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agapewolf
Guest
how sad that a paraplegic isn’t “real”
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flyingfish
Guest
Oh, of course. I wouldn’t expect a man to stay with me if I became fully paralyzed either. Be a supportive friend? Sure. But I’m realistic about what that kind of injury does to a relationship. It would take a rare person to make it work I think.
Well, when a person can’t do most things that a normal individual can, yeah, sorry to say but it’s true. It is very sad, but there is no way to get around it. Fully paralyzed is fully paralyzed.
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agapewolf
Guest
This is one of the most absolutely heinous ideas… a human person is a human person with equal dignity and just as “real” as you or me.
It is absolutely not true that a paraplegic isn’t “real”.
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flyingfish
Guest
You’re twisting my words. I said “real husband”. A husband who can fully function (including sex, traveling, being strong and independent). Someone who’s fully paralyzed can’t do that, and I’d want to be with a man who can.
Maybe in some ideal world a spouse would stay, but I honestly doubt that most people wouldn’t move on in terms of relationship. They’d still be friends and help out the paralyzed spouse, but it’s just unrealistic to expect the person not to find another romantic partner.
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agapewolf
Guest
no it is realistic…otherwise it wouldnt’ be God’s command. Don’t empty the cross of its power.
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flyingfish
Guest
In the context of Catholic theology God did not intend for there to be such a thing as paralysis, we brought that into the world through Original Sin.
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agapewolf
Guest
and Jesus came after all of that…again, do not empty the cross of its power.
It is realistic. It happens.
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PassingThru
Guest
Sorry, but as a stats person, this kind of logic makes my head hurt. Lets examine with with a similar scenario, same logic.I pray that this is true, as the act of taking birth control is intrinsically evil.
On the contrary. Abstinence, is a true act of charity and done with Love, builds marriages. There are many saints who lived chaste marriages and this act of true love for eachother is well-rewarded. Simple look to the statistics. Couple who marry currently have a 50% success rate. Those who practice NFP and attend Mass faithfully have a 95-99% success ratem depending on the poll.
-from Catholiceducation.org: "while the divorce rate in the United States hovers around 50 percent during the first five years of marriage, those who use Natural Family Planning have a divorce rate of about 0.6 percent according to the Couple to Couple League, and 2-5 percent according to research conducted by California State University, attesting to the strong covenant love shared by these couples.
“I did a study at the local university. Turns out, over 99% of them took the SAT. Looks like we just need to make sure that high school kids take the SAT, and they will do great in college!”
NFP does not make a happy marriage. NFP users, by a huge majority, are dedicated, loving, steadfast in their faith, and incredibly family focused. You have the logic backwards. It is important to understand why this distinction is drawn.
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Vincent1984
Guest
Is it worth wondering what sort of “birth defects” are caused, and how likely they are?
Many non-Catholic doctors pressure women over 40 not to have children, or pressure those who are pregnant to have an abortion, because of the ‘risk’ of Down’s Syndrome. But the chance of it happening is very small, and children with Down’s Syndrome are no less children of God. Could you get a more ethical OB-GYN who would give you the full picture, rather than just telling you to go on the pill as a sort of default option to keep them away from lawsuits?
Don’t forget, also, that many forms of “contraception” are abortifacient - i.e. they don’t just stop you from having a baby, but they kill any children who are conceived.
Many non-Catholic doctors pressure women over 40 not to have children, or pressure those who are pregnant to have an abortion, because of the ‘risk’ of Down’s Syndrome. But the chance of it happening is very small, and children with Down’s Syndrome are no less children of God. Could you get a more ethical OB-GYN who would give you the full picture, rather than just telling you to go on the pill as a sort of default option to keep them away from lawsuits?
Don’t forget, also, that many forms of “contraception” are abortifacient - i.e. they don’t just stop you from having a baby, but they kill any children who are conceived.
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ac_claire
Guest
Right, it does happen. AND if you do find a priest who will say the words you want to hear, that it’s ok to do x, y or z sinful thing, etc., then you’d still be fooling yourself. It’s not a real permission, the Church can never give a “dispensation” allowing an intrinsic evil to happen.
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CatofAlexandria
Guest
It’s not really a “similar scenario, same logic.” In the example you’ve given, the SAT is a requirement for college. Nearly college students have taken the SAT, therefore, nearly all top college students will have taken the SAT. So the correlation/causation mistake here is in looking to the smaller sub-category among two related categories. However, what you’re trying to demonstrate is the existence of potential lurking factors (e.g., family focused, steadfast in faith, loving, and dedicated) that explain both the practice of NFP and the low rate of divorce, making them correlate with one another. It’s much more like the “ice cream sales are correlated with crime” example, where the lurking factor is summer.
