Birth Control

[heart4home]

The marquette method doesn’t say anything about that many days of abstaining and I’m sort of basing what ive been doing on that. After recording my surge this month I was planning on abstaining for 24 hours before it happens next month as well, but i wasnt planning on almost 2 weeks. I wonder if this is a good idea for me after all then. If I have to choose between a non abortifacient BC and straining my marriage I will choose the former. It would be different if he were like-minded but I would basically be “cutting him off” in this case because when you add in the abstaining during the period that really doesn’t leave any time to be intimate at all. that will cause a lot of discord if a husband isn’t on board with it.

Every woman is different, but I think after several months of observing your cycle, body symptoms etc. you will feel more comfortable.

If you are using just OPKS, here would be the problem. If you have relations on say CD10 or 11 because you have negative OPK, you may wake up to a +++ OPK on CD 12 and ovulation on CD 13 or Cd 14. Sperm CAN live up to about 5 days. So if you had gone ahead and had sex on CD 11 you could indeed end up pregnant.

However, if you get a +++ OPK, you can assume, but not know for sure that you will ovulate within about 12-72 hours. Then if you give an extra 48 hours to be safe, that would mean 5 days of abstaining after a +++ OPK.

HOWEVER, the only real way to know if you ovulated , is by temping. You can check your cervix and see if it has closed etc., make sure you have no fertile CM etc., but it’s still not going to be a guarantee.

You really can not just go on OPKs alone because what could happen is you could surge, get the +++ OPK and for whatever reason, your body doesn’t ovulate so then a week later when you think you are safe, you surge again and ovulate.

The only sure way to know if you have ovulated is to temp. When you see the temp rise after the dip and the +++ OPK and all the EWCM is gone and the cervix is closed then you can feel confident.

If you are a pretty regular person and you know your body, you can feel pretty confident without temping, but it’s not going to be a guarantee without the temps. Personally I don’t temp, but as I’ve said my dh and I are both in agreement to be open to life.

I can understand the frustration that you feel when your dh is not on board with it all.

Do you have an instructor that you are working with.

I mean if your period is only about 5 days, and if you are regular and ovulate around CD 14, you can feel fairly safe in having relations CD 6-8. Then you would need to stop again until CD 17 and then you’d have the rest of the month. So that’s 9 days in the middle plus the 5 days of your cycle. So basically 14 days our out of 28 that would not be able to have relations.

But again I can not tell you to go by that if you have grave reasons to avoid, and obviously for your having your dh not on board is a grave reason. Of course I could never suggest you go against the teachings of the Church.

You have my prayers.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

Every woman is different, but I think after several months of observing your cycle, body symptoms etc. you will feel more comfortable.

If you are using just OPKS, here would be the problem. If you have relations on say CD10 or 11 because you have negative OPK, you may wake up to a +++ OPK on CD 12 and ovulation on CD 13 or Cd 14. Sperm CAN live up to about 5 days. So if you had gone ahead and had sex on CD 11 you could indeed end up pregnant.

However, if you get a +++ OPK, you can assume, but not know for sure that you will ovulate within about 12-72 hours. Then if you give an extra 48 hours to be safe, that would mean 5 days of abstaining after a +++ OPK.

HOWEVER, the only real way to know if you ovulated , is by temping. You can check your cervix and see if it has closed etc., make sure you have no fertile CM etc., but it’s still not going to be a guarantee.

You really can not just go on OPKs alone because what could happen is you could surge, get the +++ OPK and for whatever reason, your body doesn’t ovulate so then a week later when you think you are safe, you surge again and ovulate.

The only sure way to know if you have ovulated is to temp. When you see the temp rise after the dip and the +++ OPK and all the EWCM is gone and the cervix is closed then you can feel confident.

If you are a pretty regular person and you know your body, you can feel pretty confident without temping, but it’s not going to be a guarantee without the temps. Personally I don’t temp, but as I’ve said my dh and I are both in agreement to be open to life.

I can understand the frustration that you feel when your dh is not on board with it all.

