Birth Control

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Vincent1560:
I agree that we may not be overpopulated in the sense that Earth may be capable of supporting more people. However, given distribution problems with food supplies and the undeniable starvation happening in the third world, I thnk it is safe to say that it would not be prudent, at least in some areas of the world, to increase the population and may even be prudent to limit it (WE MUST NEVER EVER RESORT TO ABORTION/MURDER HOWEVER)

Also plesase check my previous post again because I have added an important qualifier to the end of it that I would like everyone participating to keep in mind.
Qualification noted.

I am gald to hear that you reject abortion.

I can understand your concern about world hunger issues. However, this situation has less to do with demographics and more to do with geo-politics and regional politics. Generally in regions where you find starvation you also find inept or corrupt government of a ruling elite. A more viable solution is global stablization with is a goal rooted in virtue as opposed to birth-control which is vice. Further in those cultures that are mentioned that focus on male domination of women such as South Africa one is dealing more with superstitious beliefs which is contrary to the faith so in this instance we need evangalization which is rooted in virtue and not birth-control which is vice. Birth Contol has proven to not be a panacea for anything but has rather contributed to decay and moral deviance which in turn does not build a society but helps speed its degradeation.
 
AK29, if you want some good reading about conversions, then read Cardinal John Henry Newman’s Apologia Pro Vita Sua. Newman was a great Anglican scholar who, through his readings of the ealry Church Fathers, basically converted himself. He didn’t want to convert but, in his heart of hearts, could not escape the fact that the Catholic Church was (and still is the same as) the early church. If you want to read some the the Church Fathers’ writings, you can visit catholic.com/library/fathers_know_best.asp

Another great book (written much more recently) is Rod Bennett’s, Four Witnesses: The Early Church in Her Own Words. I urge you and everyone to check these books out.
 
Though many people would like for us to believe that there is no Scriptural reference to birth control, there is in fact at least one I can think of off hand, found in the book of Genisis. It tells us that it is God who opens the womb.Contraception takes God out of the marital act. We are not able to create life without him. Introducing ANYTHING to the marital act that stops or limits the ability to conceive, in effect removes God from the from the process. Remember that God is love, hence you now have lust.The church is consistent in Her teaching on this, insisting that there are three partners in the marriage, the husband, wife, & God. There are many beutiful teachings in the Catechism, check there for more information
 
Peace be with you

A better question to ask a sola-scriptura protestant is.
Show me where the Bible gives any examples or anything concrete
to show where God suggest or commands us not to have or bring children into this world? I have not seen any such thing yet. On the contrary from begining to end we are told to have more and not to hinder so in any aspect.
Ron
 
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Vincent1560:
And please don’t cite Onan. The sins he committed were envy, pride, and disobedience to God’s command for him to provide his brother with an heir. The only way you can come up with a prohibition against birth control from that passage is by adding things to the text that aren’t there.
I’m afraid you are dead wrong on this point as this article will demonstrate: catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9107chap.asp
 
Vincent, you sound like me about a year ago!

I hope you followed Scott’s advice to read catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9107chap.asp.
It’s short and sweet.

You asked, “If the concern over condoms is not allowing your marriage to be open to children, how is NFP any different? If you say God can still enable the woman to get pregnant using NFP, then surely you would agree he can cause the condom to be ineffective as well.”

That’s a good, tough question. I can’t give a short answer; please bear with me.

NFP is natural, just like it says. It uses what God has already given us: the natural cycles of the woman’s body.

As an earlier writer said, a couple may not use NFP to avoid children. It should be used to space children, when that is desireable for a good reason. Finances are only one; there are also women who need to space their children to recover their health between pregnancies. There are also brave women who use NFP to avoid pregnancy because a pregnancy could kill them. The “sane” person might go ahead and contracept - the Catholic person trusts God.

Of course, those arguments can also be used in favor of contracepting. So why is contracepting wrong?

Because we are messing with God’s plan. Abstaining during fertile days does not prevent anything; if there is no egg, there is no pregnancy. And the reason there is no egg is because God made us that way, not because we decided for ourselves what we would allow God’s will to be.

Catholic marriages must be open to new life. Contraception is an act of self will, which closes the marital embrace to new life, and is thus an offence against marriage.