The problem is that I’m not sure that the lurking factors with NFP and divorce are just purely lurking. Sure, love, faith, will-power, and focus on family both underlie the low divorce rate AND the practice of NFP (just like summer underlies both crime and ice cream sales). However, unlike “being summer,” love, faith, will-power, and family-focus are not binary, categorical qualities and they can all increase in degree. Many will argue that, because of this, “practicing NFP” and “having love, faith, will-power, and family focus” are factors that play on each other. Thus, a couple that has love, faith, will-power, and family focus will be more likely to practice NFP, but as that couple practices NFP, they will grow in love, will-power, family focus, and faith as it re-affirms those qualities. Since love, faith, will-power, and family focus underlie a low divorce rate, it seems (logically) that practicing NFP could have some causal force. Because of the lurking factors, of course, the statistics aren’t quite as impressive as you’d think, but, as I’ve said, the factors that lurk behind NFP might also increase with NFP, so there is some value to the statistics as well.
Edit: Just wanted to end with another analogy. Arguing that “couples who practice NFP have more self-control (which would be properly correlated with a lower divorce rate)” is similar to arguing that “people who go to church have more faith.” Sure, it takes some amount of faith to go to church initially, and (for the most part) only people with more faith will continue to go to church, but, it also goes in the other direction in church can reaffirm and increase the person’s faith. So, as as a person continues to go to church, they’ll grow in faith, but as they grow in faith they’re more likely to go to church. The factors share a complicated relationship.
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Consecrated
Guest
Actually, I will go further and say there is not a single person on earth who could “make it work”. Sacrificial love is only achieved with and through the help of God. And, if accepting of that help, there is not a single person placed in that situation who couldn’t “make it work”.
Faith, Hope, and Charity are not just empty ideas. Even if every person left on earth decided there is no One, True God, those would remain.
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flyingfish
Guest
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Jesus is God. If God could do something like be crucified for the sake of others, doesn’t mean that other humans should be expected to do the same.
The power of the cross lies in the forgiveness of our sins, how does Jesus having been crucified gives someone the strength to stay in a marriage with a paraplegic?
Are you really saying that people have become less sinful since the cross?
Mary_Gail_36
New member
I’ll love you as long as you are strong, virile and capable of making ME feel good. If you get sick, sorry you are on your own.
Those don’t seem to be the vows I took.
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kage_ar
Guest
So, where is the line where someone stops being real?
I need to know this.
Also, would you please give me a breakdown of what is “normal”?
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Luke_K
Guest
From my personal experience of once having that mindset, I’d have to say that those men have an immature and distorted view of sexual desire. They have conditioned themselves to expect a release of the desire once it arises, much like a spoiled child who always gets what he complains for and throws a tantrum when he doesn’t. They don’t have the experience of control over their sexual urges, so they don’t understand any other outcome of them than an orgasm.
Real men know that they can’t always get what they want. They accept that having a desire does not give them the right to fulfill it by any means. They are the master of their own will. :knight2:
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flyingfish
Guest
I didn’t say on your own, I mentioned specifically remaining friends and helping out.I’ll love you as long as you are strong, virile and capable of making ME feel good. If you get sick, sorry you are on your own.
Those don’t seem to be the vows I took.
I view marriage as a partnership, if one person ceases to be able to meet the desired requirements, it wouldn’t make sense to me for the marriage to continue.
Of course it depends on different people, and what they want out of a marriage. Sex would be a big thing for me. I don’t see a point of being married to a man I can’t have sex with, I’d just be his friend and find another man to be romantically involved with.
Maybe some people would be okay spending the rest of their lives without sex, but I doubt that’s most people.
Depends on what the person wants in a spouse, so it would vary from person to person.
Are you saying then you’d be okay married to a woman who can never have sex with you? If you are, I’d say that’s pretty rare.
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KostyaJMJ
Guest
It sounds like it would be more honest for you to simply solicit a prostitute.
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kage_ar
Guest
It sounds like you view marriage as a sexual encounter and nothing more. That is not a partnership.
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Rascalking
Guest
Flyingfish-I think marriage is more about two becoming one. It’s a partnership in some ways, but in some ways it’s a new body.
I agree with you that it’s important to be sexual with a spouse-I totally agree with that. It is a big deal, but it’s a big deal BECAUSE it’s more than a partnership-it’s two becoming one. There are two sides to this-lovemaking (IN A MARRIAGE) is very important-it’s crucial to some people. However, marriage is SO MUCH MORE than just making love.
Just my opinion…
I agree with you that it’s important to be sexual with a spouse-I totally agree with that. It is a big deal, but it’s a big deal BECAUSE it’s more than a partnership-it’s two becoming one. There are two sides to this-lovemaking (IN A MARRIAGE) is very important-it’s crucial to some people. However, marriage is SO MUCH MORE than just making love.
Just my opinion…
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