Do you have an instructor that you are working with.

I mean if your period is only about 5 days, and if you are regular and ovulate around CD 14, you can feel fairly safe in having relations CD 6-8. Then you would need to stop again until CD 17 and then you’d have the rest of the month. So that’s 9 days in the middle plus the 5 days of your cycle. So basically 14 days our out of 28 that would not be able to have relations.

But again I can not tell you to go by that if you have grave reasons to avoid, and obviously for your having your dh not on board is a grave reason. Of course I could never suggest you go against the teachings of the Church.

You have my prayers.

Thanks for the advice. My illnesses rule out temp and CM so it really does sound like I won’t be able to rely on NFP in the end unless C-position is an indicator. I wouldnt like to be pregnant right now due to my health but i don’t have extreme reason to avoid and we are not closed to life (the method we were using before isn’t even that effective really) so Im going to go on and see if I can observe any symptoms that I can use along with the opk’s. If not, then I’m not going to beat myself up about it; God will know that I at least tried. So far I’m not sure if I’m “regular” or not, my periods are about 3 days or less and I surged on day 9. We don’t have an instructor. When we go to talk to someone in the church we may ask about that but as of now dh isnt very interested. He thinks avoiding while you are fertile because you should be open to life and give yourself fully etc, is not logical. Thanks again for the advice.
Ginger

 

[choose_to_love]

@rascal re post 371

Rascal, you know I love ya, but now who is doing the mind reading? Gleefully?

As to countrysinger’s assertion of one day being available, if memory serves, a healthy cycle always has 11 to 16 days post-ovulatory, so one day is not realistic. Now if someone is learning charting, or has a health problem, that is different, obviously, but that means one needs to learn how to chart and/or address the health problem.

As far as discussing CM, a couple of points. One, the couple does not discuss that prior to intimacy in the sense of hey, honey, how’s your mucus today, nor does one take a temperature, prior to heading off to the bedroom. It is part of an ongoing discernment, and ideally the discernment about whether or not the couple is being called to have a child at that time or not is conducted well prior to the fertile time, i.e., not in the heat of the moment.

Second, I have always found knowing my bride’s cycle not to be icky, nor anything like bathroom habits, since it is related to our creation as male and female in the image and likeness of the trinitarian Creator of the Universe, Who made us in His image so that we would know about the life and love of the Trinity, and that He trusts us with the decision to co-create an eternal soul with Him when we engage in intercourse. And one would compare that to bowel habits? Really?

The other part of knowing about the bride’s cycle is that both partners can be on board, and the wife specifically does not become the “gatekeper”, so to speak, of marital intimacy. Often in our culture it seems that the decision on birth regulation is the woman’s responsibility, and while less true in a marriage, I think the point still stands. My bride often says I knew her cycle better than she did, mainly because I was recording the temps and doing the writing part of the charting. Now, she is partly joking, but there is truth in there too. My knowledge of the cycle really helped bring us even closer, and she appreciated that I knew and accepted the whole of her… I realize every couple is different, of course, and what works for one might not for another, but the point is that there is more than one way to approach charting and the day-to-day practice of NFP, and the attitude one brings to it can really affect how it is practiced.

 

[catharina]

@rascal re post 371

Rascal, you know I love ya, but now who is doing the mind reading? Gleefully?

As to countrysinger’s assertion of one day being available, if memory serves, a healthy cycle always has 11 to 16 days post-ovulatory, so one day is not realistic. Now if someone is learning charting, or has a health problem, that is different, obviously, but that means one needs to learn how to chart and/or address the health problem.

As far as discussing CM, a couple of points. One, the couple does not discuss that prior to intimacy in the sense of hey, honey, how’s your mucus today, nor does one take a temperature, prior to heading off to the bedroom. It is part of an ongoing discernment, and ideally the discernment about whether or not the couple is being called to have a child at that time or not is conducted well prior to the fertile time, i.e., not in the heat of the moment.

