Birth Control

[Truly_Beloved]

Actually, I have an excellent concept of “authentic” Church teaching - as I am finishing my masters in ecclesiastical history and have also been studying to work with the DRE - and the people at this parish are well acquainted with my views.

If you don’t mind sharing, are you in the Phoenix Diocese? I would like to very respectfully avoid your parish (PM me if you are in Phoenix). I apologize if that comes across as uncharitable; I couldn’t think of another way to say it, while still clearly communicating my thoughts.

As far as IVF goes, it’s easy to say with 6 kids that you don’t agree with it - but I know plenty of Catholics who didn’t believe in it until they were unable to conceive on their own. Now they literally thank God they were able to have a child that way.

There are also those of us who have experienced fertility issues who would never consider having a child through IVF, just like we would never consider stealing someone else’s child. There are morally licit and morally illicit ways of becoming a parent.

I’m glad that my kids won’t have to worry about sharing a room, having hand me downs, not being one of the only families who isn’t vacationing in whatever the neat place that year to vacation is or other things like that. And if it means having less children to be able to do that then my husband and I are o.k. with that.

Sharing a room, having hand-me-downs, and not “keeping up with the Joneses” are all valuable lessons that I hope to have my children experience, God willing. I know I’m thankful for all of those experiences, because I had them when I was a child. Those are some of my best memories.

 

[lovemyboys]

To say that a family makes you sick because they have too many children, I’m gobsmacked.

She was saying that the children being moved away from the parents at a young age and expected to be cared for by older siblings made her sick, not the actual number of children…

 

[ryecroft]

I (and anyone speaking of Church teaching) must be on your ignore list, because you don’t read and respond to anything posted regarding authentic Church teaching. You just keep spouting off your own personal (mis)interpretation. House size has probably never been a limiting factor through the centuries for limiting family size. People somehow managed. Now, today, we feel like each child should have their own bedroom or something. Ridiculous.

I did want to raise one more issue - and that was that people are talking about how for “centuries” this was the case - but I also must add that although there were large families, there was a Huge mortality rate of infants and people even if they made it to a certain age had riskier lives. Sure a woman might have many children, but her chance of death from childbirth was exponentially higher and the children were much more likely to die at an earlier age. It was necessary to have many children - plus the birth control that was available back then was much, much less reliable than the birth control we have today.

 

[ryecroft]

If you don’t mind sharing, are you in the Phoenix Diocese? I would like to very respectfully avoid your parish (PM me if you are in Phoenix). I apologize if that comes across as uncharitable; I couldn’t think of another way to say it, while still clearly communicating my thoughts.

.

Sharing a room, having hand-me-downs, and not “keeping up with the Joneses” are all valuable lessons that I hope to have my children experience, God willing. I know I’m thankful for all of those experiences, because I had them when I was a child. Those are some of my best memories.

In response to the first quote:
No, I won’t tell you what Dioscese I’m in or where I teach religious education - But I will tell you this, for all that I say on here, I say because I am in a forum where we’re supposed to be able to come out and voice our opinions. I have been Catholic all my life - and I know very few people, including myself who believe wholeheartedly that the Roman Catholic Church is, was and always will be correct in everything it says and does. There have been plenty of mistakes made in the past - and I get that much of that is due to the fact that Humans make up the Church. Given that - when I teach Religion, I teach it as I am supposed to teach it. Much of it I agree with and believe - I actually can’t name one person at my Church or even Priest I know who agrees 100% with all of what the Catholic Church says and its docterines - and as far as birth control, there have been MANY Bishops who have even come out in favour of birth control being a good idea- there are also Priests out there that believe that there should be female Priests - some Bishops have ordained them. (granted they were excommunicated, but then a number of months later they were reinstated - I never saw a retraction saying what they did was wrong - but I also never saw the women that were ordained reinstated- that almost seemed a double standard to me, but I digress.) So yes, I don’t believe every single “doctrine” that the Church teaches and everything that it says - I seriously doubt that there are many Priests out there that agree with what happened with everything that happened during Vatican II.
So my point is, I will teach what the Church teaches, but that does not mean I have to agree with every last bit of it. I believe that young Catholics have enough problems with faith without me confusing them. They’ll have time enough later in life when they’re older to figure out how they feel about the Church and her teachings. Right now, I want to make sure that they know the docterine as its supposed to be taught. When I get questions, I do not put my opinion out there. Now when I’m having lunch with a friends of mine who also teach religion and CCD we do discuss opinions just as I do when I’m having lunch with a friend of mine who’s a Priest.

