Birth Control

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Em_in_FL said:
I understand your point… but this discussion is about the morality of sexuality. The dictionary is not going to give you guidance in that. The church does…
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I know. And it is definitely clear that NFP is certainly natural. But it is still a form of contraception. I am starting to understand, though, why Catholics practice NFP instead of ABC.
 
kdragonfly said:
You have spoken my fears aloud. I’m TERRIFIED of becoming a parent like my mom. And she was like that because she had a very abusive parent. I do not want to continue the cycle of abuse! I suppose I should trust in God on this one. I’m glad we are all talking about this stuff and getting it out in the open because maybe then healing and understanding can take place.
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Been following along and all…just wanted to say something.

If you had an abusive parent, please get counseling. I finally got some counseling after I had my third baby and I realized I was starting to say things like my mom used to say to me. Through counseling I have discovered many abusive things I grew up with. by discovering I mean mostly, that I never viewed them as abusive (most abuse victims don’t) until an objective outsider was putting a name on the behaviors I described.

I can completely tell that I’ve become a better wife and mother because I’ve worked through things in counseling. I praise God for getting me in there while my children were young and I hadn’t had an opoprtunity to do much emotional damage. And I feel ready to face the teen years with my girls and hope to maintain a good strong, healthy, non-abusive relationshiop with all of my children.

Counseling will help tremendously. I go through Catholic Charities (you don’t have to be Catholic to get services through them) and pay a very reasonable rate for my therapy.
 
3GirlsRUs said:
Been following along and all…just wanted to say something.

If you had an abusive parent, please get counseling. I finally got some counseling after I had my third baby and I realized I was starting to say things like my mom used to say to me. Through counseling I have discovered many abusive things I grew up with. by discovering I mean mostly, that I never viewed them as abusive (most abuse victims don’t) until an objective outsider was putting a name on the behaviors I described.

Counseling will help tremendously. I go through Catholic Charities (you don’t have to be Catholic to get services through them) and pay a very reasonable rate for my therapy.
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Don’t worry… I’m taking care of myself. 🙂
 
kdragonfly said:
I know. And it is definitely clear that NFP is certainly natural. But it is still a form of contraception. I am starting to understand, though, why Catholics practice NFP instead of ABC.
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Catholics like to *refine *our definitions… 😃
I know it’s confusing, that’s why these threads come up. These discussions are good, they need to be had. Otherwise everyone would ONLY turn to the dictionary to define our morality!
We have to *expand *those definitions to *clarify *the morality… that’s all…
 
3GirlsRUs said:
Been following along and all…just wanted to say something.

If you had an abusive parent, please get counseling. I finally got some counseling after I had my third baby and I realized I was starting to say things like my mom used to say to me. Through counseling I have discovered many abusive things I grew up with. by discovering I mean mostly, that I never viewed them as abusive (most abuse victims don’t) until an objective outsider was putting a name on the behaviors I described.

I can completely tell that I’ve become a better wife and mother because I’ve worked through things in counseling. I praise God for getting me in there while my children were young and I hadn’t had an opoprtunity to do much emotional damage. And I feel ready to face the teen years with my girls and hope to maintain a good strong, healthy, non-abusive relationshiop with all of my children.

Counseling will help tremendously. I go through Catholic Charities (you don’t have to be Catholic to get services through them) and pay a very reasonable rate for my therapy.
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I applaud you.
How wise and compassionate, loving and sensible!
 
Em_in_FL said:
Catholics like to *refine *our definitions… 😃
I know it’s confusing, that’s why these threads come up. These discussions are good, they need to be had. Otherwise everyone would ONLY turn to the dictionary to define our morality!
We have to *expand *those definitions to clarify the morality… that’s all…
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Yep.
There is no way one will find accurate Catholic teaching in
secular writings - not dictionaries, the press, history or fiction.
 
Em_in_FL said:
Catholics like to *refine *our definitions… 😃
I know it’s confusing, that’s why these threads come up. These discussions are good, they need to be had. Otherwise everyone would ONLY turn to the dictionary to define our morality!
We have to *expand *those definitions to *clarify *the morality… that’s all…
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Good points!!

I went to a Catholic college for my undergrad degree. Some of my professors were very compassionate and spiritual nuns, but they were also very intelligent and scientific, and I appreciated that they encouraged open dialogue and even dissent in our classes. (Clearly they allowed non-Catholics to attend, lol, that’s how I got there.) But I do have to say that the experience helped me to fully break away from the JW’s, and I’m eternally grateful.

I tried calling my parish today regarding adult confirmation classes, but it was after hours, so I am going to shoot them an e-mail. Thanks again for your helpful posts regarding a very sensitive topic!
 
catharina said:
You seem to consider it a valid source.
Yet it contradicts Catholic teaching.

???
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So, instead of explaining why we don’t like something, we instead change the meaning of the words? I can’t remember Christ ever using that approach with the Pharisees.
 
LemonAndLime said:
NFP is a natural form of contraception.

I think that the problem here is your definition of the word contraception, not the actual one.
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I think that this is game playing. Are you arguing that there is a Biblical definition of the word contraception?

Alright, if NFP is a natural form of family planning, and it causes a time barrier to conception (which it does), then why is a lambskin condom not a natural form of family planning (it causes a spacial barrier to conception)?
 
kbachler said:
So, instead of explaining why we don’t like something, we instead change the meaning of the words? I can’t remember Christ ever using that approach with the Pharisees.
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I’m saying this.

I look to the CHURCH for Catholic teaching.
Why would I expect to find it elsewhere?
 
kbachler said:
I think that this is game playing. Are you arguing that there is a Biblical definition of the word contraception?

Alright, if NFP is a natural form of family planning, and it causes a time barrier to conception (which it does), then why is a lambskin condom not a natural form of family planning (it causes a spacial barrier to conception)?
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Because it disassociates the unitive and procreative aspects of marital sexuality.
 
kbachler said:
Can you point to that definition please?
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2370
Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159
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Code: 
    Thus the innate LANGUAGE that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory LANGUAGE, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . **The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.**160
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This is where the church distinguishes the differences.
 
Em_in_FL said:
I understand your point… but this discussion is about the morality of sexuality. The dictionary is not going to give you guidance in that. The church does…
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But the dictionary does give us the agreed-upon definition of the words we use, so tha we don’t have another “Tower of Bable”
 
Em_in_FL said:
You are looking at a woman’s cycle as a whole… that’s irrelevant. Each and every time the act takes place must be both unitive and procreative, which is the case with NFP, but not with ABC.
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The woman’s cycle IS a whole, so I don’t see how it can possibly be irrelevant. If at times in the cycle the event is less likely to be procreative than under other forms of contraception, then how do you reasonably argue that the act is procreative? And why would NFP even exist if it weren’t to take “advantage” of this fact??
 
kbachler said:
Can you point to that definition please?
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Briefly and quickly:

from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. **In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . **. . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160
 
kbachler said:
The woman’s cycle IS a whole, so I don’t see how it can possibly be irrelevant. If at times in the cycle the event is less likely to be procreative than under other forms of contraception, then how do you reasonably argue that the act is procreative? And why would NFP even exist if it weren’t to take “advantage” of this fact??
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I’ll repeat it again… Procreative does NOT mean Fertile.
 
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