Second, I have always found knowing my bride’s cycle not to be icky, nor anything like bathroom habits, since it is related to our creation as male and female in the image and likeness of the trinitarian Creator of the Universe, Who made us in His image so that we would know about the life and love of the Trinity, and that He trusts us with the decision to co-create an eternal soul with Him when we engage in intercourse. And one would compare that to bowel habits? Really?

The other part of knowing about the bride’s cycle is that both partners can be on board, and the wife specifically does not become the “gatekeper”, so to speak, of marital intimacy. Often in our culture it seems that the decision on birth regulation is the woman’s responsibility, and while less true in a marriage, I think the point still stands. My bride often says I knew her cycle better than she did, mainly because I was recording the temps and doing the writing part of the charting. Now, she is partly joking, but there is truth in there too. My knowledge of the cycle really helped bring us even closer, and she appreciated that I knew and accepted the whole of her… I realize every couple is different, of course, and what works for one might not for another, but the point is that there is more than one way to approach charting and the day-to-day practice of NFP, and the attitude one brings to it can really affect how it is practiced.

Beautiful statement. Thank you.

 

[Augusta_Sans]

I am 100 percent again abortion because it is the ending of a life that has begun. However, I do not see what is wrong about birth control - it is preventing the beginning of a life, not ending a life.

Hormonal birth control is an abortifacient–it can end the life of an unborn child before you even know you’re pregnant. Not only that, but it’s detrimental to your physical health (it’s a carcinogen and can cause life-ending blood clots) and detrimental to your marriage’s spiritual health.

My husband and I are not ready to have children right now for a variety of personal reasons that I am not going to get into.

On one hand: Why did you get married if you weren’t ready to have children? The marriage vow includes a promise to be open to life–why did you lie to your fiancee AND to God on your wedding day?

On the other hand: My husband and I were also not ready to have children. (In hindsight, we were NOT ready to get married either! But dumb kids make dumb mistakes!)

Are we really supposed to remain celibate for years because of this? I find that completely absurd. And what of the couples that already have several children? Do they simply stop having sex after having a couple of kids?

Please be honest… because you don’t find a lot of Catholic families with 6 or more kids anymore… so I’m SURE I’m not the only person who feels this way.

I can’t figure out how you managed to be raised Catholic and get married in the Catholic church and maintain this level of naivety regarding NFP. NFP does not require celibacy (though my husband and I did have grave reasons for avoiding children early in our marriage and did practice celibacy). If your reasons to avoid children are genuine (and not just a matter of convenience) I’m sure you can muster up the self control to be celibate (or at least to abstain for one week a month).

Humans are not wild animals that must have sex when “in heat.” You are intelligent spiritual beings who can choose to have sex when it is a meaningful and selfless act.

 

[choose_to_love]

@augusta:

The OP was not educated in the faith her whole life, as stated in her first post.

Two: She did not lie in her wedding vows. I am not even sure she was married in the Church. One promises, I think, to receive willingly whatever children God sends them. The couple could, through discernment of the proper application of the principles of responsible parenthood, determine that they had just reason to postpone pregnancy - - I don’t think the OP has even addressed this issue (although 27 pages later, maybe I am forgetting). IMO, the couple can acknowledge that the procreation and education of children is the primary end of marriage, agree that they will accept children lovingly, and determine at the same time that they are not being called to have a child immediately upon marriage. It is an ongoing discernment, as mentioned previously

Were you trying to make a rhetorical point, in the sense of the primary purpose of marriage, combined with the contrast of your next statement about you & your hubby not being ready either?

The whole tenor of your post seems out of character for you. Am I misreading it badly? I must be. Typically I think your witness and sharing of your story is awesome, BTW, so I don’t get the lying accusation unless it was a flourish to make a point

 

[Augusta_Sans]

The whole tenor of your post seems out of character for you. Am I misreading it badly? I must be. Typically I think your witness and sharing of your story is awesome, BTW, so I don’t get the lying accusation unless it was a flourish to make a point

You’re right–my post comes off harsher than intended and makes some (apparently false) assumptions.

