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captaincatholic
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I agree with the bolded statement.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
If that helps, then sure.Actually, now that I think about it, one simple change is needed.
The Catholic Church does NOT teach that sex must be procreative.
It teaches that sex must be unitive, and you must climax in your partners vagina, with no barrier or chemical present.
I mean that honestly. Correct me if I am wrong, but my statement is far more accurate. As best I can tell, that is what the Church teaches, and it help immensely reduce confusion and conflict.
But, go ahead and do a CTRL-F on any of these pages and search for the word procreative and you’ll find it plenty of times… so the church DOES teach it.
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.shtml
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PassingThru
Guest
Your quote of a real definition:Whoa, whoa… I’m sorry if the English language is difficult to understand… but this isn’t rocket science.
You can just as easily take that “if fertility is present” out… that was simply to make a point.
The adjective form of the word still stands. I don’t care how many people on the street can understand the definition of a word (I’ve seen Leno, and it scares me!), it is what it is and the church isn’t contriving anything. It’s a descriptive adjective used on the word sex. This isn’t crazy church interpretation.
Take it to an English major for an analysis if you need to.
You can use the word to describe anything… it doesn’t have to be sex. The church simply uses the word to describe the morality of the marital act.
(prō’krē-ā’tĭv) pronunciation
adj.
- Capable of reproducing; generative.
Please answer.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
It’s describing the WORD SEX.Your quote of a real definition:
(prō’krē-ā’tĭv) pronunciation
adj.
If I have sex only when my wife is veritably infertile, is that action capable of reproduction?
- Capable of reproducing; generative.
Please answer.
The SEX is procreative.
It says nothing about the PERSON.
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plinko
Guest
And I would argue that semantics is what is causing the argument.I would like to argue that playing symantics is not productive here. The issue is moral behavior.
Procreative means “capable of being fertile”. Procreation is the exact moment when two haploid cells become a unique diploid. It has nothing to do with describing the act of sex. So when the Catechism says that marriage is “unitive AND procreative”, that is an EGREGIOUS error, unless you are conceiving each and every time you have sex. This, based on observation and logic, is obviously not the case.
Do you see why semantics are important? Language is how we communicate and so there needs to be guidelines for each word. The Church has thrown away the guidelines to the word “procreate” and all its derivations.
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PassingThru
Guest
When did I say the Church doesnt teach that? Please. Ill wait.If that helps, then sure.
But, go ahead and do a CTRL-F on any of these pages and search for the word procreative and you’ll find it plenty of times… so the church DOES teach it.
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.shtml
I specifically said the church is the ONLY place you will get such a definition. I specifically agreed with that point. What is your point?
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Jennifer_J
Guest
Even the dictionary agrees that procreative means ordered toward procreation, look it up–it’s not some made up Church definition. The Church teaches that sex must be unitive and procreative–and procreative means that all things being equal, procreation could happen, which means what your wrote above and what everyone defending Church teaching has been saying for PAGES.Actually, now that I think about it, one simple change is needed.
The Catholic Church does NOT teach that sex must be procreative.
It teaches that sex must be unitive, and you must climax in your partners vagina, with no barrier or chemical present.
I mean that honestly. Correct me if I am wrong, but my statement is far more accurate. As best I can tell, that is what the Church teaches, and it help immensely reduce confusion and conflict.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
I haven’t even had a drink yet tonight!The Catholic Church does NOT teach that sex must be procreative.
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Jennifer_J
Guest
merriam-webster.com/medical/procreativeWhen did I say the Church doesnt teach that? Please. Ill wait.
I specifically said the church is the ONLY place you will get such a definition. I specifically agreed with that point. What is your point?
I actually hate doing this, because Merriam-Webster isn’t the Church, but even the dictionary agrees with the Church’s use of the word.
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captaincatholic
Guest
Can you diagram a sentence? I can help you if you can’t. Procreative applies to the act of sex. An act of having intercourse without the hindrance of chemicals is capable of generating new life. Whether or not a persons’s physiology can support that or whether there are natural deprivations that prevent that does not change whether or not that act was performed in a way that could be generative.
Does this make sense to you?
Does this make sense to you?