At Gethsemane, Jesus said, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” (Matt 26:39)

Using contraception is saying only, “Let this cup pass from me.” We’re interfering in God’s will.
 
Do we really have too many people, or too many material posessions? If factories did not produce as many goods, we would have less pollution. Without them, we would also have more space. A garage in the US could easily house a family in a 3rd world country. Cars pollute and contribute to global warming.
Which costs more- an new Mercedes or a new baby. Both need food or fuel and insurance.

If we went back to a farming society, people would be healthier. In China, they now have Walmarts. It is really the rice that can feed the world.

If we went back to farming, there would be less polltion, healthier people.

If there was less pollution, there would be less carcinogenic estrogen. If there are less hormones, teenagers would not develop so quickly. If they cannot reproduce at 15, then they won’t. There would also be less cancer.

Why do we need so much stuff? People can make you happy, families will love you, but your Mecedes will only pollute the world. :cool:
 
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Ruthie:
Vincent, you sound like me about a year ago!

I hope you followed Scott’s advice to read catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9107chap.asp.
It’s short and sweet.

That’s a good, tough question. I can’t give a short answer; please bear with me.
NFP is natural, just like it says. It uses what God has already given us: the natural cycles of the woman’s body.

As an earlier writer said, a couple may not use NFP to avoid children. It should be used to space children, when that is desireable for a good reason. Finances are only one; there are also women who need to space their children to recover their health between pregnancies. There are also brave women who use NFP to avoid pregnancy because a pregnancy could kill them. The “sane” person might go ahead and contracept - the Catholic person trusts God.

Of course, those arguments can also be used in favor of contracepting. So why is contracepting wrong?

Because we are messing with God’s plan. Abstaining during fertile days does not prevent anything; if there is no egg, there is no pregnancy. And the reason there is no egg is because God made us that way, not because we decided for ourselves what we would allow God’s will to be.

Catholic marriages must be open to new life. Contraception is an act of self will, which closes the marital embrace to new life, and is thus an offence against marriage.

At Gethsemane, Jesus said, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” (Matt 26:39)

Using contraception is saying only, “Let this cup pass from me.” We’re interfering in God’s will.

Thank you. That is an understandable position to hold. I disagree with it, but understand how one could come to hold it and not be unreasonable. I do not think however that it is possible to conclude from Scripture that sex is only meant for pro-creation (see my above posts). Indeed Paul writes to husbands and wives not to deny each other except for times of fasting and prayer inorder to deter them from sexual immorality. Abstaining inorder to comply with the requirements of NFP seems to be an unecessary burden, especially for a young couple; non-abortofacient birth control solves this issue. I agree that children are a gift to be embraced and that a married couple should be willing to be parents. However part of being good parents could include limiting their family to what they can provide for, protecting the mother if another pregnancy would harm or kill her (which would also make her incapable of fulfilling her obligation to care for already existing children) etc. I also disagree with NFP being acceptable as opposed to other birth control because it is natural. God gaves us brains to subdue nature and master it (within certain constraints of course i.e. no human cloning) Modern medicine enables us to lead healthier, longer and happier lives by altering the natural course our bodies would otherwise take, so I don’t think unnatural equals intrinsically evil.

I read the article and again think its stretching scripture to accomodate a belief. There are other instances were God has seen fit to end life inorder to provide an example to his people, where death was not necessarily warranted according to Levitical law. Lot’s wife was transformed into a pillar of salt for looking back at the city (normally not an executable offense). Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his Son (God ultimately did not require him to, but Abraham’ willingness showed that he did not think it beyond God’s right to demand life at anytime for any reason) and Ananias and Sapphira were struck down for saying they gave more than they actually had to the church. In other cases throughout the Old and New Testament God has chosen to show mercy to those who have committed sins waranting death according to Levitical law (David would be one example off hand seeing as how he committed murder, adultrey and envy all in one go). The point is that the penalties in the Levital laws were for men to enforce the law amongst each other, God is neither bound nor limited by the punishments prescribed in them.
 
I read the article and again think its stretching scripture to accomodate a belief
Ok, well given the choice between the modern fad-claim that it is stretching Scripture vs. 2000 years of Church history including most of the Reformers, I’ll take door #2.

Scott
 
Scott Waddell:
Ok, well given the choice between the modern fad-claim that it is stretching Scripture vs. 2000 years of Church history including most of the Reformers, I’ll take door #2.