I did notice in the original post that the OP identified Catholic, but wasn’t educated in her faith throughout her life. I then falsely assumed that she was married in the Catholic church (hence my assumption that she would have done the usual marriage prep (including NFP education) and would have made the usual Catholic marriage vow). Now that you point out that the OP is not necessarily married in the Catholic church, I would like to soften my sentiments, as they were predicated on the false assumption that people who identify “Catholic” marry in the Catholic church and make Catholic marriage vows.

Regarding “lying” at the alter: in hindsight, I wasn’t entirely honest when I took MY Catholic wedding vows because I knew I wasn’t ready for children and I entered the marriage fully intending to use NFP to avoid children until I felt “ready.” Back then, I should have understood that my “un-readiness” to commit to the WHOLE wedding vow was an indication that I wasn’t ready for marriage yet. Just now, I shouldn’t have judged the OP based on MY personal experience.

However, regardless of a person’s faith (or lack thereof), hormonal birth control is always detrimental to one’s physical health and the spiritual health of the marriage. And all humans (Catholic or not) are intelligent spiritual beings capable of the self control necessary to abstain from sex when “in heat” and preserve sex as a “self giving” act, rather than a “take what you want and leave the rest” act.

 

[choose_to_love]

@gingersnaps: You don’t have an instructor? Holy smokes, can you try to find one? What I mean is, you have a situation where, it seems to me, you really need human backup as far as interpreting and learning about NFP. You shouldn’t have to be in this all alone, as it were. I don’t know if you posted that before, but when I read it, honest, my thought was, you poor thing! Couple to Couple League, a local diocese, etc.? I see in this thread marquette has an online instructor. Has anyone mentioned the Pope Paul VI Institute or One More Soul list of pro-life only OB-GYNs? Paul VI does research on NFP, and if there are special considerations for sjogren’s, they would know about it, I would imagine.

Side note: My daughter attends her first communion class at an Anglican use parish, where the priest, along with his family and most of his parish, as I understand it, converted with him. Have you had the opportunity to discuss conversion with a priest who has converted? stthomasmoresociety.org/ if you are interested. It looks like you can email the pastor.

@augusta: agree on your last paragraph, of course. On the larger theoretical point, can a couple use NFP from the get-go if they have just reasons - - in your opinion - - should they marry at that time if they discern they have just reason to postpone? Just thought questions. I think they can use NFP if they have discerned just reasons.

 

[Augusta_Sans]

@augusta: agree on your last paragraph, of course. On the larger theoretical point, can a couple use NFP from the get-go if they have just reasons - - in your opinion - - should they marry at that time if they discern they have just reason to postpone? Just thought questions. I think they can use NFP if they have discerned just reasons.

You know, I don’t know the official answer to that. It sounds like a question for a trained apologist, not a lowly lay person like myself. However, my opinion based on my own experience is that one should not make ANY vow if one has no intention of honoring ALL aspects of it. If a couple is aware that they are “not ready” for the fullness of the Catholic marriage vow, they should not enter into it.

Obviously circumstances do change over time–after a few years of marriage, a woman might learn that pregnancy will result in her instantaneous death (I haven’t heard any medical evidence of this particular condition, but I see a lot of people cite it as justification for using birth control). Of course this situation would have no bearing on my opinion of whether or not the marriage was a good idea.

Regarding the original poster’s situation: she says she has grave reasons for avoiding pregnancy. If her reasons are legitimate, no method of birth control EXCEPT abstinence is 100% effective. Every time she and her husband have sex, they will be taking a chance that intercourse will result in pregnancy. Additionally, every time they have intercourse, they will take the chance that intercourse will result in an ABORTED pregnancy. In my opinion, if her reasons were legitimately “grave” she would not be willing to take either chance. It seems to me that using birth control in order to avoid giving herself fully to her husband is a matter of convenience, not grave reasons.

 

[spunjalebi]

NFP does not require celibacy (though my husband and I did have grave reasons for avoiding children early in our marriage and did practice celibacy).