Let me put this in another light - Let’s say that I’m a Civics/government/social studies teacher as well - just because I’m teaching government or Civics doesn’t mean that I whole heartedly believe or agree with every law and every judgement that the government has ever made. I will teach what I’m supposed to teach.

In response to the second quote:
I have never said that those were bad experiences, just experiences I would prefer my children not to have to endure/deal with. I think it’s wonderful that your kids are learning those lessons - I’m just as thrilled that my children will get to go to Europe and Asia during their breaks and that they’ll be able to go to whatever college they wish and not have to worry about working a job in order to pay for college. Perhaps you’re wanting to raise your children as you have been raised - that’s all I’m wanting to do as well. It seems like you’re trying to say that I’m bashing the experiences that occur in large families where the funds have to be stretched to include many children - in all honesty, I’m not, I’m just saying I’d prefer that my children have different experiences, like the ones I had. I’m sure you want your children to have every possible advantage in life the same as my husband and I do - we just see them getting those advantages in different ways.

 

[ryecroft]

She was saying that the children being moved away from the parents at a young age and expected to be cared for by older siblings made her sick, not the actual number of children…

Thank you for clearing it up -that’s exactly what I meant - I thought I came accross fairly clear, but I guess I didn’t.

 

[TLM08]

Personally, my husband and I, (as did our parents) want to do better than to just manage.

Watch out!
There are people in these forums who will take this above remark and call it “selfish”. I disagree. Selfishness is in “celibate” church leaders who forbid parents to employ non-abortive, highly effective “conception prevention” practices when their family has reached a size limit that the parents can properly provide for all in an effort to control the intimate lives of the flock and at the same time boost church membership with a steady stream of SUVs that are burtsing at the seams pulling into the lot in Sunday morning.

Is the local archdiocese going to buy the groceries and pay the utility bill when the parents of 10 hungry children loose their income?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

In response to the first quote:
No, I won’t tell you what Dioscese I’m in or where I teach religious education - But I will tell you this, for all that I say on here, I say because I am in a forum where we’re supposed to be able to come out and voice our opinions. I have been Catholic all my life - and I know very few people, including myself who believe wholeheartedly that the Roman Catholic Church is, was and always will be correct in everything it says and does. There have been plenty of mistakes made in the past - and I get that much of that is due to the fact that Humans make up the Church. Given that - when I teach Religion, I teach it as I am supposed to teach it. Much of it I agree with and believe - I actually can’t name one person at my Church or even Priest I know who agrees 100% with all of what the Catholic Church says and its docterines - and as far as birth control, there have been MANY Bishops who have even come out in favour of birth control being a good idea- there are also Priests out there that believe that there should be female Priests - some Bishops have ordained them. (granted they were excommunicated, but then a number of months later they were reinstated - I never saw a retraction saying what they did was wrong - but I also never saw the women that were ordained reinstated- that almost seemed a double standard to me, but I digress.) So yes, I don’t believe every single “doctrine” that the Church teaches and everything that it says - I seriously doubt that there are many Priests out there that agree with what happened with everything that happened during Vatican II.
So my point is, I will teach what the Church teaches, but that does not mean I have to agree with every last bit of it. I believe that young Catholics have enough problems with faith without me confusing them. They’ll have time enough later in life when they’re older to figure out how they feel about the Church and her teachings. Right now, I want to make sure that they know the docterine as its supposed to be taught. When I get questions, I do not put my opinion out there. Now when I’m having lunch with a friends of mine who also teach religion and CCD we do discuss opinions just as I do when I’m having lunch with a friend of mine who’s a Priest.

magenta"]Let me put this in another light - Let’s say that I’m a Civics/government/social studies teacher as well - just because I’m teaching government or Civics doesn’t mean that I whole heartedly believe or agree with every law and every judgement that the government has ever made. I will teach what I’m supposed to teach.

In response to the second quote:
I have never said that those were bad experiences, just experiences I would prefer my children not to have to endure/deal with. I think it’s wonderful that your kids are learning those lessons - I’m just as thrilled that my children will get to go to Europe and Asia during their breaks and that they’ll be able to go to whatever college they wish and not have to worry about working a job in order to pay for college. Perhaps you’re wanting to raise your children as you have been raised - that’s all I’m wanting to do as well. It seems like you’re trying to say that I’m bashing the experiences that occur in large families where the funds have to be stretched to include many children - in all honesty, I’m not, I’m just saying I’d prefer that my children have different experiences, like the ones I had. I’m sure you want your children to have every possible advantage in life the same as my husband and I do - we just see them getting those advantages in different ways.

Please, provide proof of the reinstatement of bishops who ordained women priests.