Scott
Over a thousand years of church history taught that the Earth was the immovable center of the universe and that stars rotated on crystalline conveyeur belts. The church was so confident in this that they threatened and condemned as heretics those who believed or taught otherwise. Subsequently there interpretation was proven wrong. Just because something has been believed for a long time doesn’t make it true. Please don’t think I am trying to criticise Catholics here. I am just pointing out that Catholism is not an infallible institution. I have great respect for many Catholics, and especially admired Pope John Paul II for holding firm against the liberal progresssive agenda that has been sweeping the world. I also thought the cardinals did well in electing Ppe Benedict XVI who I feel will also resist these trends.
 
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Vincent1560:
Over a thousand years of church history taught that the Earth was the immovable center of the universe and that stars rotated on crystalline conveyeur belts. The church was so confident in this that they threatened and condemned as heretics those who believed or taught otherwise. Subsequently there interpretation was proven wrong. Just because something has been believed for a long time doesn’t make it true. Please don’t think I am trying to criticise Catholics here. I am just pointing out that Catholism is not an infallible institution. I have great respect for many Catholics, and especially admired Pope John Paul II for holding firm against the liberal progresssive agenda that has been sweeping the world. I also thought the cardinals did well in electing Ppe Benedict XVI who I feel will also resist these trends.
This is not a very critique against the issue at hand. It is a strawman. Over and above that it is revisionist history. You are correc tin saying that the Church is not an infallible institution (in science) that is of course because no person is as no truth qua truth can be discerned by the empirical sciences. However, on matters of faith and morals under which this falls it has full competance to definitivally state that birth contol falls outside the area of objective moral good.
 
There are four Bible verses which condemn use of pharmakeia, the Greco-Roman euphemism for orally-imbibed and vaginally-applied contraceptives, mainly silphium tea, asafoetida tea, Queen Anne’s Lace tea and rue.

Cyrene, Libya, became rich on its export of the very successful oral contraceptive silphium.
Three of the verses condemning pharmakeia insist that (presumably unrepentant) pharmakeia users will be damned to eternal Hell fire.
 
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mosher:
This is not a very critique against the issue at hand. It is a strawman. Over and above that it is revisionist history. You are correc tin saying that the Church is not an infallible institution (in science) that is of course because no person is as no truth qua truth can be discerned by the empirical sciences. However, on matters of faith and morals under which this falls it has full competance to definitivally state that birth contol falls outside the area of objective moral good.
Right. Apples and oranges.

Scott
 
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mosher:
This is not a very critique against the issue at hand. It is a strawman. Over and above that it is revisionist history. You are correc tin saying that the Church is not an infallible institution (in science) that is of course because no person is as no truth qua truth can be discerned by the empirical sciences. However, on matters of faith and morals under which this falls it has full competance to definitivally state that birth contol falls outside the area of objective moral good.
If it was not a matter of morals and theology to the Catholic church, then why did the Church care? The fact is that the Church’s conception of the universe was filled with theology. The concentric circles contained varying degrees of perfection, the heavens were composed of metaphysical ether that was a perfect substance and the earth’s central position in this system was another theological idea demonstrating man’s fallen state when compared to the unfallen heavens. And why did the cardinals in concert with the pope (supposedly an infallible combination) sentence him to house arrest and force him to recant his views if they were of no moral or theological importance? And if my argument is a straw man, I would like to point out that appealing to authority does not make an argument valid either. I don’t wish my post to be interpretted as uncharitable, I have great respect for Catholics, but just believe your analysis of this matter is wrong.
 
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Vincent1560:
If it was not a matter of morals and theology to the Catholic church, then why did the Church care? The fact is that the Church’s conception of the universe was filled with theology. The concentric circles contained varying degrees of perfection, the heavens were composed of metaphysical ether that was a perfect substance and the earth’s central position in this system was another theological idea demonstrating man’s fallen state when compared to the unfallen heavens. And why did the cardinals in concert with the pope (supposedly an infallible combination) sentence him to house arrest and force him to recant his views if they were of no moral or theological importance? And if my argument is a straw man, I would like to point out that appealing to authority does not make an argument valid either. I don’t wish my post to be interpretted as uncharitable, I have great respect for Catholics, but just believe your analysis of this matter is wrong.
It had nothing to do with the substance of his use of the heliocentric model which if you read the writing of the Jesuit scholars of the time including St. Robert Cardinal Bellermine they had been using the heliocentric model for years in their research and studies. The condemnation was placed because he taught something as absolute truth that could not be claimed as absolute due to the nature of the induction. Also, there were some claims that he was teaching stuff as a quasi-religion. For these reasons the condemnation was handed down. You have to remember that Gallileo was a person friend of the Holy Father at the time and well respected. His arrest and confinement was to the Cardinal quarters and not a prison.
 
