound reason for avoiding complete abstinence”. I don’t think you’ll find this concept in Catholic teaching, but the assumption that it exists may be the lens through which you are viewing the entire birth control issue. Is this “morally sound reason” a manmade idea? It certainly works to justify contraceptive use, but by what authority does the Lambeth Conference get to decide that such a thing exists?

I suspect that you might use the terms “unity” and “pleasure” almost interchangably in discussing sexual relations. Please consider the idea that sex, properly ordered, is procreative and unitive while pleasure is not an end in and of itself but a by-product of sexual union (a wonderful by-product).

We have sex, as Dr. Janet Smith says, for “babies and bonding”. When we start seeking pleasure for the sake of pleasure, we fall into lust.

I hope that wasn’t too blunt, feel free to correct me if my observations have been inaccurate.

 

[basilisk]

I suspect that you might use the terms “unity” and “pleasure” almost interchangably in discussing sexual relations. Please consider the idea that sex, properly ordered, is procreative and unitive while pleasure is not an end in and of itself but a by-product of sexual union (a wonderful by-product).

Your assumption is wrong on this one. That is not what I am doing. It is perfectly possible to have very physically pleasurable sex where no spiritual or emotional unity exists. Unity is not a product of sex, it is a quality in the relationship that is supported and nurtured by the bonding nature of lovemaking.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Your assumption is wrong on this one. That is not what I am doing. It is perfectly possible to have very physically pleasurable sex where no spiritual or emotional unity exists. Unity is not a product of sex, it is a quality in the relationship that is supported and nurtured by the bonding nature of lovemaking.

I’m not agreeing that this is what you are doing, just making a general statement about what you said…

Just because someone is after sex just for pleasure, doesn’t mean that no unity exists or is created. In fact, sharing in this intimate way DOES create a unity of sorts. The hormones released during relations lead to that bonding. It’s but one reason that relations should be reserved for marraige–a bond is created and broken and created and broken in our “hook up” culture. This is damaging, both physically and psycologically. So I would say that unity IS a product of sex and one reason that the Church teaches what she does about it’s sacredness.

 

[savienu]

I have read this whole thread with great interest. What a wonderful discussion! I did just want to reiterate what a few posters have said- there is a difference between “I struggle with this Church teaching, and sometimes (or often) fall” and “I dissent from this teaching.” I struggle with the Church’s teachings on homosexuality (I used to identify as bisexual, before coming home), but, even when I fall, I don’t dissent from those teachings. I know the activity is gravely sinful, even if I don’t understand or follow those teachings all the times perfectly.
Our Church is a wonderful Mother- forgiveness is always readily available when we fall. But in order to be forgiven, we must have a contrite heart and a firm purpose of amendment. We can’t continue to dissent and expect that everything will be fine.
Also, this is an infallible teaching of the Magisterium. The Church not only won’t change it, she can’t.
Have you looked at/studied John Paul II’s Theology of the Body, or read his “Love and Responsibility”? Those might help you understand more the “why” of this teaching. I know it did for me.

 

[basilisk]

JenJ, I should have said “not necessarily.” Your point is right, of course.

 

[babesinarms]

Just to let you know, I am not ignoring the questions y’all have posed to me. I am just short on time with family stuff. And the next post will probably be a long and involved one, so I have to wait until I have a chunk of time.

I am coming back, I promise…

Basilisk,

I do apologize if my post wound things up here; that certainly wasn’t my intention. It was because of your openness to create this thread that I was able to really consider what the church does teach on this, perhaps for the first time, not having it taught properly to me at all. But I certainly never had the intention of it concluding on my understanding of it. I have been looking forward to that long post of yours (as stated above). I do hope you post again if you want to. Sorry

 

[timotheos]

This is a great thread.

When I struggled with this teaching early in my reversion, I did not seek to challenge it, but instead looked inward for my reasons for wanting to do so.

Bottom line, I did not like what I saw.

I discovered that my desire to continue contracepting with my wife was based on my whole learned, cynical, corrupted concept of womanhood, manhood, relationships, marriage and family.

In other words, the problem was not the Church or NFP. The problem was me. I continue to let the Church guide me out of this mess. It’s been over ten years, and I’m not there yet.

-Tim

 

[mpi]

basilisk, throughout this thread, I’ve noticed a couple places where you may be at odds with Catholic teaching on contraception. I’ll share what I’ve observed, and you can let me know what you think.

In your OP, you cite a Lambeth Conference document that makes mention of “a morally sound reason for avoiding complete abstinence”. I don’t think you’ll find this concept in Catholic teaching, but the assumption that it exists may be the lens through which you are viewing the entire birth control issue. Is this “morally sound reason” a manmade idea? It certainly works to justify contraceptive use, but by what authority does the Lambeth Conference get to decide that such a thing exists?

I suspect that you might use the terms “unity” and “pleasure” almost interchangably in discussing sexual relations. Please consider the idea that sex, properly ordered, is procreative and unitive while pleasure is not an end in and of itself but a by-product of sexual union (a wonderful by-product).

We have sex, as Dr. Janet Smith says, for “babies and bonding”. When we start seeking pleasure for the sake of pleasure, we fall into lust.

I hope that wasn’t too blunt, feel free to correct me if my observations have been inaccurate.

basilisk is right. Maybe you should read what the CCC says about this. It does say that a serious reason is required to use NFP to avoid pregnancy.

 

[Salonika]

I’m glad I overcame my reluctance to read this thread as if I had not done so I would missed one of the most interesting threads ever. My reluctance was due to expecting there to be masses of flaming and putting down. Instead I found an intelligent and caring discussion of a very difficult issue for a number of people.

While the thread may not change people’s minds on the issue I think all posters and readers people will have a better understanding of why they hold the view they do and of the reasons why people hold differing views from theirs.

 

[Cathhsmom]

I have just finished reading all of the posts in this thread. I have to agree with others that for the most part it has been very respectful. I would like to share my experiences with BCPs and NFP.

I am a Catholic convert. When my dh and I went to Precana class, there was a young doctor and his wife who gave a talk on NFP. I was impressed that a medical doctor used it and it was working for them. I was on BCP at the time. This was prior to becoming Catholic. 2 years later, I became Catholic and decided to stop the BCPs at the same time. I just had this feeling that I should not be on them anymore. No one in the RCIA class even talked about this, but it may have been that talk in the back of my mind.

We used C’s until I went 100 days without a cycle and thought for sure that I was pregnant. It turned out that I wasn’t, but it softened my dh’s heart to having a child. We were blessed with our 1st child a year and a half later. I got pregnant again the month after I started our oldest on solid foods (bfing). After that, I made sure to delay solids! My 3rd child was born when my oldest was 3 1/2. After that is when we finally took a NFP class. We were blessed to have a church that gave a NFP class every 2 months.

So, that started our adventure with NFP. I am so thankful to NFP. My last 2 pregnancies where when I knew that we could get pregnant and both said yes to the possibility. I miscarried my 4th child at 10 weeks, but due in part to the charting of NFP, the doctors were able to figure out that I have PCOS which affects your hormone balance. The doctors wanted to put me on BCPs, but knowing the Catholic position on them, I researched and found an alternative treatment. Because of that, I have my 4th child her on Earth. I was able to take the medicine that evened out my cycles and enabled me to keep the pregnancy going long enough for the placenta to take over the hormone production role.

This may not change anyone’s mind, but I had to share that it is not just “Catholic birth control”, but can be useful in detecting problems with the woman’s health. Thanks to this I now have 28 - 30 day cycles instead of 35 - 45+ days.