I keep up with the news…I guess I missed it.

 

[lovemyboys]

Watch out!
There are people in these forums who will take this above remark and call it “selfish”. I disagree. Selfishness is in “celibate” church leaders who forbid parents to employ non-abortive, highly effective “conception prevention” practices when their family has reached a size limit that the parents can properly provide for all in an effort to control the intimate lives of the flock and at the same time boost church membership with a steady stream of SUVs that are burtsing at the seams pulling into the lot in Sunday morning.

Is the local archdiocese going to buy the groceries and pay the utility bill when the parents of 10 hungry children loose their income?

You’re making a LOT of assumptions about priests and NFP here. NFP doesn’t produce 10 children unless the couple wants 10 children. The modern methods of NFP actually do work. Sorry to ruin your nice little anti-Catholic delusion. Also, in the privacy of the confessional, most priests will tell people just to follow their own consciences if they are having serious problems with NFP. I can assure you that they’re not out to ruin poor people’s lives like you seem to think.
Also, trying to get the “steady stream of SUVs” in the parking lot is a “Bible believing” Protestant thing… In my hometown, the large “Bible believing” Protestant churches actually hired marketing firms to figure out how to get the most money out of the congregations. At my old Protestant church, people were treated differently based on how much money they gave. Collection envelopes were sent out to people who hadn’t even requested them. A reminder of the appropriate amount of tithing was always there. I’ve NEVER ONCE seen a Catholic priest who seemed to care about people’s money (other than to get the light bills paid). I’ve never had anyone pander to me for money like Protestants did. So don’t go there…

 

[kage_ar]

Teaching civics by a teacher who does not beleive the laws will not lead those students into sin.

I pray that all the parents who have trusted you with the religious education of their children have been made aware of your heretical views, if you are an honest person, you will let the parents know that you do not believe what the Church teaches.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

No, the only moral way to limit children is via total or periodic abstinence. Contraception is immoral and it separates the procreative and unitive meaning of the marital embrace. I have nothing to get over at all because this is authentic Church teaching on the matter. Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

The teaching that contraception is immoral is a Catholic teaching. It is not God’s teaching; perhaps because birth control is something that is between a husband and wife and God – not the Catholic Church. In addition, it is important to remember that NFP doesn’t come from God either.

 

[kage_ar]

it is important to remember that NFP doesn’t come from God either.

Let me see, God made the female body, he designed her to have fertile and infertile times and very clear signs when this is happening. Sounds pretty well designed by Holy Immortal God.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Let me see, God made the female body, he designed her to have fertile and infertile times and very clear signs when this is happening. Sounds pretty well designed by Holy Immortal God.

Be honest. If NPF is so “natural” and the signs of fertility are so clear, there wouldn’t be so many “oops” pregnancies while using NFP. Nor would couples have to take classes to learn to use it. NFP must be practiced “perfectly” in order to be effective. Also,I have read enough posts on these forums to realize that NFP causes additional stress and conflict in many marriages. Is NFP natural? Only if daily temperature taking and mucus testing comes naturally to you.

 

[lovemyboys]

Priscilla: NFP is the most natural thing people can do to avoid having a baby every 1-2 years of their married lives. Do you disagree with that?

Also, have you actually practiced the Billings Method? It is easy and VERY natural to observe mucus. Women do it all the time; the women who don’t know Billings just don’t know what the different types of mucus correlate to in their cycles. It’s actually great to know about your cycles like this; I think mucus observations should be taught to every female (not as family planning, but as education about your own body). Also, many of my Protestant friends are now doing NFP because they have realized that hormonal contraceptives are terribly unhealthy and may cause a fertilized egg to be lost. Also a lot of people who aren’t even religious are realizing how great NFP is because it’s NATURAL-- no hormones or latex required.

And if you haven’t done NFP yourself, I’m really not interested in your opinions of it. If someone who has done NFP has a compliant, I’m happy to read it and take it seriously, but Protestants who get on OUR site and try to tell us what to think about OUR methods are LUDICROUS.

Of course, as a former contracepting Protestant I understand all of the arguments, and I even understand why you get on the Catholic sites. I also know that your arguing is your way of searching for the truth. So please keep on coming back and challenging us…

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Priscilla: NFP is the most natural thing people can do to avoid having a baby every 1-2 years of their married lives. Do you disagree with that?