I’m really, really, trying to understand this, but have to ask: is that what God really intended for marriage? Celibacy? If God intended celibacy to occur in marriage, why get married at all? I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again-- marriage is the only place in life where it’s okay to have sex-- so why would one be celibate? Especially since the Bible says that a married couple shouldn’t abstain for long periods of time?

 

[Gingersnaps4]

@gingersnaps: You don’t have an instructor? Holy smokes, can you try to find one? What I mean is, you have a situation where, it seems to me, you really need human backup as far as interpreting and learning about NFP. You shouldn’t have to be in this all alone, as it were. I don’t know if you posted that before, but when I read it, honest, my thought was, you poor thing! Couple to Couple League, a local diocese, etc.? I see in this thread marquette has an online instructor. Has anyone mentioned the Pope Paul VI Institute or One More Soul list of pro-life only OB-GYNs? Paul VI does research on NFP, and if there are special considerations for sjogren’s, they would know about it, I would imagine.
.

When we go to our inquiry session I’m going to ask what would be available for me, help wise. My Dh is not interested in a couples class though. I think that given his viewpoint, if NFP turns out to be uber difficult for me, I’m just going to shelf the idea. I’m going to give it a fair chance first though, of course. And I may end up trying a combo of NFP along with another method if it turns out it’s the best I can do. Better than not trying at all…

 

[Jennifer_J]

I’m really, really, trying to understand this, but have to ask: is that what God really intended for marriage? Celibacy? If God intended celibacy to occur in marriage, why get married at all? I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again-- marriage is the only place in life where it’s okay to have sex-- so why would one be celibate? Especially since the Bible says that a married couple shouldn’t abstain for long periods of time?

God doesn’t intend celibacy in marriage. Infact, he calls us to generosity. However, we are also given the option to abstain if we can’t handle another child. Sometimes celibacy is needed for a variety of reasons, for instance during a difficult pregnancy, after delivery, physical incapacitation of a spouse, mental issues, injury, exaustion and so forth. Marriage isn’t a sex free for all.

From 1 Corinthians 7:5

Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control

NFP shouldn’t require long periods of abstinence, unless there is an underlying medical issue. If that’s the case, I suggest the Pope Paul Institute naprotechnology.com/

 

[Rascalking]

God doesn’t intend celibacy in marriage. Infact, he calls us to generosity. However, we are also given the option to abstain if we can’t handle another child. Sometimes celibacy is needed for a variety of reasons, for instance during a difficult pregnancy, after delivery, physical incapacitation of a spouse, mental issues, injury, exaustion and so forth. Marriage isn’t a sex free for all.

That’s all true.

I have alot of friends who are nonreligious/not Catholic, etc-and sometimes it is quite hard not to convince them that Catholics aren’t “anti-sex”. I can’t blame for thinking that sometimes. It’s true that many Catholics seem almost gleeful lecturing others about celibacy in marriage, and seem unaware that it can be a difficult burden. (No, I’m not saying you did this, just something I’ve noticed)

 

[Jennifer_J]

That’s all true.

I have alot of friends who are nonreligious/not Catholic, etc-and sometimes it is quite hard not to convince them that Catholics aren’t “anti-sex”. I can’t blame for thinking that sometimes. It’s true that many Catholics seem almost gleeful lecturing others about celibacy in marriage, and seem unaware that it can be a difficult burden. (No, I’m not saying you did this, just something I’ve noticed)

I’m sure there are probably people out there like that…there always are. I think the difference is that Catholics (should) have a deep understanding that sex is a holy activity. It’s a restatement of those marriage vows and therefore sacramental in nature. Is it for pleasure and for babies, yes! But it is deeper than that. Two are becoming one–it’s a total self giving, or it should be. Abusing this sacramental is a serious thing. Celibacy in marriage, of course isn’t easy. But neither is celibacy easy for priests, nuns, and single people. It’s a challenge to control oneself. But isn’t that true about many things? I’d rather eat the whole bag of m&m’s than just a few. I’d rather sleep all day rather than do the dishes and clean the house. I’d rather do the things I want than serve my family sometimes. Doing the right thing isn’t always easy and doing the easy thing isn’t always right.