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Jennifer_J
Guest
No, procreative means ordered to procreation. Procreation is the act of procreating or reproducing.And I would argue that semantics is what is causing the argument.
Procreative means “capable of being fertile”. Procreation is the exact moment when two haploid cells become a unique diploid. It has nothing to do with describing the act of sex. So when the Catechism says that marriage is “unitive AND procreative”, that is an EGREGIOUS error, unless you are conceiving each and every time you have sex. This, based on observation and logic, is obviously not the case.
Do you see why semantics are important? Language is how we communicate and so there needs to be guidelines for each word. The Church has thrown away the guidelines to the word “procreate” and all its derivations.
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PassingThru
Guest
Ill replace “procreative” in your new assertion:It’s describing the WORD SEX.
The SEX is procreative.
It says nothing about the PERSON.
The sex is capable of reproducing.
It still is false.
I never said anything about the person.
As plinko just further defined, you are changing words, not I.
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Gingersnaps4
Guest
aBC is not fail proof. The form I’ve used is about 85% effective, give or take. But in any case, abstaining while fertile is less open to life than using a barrier during said time. Maybe throughout the entire menstrual cycle NFP is more “open”, but during the fertile period it is less. Then there is the FAM NFP method. A FAM user would have to be more open to life than a NFP+ abstinence user so in that case it could be argued that it’s more moral, if being open to life is a distinguishing factor.How can someone using ABC be open to pregnancy? The whole POINT is to avoid it. If a couple is using ABC and open to pregnancy, they are sabotaging themselves. Or very confused.
I agree with your point that if someone is unwilling to accept a pregnancy, they should not have sex. I do not see where someone on ABC could possibly be open to life.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
The SEX is capable of reproducing. The PEOPLE aren’t. The sex is done in a way where conception can take place.Ill replace “procreative” in your new assertion:
The sex is capable of reproducing.
It still is false.
I never said anything about the person.
As plinko just further defined, you are changing words, not I.
Okay… that’s it, I’m drinking.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Ahh…no sex act can be capable of reproduction. My kids are not copies of my self or my husband. Wouldn’t the term “reproduce” be misused?Ill replace “procreative” in your new assertion:
The sex is capable of reproducing.
It still is false.
I never said anything about the person.
As plinko just further defined, you are changing words, not I.
We procreated…(along with God)
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plinko
Guest
I sort of see what you’re saying. The sex is “capable of being fertile”. However, that is a HUGE slap in the face to every woman and every man who cannot have a kid. I am highly offended every time someone says “Well Plinko, maybe SOMEDAY with God’s grace, you will have a kid”. No. Just no. That sounds patronizing and makes a mockery out of my issue.It’s describing the WORD SEX.
The SEX is procreative.
It says nothing about the PERSON.
So I have to respectfully disagree that any sex I have is procreative. I am not “capable of being fertile”. The definition doesn’t fit; stop trying to put a square peg in a round hole.
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Jennifer_J
Guest
Open to life is a misnomer…it should be ordered to procreation. When the act is engaged in, it needs to be ordered properly. It’s not a percentage game, it’s the way the act is ordered.aBC is not fail proof. The form I’ve used is about 85% effective, give or take. But in any case, abstaining while fertile is less open to life than using a barrier during said time. Maybe throughout the entire menstrual cycle NFP is more “open”, but during the fertile period it is less. Then there is the FAM NFP method. A FAM user would have to be more open to life than a NFP+ abstinence user so in that case it could be argued that it’s more moral, if being open to life is a distinguishing factor.
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captaincatholic
Guest
That act of sex, if completed in a whole and undeformed, perfect couple, is capable of facilitating conception.Ill replace “procreative” in your new assertion:
The sex is capable of reproducing.
It still is false.
I never said anything about the person.
As plinko just further defined, you are changing words, not I.
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PassingThru
Guest
Ehhh, Ill ask you the same question.merriam-webster.com/medical/procreative
I actually hate doing this, because Merriam-Webster isn’t the Church, but even the dictionary agrees with the Church’s use of the word.
If I only have sex with my wife when she is veritably infertile, is this act of sex capable of reproducing?
That is your definition.
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