Also, have you actually practiced the Billings Method? It is easy and VERY natural to observe mucus. Women do it all the time; the women who don’t know Billings just don’t know what the different types of mucus correlate to in their cycles. It’s actually great to know about your cycles like this; I think mucus observations should be taught to every female (not as family planning, but as education about your own body). Also, many of my Protestant friends are now doing NFP because they have realized that hormonal contraceptives are terribly unhealthy and may cause a fertilized egg to be lost. Also a lot of people who aren’t even religious are realizing how great NFP is because it’s NATURAL-- no hormones or latex required.

And if you haven’t done NFP yourself, I’m really not interested in your opinions of it. If someone who has done NFP has a compliant, I’m happy to read it and take it seriously, but Protestants who get on OUR site and try to tell us what to think about OUR methods are LUDICROUS.

Of course, as a former contracepting Protestant I understand all of the arguments, and I even understand why you get on the Catholic sites. I also know that your arguing is your way of searching for the truth. So please keep on coming back and challenging us…

No, I haven’t practiced NFP. My observations on the method and its consequences are largely based on what I have learned from these forums, and the few couples I know who have tried it (with little success). By the way, I have not used the birth control pill either; there are other effective methods that a husband and wife can use – methods that are not harmful to their physical health or the health of their marriage.

My search for truth led me out of the Catholic Church quite a few years ago. And yes, I did find that truth in a non-Catholic Christian tradition. My 38 years in Catholicism taught me the practice of religion. My search for truth led me to a relationship with Jesus Christ. I continue to have a weird fascination with man-made Catholic rules and the way Catholics think they are the only ones who have the “fullness of truth”. Having spent most of my life as a practicing Catholic, I still don’t get it, but find your rules and opinions rather interesting. That’s what keeps me coming back… You do provide interesting reading.

 

[ryecroft]

Teaching civics by a teacher who does not beleive the laws will not lead those students into sin.

I pray that all the parents who have trusted you with the religious education of their children have been made aware of your heretical views, if you are an honest person, you will let the parents know that you do not believe what the Church teaches.

Did you even read all of what I said? Perhaps I was not clear enough, so let me make this more clear - I teach exactly what the Baltimore Chatecism teaches and if there is a question beyond that I go to the Chatecism. My ways are not “heretical” as I don’t teach with religious education anything that goes against what the Baltimore Chatecism says. And even Fr. Corapi backs that one up. The fact that I have disagreements with what the church says does not make me “heretical” - if it did, there are A LOT of people that need to “step down” before I do.
But I forgot, you agree with every single thing the church has said, currently says and ever will say. Well you’re one of the very few Catholics who feel this way if this is the case. If we were to excommunicate every member of the Church who did not believe that everything that the Church taught in the past, currently teaches and will teach in the future, there would be few members of the RCC left and even fewer members of the clergy. I was a postulate at one time and I got to see a side of the clergy/Church that not too many lay people get to see. The beliefs I didn’t completely accept, I just told myself I was wrong about and or misunderstood something - I soon found that wasn’t the case.
You have made your views of me and my beliefs well known on here (at least the one regarding the theraputic abortion I had to have to save my life) - I ask for help with getting my husband excited about getting the O.K. to try to get pregnant again and over the fear of the 5 miscarriages we had and the one theraputic, non direct abortion (which I have been told our Priest was the only choice to be made)- and I Thank God that I’m still around to try again. When I put that up, you made a point of shoving Rachel’s Vinyard down my throat and my husbands even when I told you my husband and I agreed that it did not apply to either I or my husband and even the Priest said that it wasn’t something we needed to do unless we just “felt like” it might help. You kept mentioning it until you were able to make the thread more about something being done that was medically necessary to keep me alive- yes called an abortion, and about Rachel’s Vinyard - you know I really think you need to stop pointing out the possible stick in my eye and worry about the stake in your own.

Now as far as the parents go - I do actually know quite a few of them - since I’ve moved, many have become friends and acquaintances and I do not hide how I feel when the conversation goes to the teachings of the Church- most are familiar with what I do teach. I have had no complaints and I’m happy to say no one has wanted to cease being my friend or wanted me to stop teaching their children. I was actually worried about leading astray some kids - since I didn’t want to botch up the whole teaching about your concience and sin, so I got one of the Sisters to come in and help me give that teaching to the 8th graders. Turns out, I would have siad very little different. You’d be suprized how many Religious agree with some of the things I’ve said on here. And I will state again, this is a forum where you’re supposed to be able to speak your mind.

Let me put one of your comments another way - you spoke about a civics teacher not believing in the laws will not lead a child into sin - you’re correct - if the civics teacher teaches the law as it is stated- if that teacher teaches it differently, then it can bring a child into sin - sin that would occur by breaking a law.