 

[catharina]

I’m sure there are probably people out there like that…there always are. I think the difference is that Catholics (should) have a deep understanding that sex is a holy activity. It’s a restatement of those marriage vows and therefore sacramental in nature. Is it for pleasure and for babies, yes! But it is deeper than that. Two are becoming one–it’s a total self giving, or it should be. Abusing this sacramental is a serious thing. Celibacy in marriage, of course isn’t easy. But neither is celibacy easy for priests, nuns, and single people. It’s a challenge to control oneself. But isn’t that true about many things? I’d rather eat the whole bag of m&m’s than just a few. I’d rather sleep all day rather than do the dishes and clean the house. I’d rather do the things I want than serve my family sometimes. Doing the right thing isn’t always easy and doing the easy thing isn’t always right.

:clapping:

The years of true celibacy required when a spouse is very ill is no picnic -
but it’s totally do-able. People can rise above their instincts.

 

[HouseArrest]

I’m really, really, trying to understand this, but have to ask: is that what God really intended for marriage? Celibacy? If God intended celibacy to occur in marriage, why get married at all? I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again-- marriage is the only place in life where it’s okay to have sex-- so why would one be celibate? Especially since the Bible says that a married couple shouldn’t abstain for long periods of time?

I think God intended sex for marriage the way it was designed, not an altered version where you take half of it and leave the other half. That makes it “not” what God designed at all. It may seem like the same thing, but it is not.

So you can either take it or leave it, your choice.

 

[HouseArrest]

I’m really, really, trying to understand this, but have to ask: is that what God really intended for marriage? Celibacy? If God intended celibacy to occur in marriage, why get married at all? I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again-- marriage is the only place in life where it’s okay to have sex-- so why would one be celibate? Especially since the Bible says that a married couple shouldn’t abstain for long periods of time?

I think God intended sex for marriage the way it was designed, not an altered version where you take half of it and leave the other half. That makes it “not” what God designed at all. It may seem like the same thing, but it is not.

So you can either take it or leave it, your choice.

 

[HouseArrest]

I’m really, really, trying to understand this, but have to ask: is that what God really intended for marriage? Celibacy? If God intended celibacy to occur in marriage, why get married at all? I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again-- marriage is the only place in life where it’s okay to have sex-- so why would one be celibate? Especially since the Bible says that a married couple shouldn’t abstain for long periods of time?

I think God intended sex for marriage the way it was designed, not an altered version where you take half of it and leave the other half. That makes it “not” what God designed at all. It may seem like the same thing, but it is not.

So you can either take it or leave it, your choice.

 

[HouseArrest]

Whoops, didn’t mean to post it three times?

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Here’s something worth mentioning about the pill - quoted from the link below:

catholicexchange.com/2011/01/17/146008/

quote:

**Many of the dangers of the pill are listed on the package insert. One conference speaker suggested we visit our local “friendly” pharmacy and ask to see this insert for ourselves: “If you hold one end of the insert high up, the other end will drop to the floor,” she warned.
A nurse at the conference described her visit to a stroke unit. Amidst the elderly faces, there were also young girls. “Why are they here?” She inquired. She was then told that they “had been on the pill.” How easy it is to ignore that there are real lives that will ultimately succumb to the side effects listed on the pill’s package insert. **

There’s also a well established link between hormonal contraception (the pill) and breast cancer, especially a particularly aggressive and difficult-to-treat form named “triple negative breast cancer”. According to a large epidemiological study by researchers of the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center (Seattle) and the NCI (National Cancer Institute), the risk of triple negative breast cancer is increased 4.2-fold in a population of young women who used birth cotrol pills. The overall risk of breast cancer at large (all forms of breast cancer) is also increased more than 2-fold.

The WHO (World Health Organization) now categorizes hormonal contraceptives as “carcinogens”.

This is creepy. Young girls suffering strokes - a disease traditionally affecting the elderly. And women getting breast cancer because of the pill.