The same can be said for religion -I have stated that I teach straight from Baltimore Chatecism and back it up with the Chatecism. As long as I teach what those two state - no one will be led into any possibility of sin - whether or not I believe with every fiber of my being what it says. The truth is I believe much of what the Church says - there are only a few teaching with which I have disagreements - I also figure that kids today get enough crossed messages - so I got permission to do the Baltimore Chatecism - it doesn’t set forth any really confusing ideas. The kids will have plenty of time later to figure out what they agree with or don’t agree with. Then it will be their decision and no skin off my head.

I’ve gotten a few e-mails and posts with people backing me up - saying “thank you for reminding everyone on here that most Catholics don’t agree with EVERYTHING taught in the Chatecism.” This is paraphrased from a number of comments I’ve gotten.

I feel like I’m being (verbally stoned) by some like you Kage ar - who even though I have spoken to priests regarding my spiritual journey and about using birth control for medical reasons and about the abortion (which I’m told by the clergy was NOT a direct abortion nor was there really any other choice to be made)- I guess you feel you know better than they do. Just remember, you seem to be judging me - and I remember hearing judge not lest ye be judged. Matt 7:1

 

[kage_ar]

No stoning, only a challange to be loyal to Holy Mother Church.

 

[just_me_1]

Sympto-Thermal looks at the cervical mucous, cervical position, and basal body temperature signs to track fertility during a cycle.
If “labor intensive” means remembering to take your temperature (3 seconds) and checking your cervix and mucous during the day when you use the bathroom (5 seconds) then yes.

Yes, there is an initial investment of time trying to get to know your own particular cycle - but after that it’s second nature - literally taking SECONDS per day (about as much effort as it would require to remember to take your pill at the same time every day ).

hi, I was reading through this thread because my NFP method is not working for us AT ALL. (creighton-- mucous only)… I seem to be on day like… 40-ish of babymaking mucous. I am starting to look into other methods too. does this method (sympto-thermal) need to check the cervix EVERY time you use the bathroom? once a day? does it hurt? When I was close to having my baby I had mine checked every week or 2, and it hurt like heck, so I’m paranoid… thanks!

 

[Jennifer_J]

hi, I was reading through this thread because my NFP method is not working for us AT ALL. (creighton-- mucous only)… I seem to be on day like… 40-ish of babymaking mucous. I am starting to look into other methods too. does this method (sympto-thermal) need to check the cervix EVERY time you use the bathroom? once a day? does it hurt? When I was close to having my baby I had mine checked every week or 2, and it hurt like heck, so I’m paranoid… thanks!

I’m not Em, but have used sympto thermal off and on over the last 12 years. Normally you only check the cervix once a day, not in the morning. It shouldn’t hurt–it’s not a baby cervix check you just touch it gently to see open/closed and hard/soft and high/low.

Here’s an online manual for learning the symptothermal form of NFP
nfpandmore.com/

Hope that helps!

 

[Consecrated]

Responsible, reliable birth control is not misusing the act of sex, nor is it a sin. It is a moral responsibility. Get over it!

No, the only moral way to limit children is via total or periodic abstinence. Contraception is immoral and it separates the procreative and unitive meaning of the marital embrace. I have nothing to get over at all because this is authentic Church teaching on the matter. Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

In addition to seconding what Jennifer says, I was also wondering if you’re saying that we have a moral responsibility to practice some sort of birth control in order to limit the number of children we have? So if a couple (debt-free, insured, with a stable job) was not using anything, but just accepting life as it comes, that to you is morally irresponsible?

The world is so upsidedown.

And, FWIW, i know many people who believe wholeheartedly in the doctrinal teachings of the Church. I also know many people who openly admit to not understanding some of them. a firm faith and a search for understanding are not mutually exclusive. in fact, they complement each other nicely.

 

[wanner47]

The teaching that contraception is immoral is a Catholic teaching. It is not God’s teaching; perhaps because birth control is something that is between a husband and wife and God – not the Catholic Church. In addition, it is important to remember that NFP doesn’t come from God either.

God’s teaching = the Catholic Church’s teaching. That’s how Jesus set up His Church. Just because you deny this Truth does not mean that it ceases to be.

As a former Protestant, I admit I am amazed at the hubris I once had, thinking that God had appointed me arbiter of all knowledge. Who cares if 2,000 years of theological study by incredibly learned and holy theologians and Tradition said otherwise? I was following MY conscience! Until I began studying Catholicism, it never occured to me that perhaps my conscience was being misled by my own selfish desires.

I’ve never been happier since I embraced the teachings of Catholicism, and if I hadn’t done so I doubt I would have the amazing children that I do today.