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mosher:
It had nothing to do with the substance of his use of the heliocentric model which if you read the writing of the Jesuit scholars of the time including St. Robert Cardinal Bellermine they had been using the heliocentric model for years in their research and studies. The condemnation was placed because he taught something as absolute truth that could not be claimed as absolute due to the nature of the induction. Also, there were some claims that he was teaching stuff as a quasi-religion. For these reasons the condemnation was handed down. You have to remember that Gallileo was a person friend of the Holy Father at the time and well respected. His arrest and confinement was to the Cardinal quarters and not a prison.
I think we are getting a bit off track. My point was that your refutation of my analysis of the article was merely an appeal to the authority of Catholic tradition and it did not directly address my argument. My Galileo point was meant to show that beliefs held for a long time aren’t necessarily true. As I don’t accept papal infallibility, I would appreciate it if you could show me scriptually wether or not my analysis is legitimate.
 
“Thank you. That is an understandable position to hold. I disagree with it, but understand how one could come to hold it and not be unreasonable.”

Thank you for listening!

“I do not think however that it is possible to conclude from Scripture that sex is only meant for pro-creation (see my above posts).”

Of course not. It is the act by which “they become one flesh,” (Gen 2:23-24 (RSV) with all that implies. It should be the complete giving of each to the other. If either one is contracepting, they are holding something back. Choosing the time of the woman’s cycle when the egg is not present holds nothing back.

“Indeed Paul writes to husbands and wives not to deny each other except for times of fasting and prayer inorder to deter them from sexual immorality.”

Abstaining during the fertile period, for just reasons, is (as another poster pointed out) a fast.

“Abstaining in order to comply with the requirements of NFP seems to be an unecessary burden, especially for a young couple…”

Does this mean that you think premarital, or extra-marital sex is all right? I don’t get that impression from you. Marriage doesn’t imply unlimited access to sex 24-7. To fast from sex during marriage, for the sake of the spouse or of the children, is an act of merit.

“… non-abortofacient birth control solves this issue.”

Birth control may “solve” that issue, but it leads to a horrible kind of consumerism, where a pregnancy is caused not by the marital embrace, but by a failure of medicine. If your medicine doesn’t work, you go to the doctor to get it fixed. In the case of the failure of birth control, the “problem” is “fixed” by an abortion.

Which is why I believe that borth control is part and parcel of the Culture of Death.
 
Vincent 1560, if you want to learn more about Church teaching on this matter, visit:

catholic.com/library/Contraception_and_Sterilization.asp

In this link there are quotes from the early Church Fathers dating from the 1st through the 6th centuries. Each of these quotes tells us what the early Christians believed (what they were taught by the Lord, the Apostles, the bishops, deacons, and presbyters). When so many people, some of which were taught by the Apostles and some of which were taught by those taught by the Apostles (I know, a brain twister), say that artificial contraception is evil, how can you say that it is not? Are you better informed that these holy people who heard the teachings on this practically from the “horse’s mouth”?

Please tell me your opinion after reading these gems of knowledge.

Prayers and blessings on all,
FdeS2
 
Ruthie said:
“Thank you. That is an understandable position to hold. I disagree with it, but understand how one could come to hold it and not be unreasonable.”

Thank you for listening!

“I do not think however that it is possible to conclude from Scripture that sex is only meant for pro-creation (see my above posts).”

Of course not. It is the act by which “they become one flesh,” (Gen 2:23-24 (RSV) with all that implies. It should be the complete giving of each to the other. If either one is contracepting, they are holding something back. Choosing the time of the woman’s cycle when the egg is not present holds nothing back.

“Indeed Paul writes to husbands and wives not to deny each other except for times of fasting and prayer inorder to deter them from sexual immorality.”

Abstaining during the fertile period, for just reasons, is (as another poster pointed out) a fast.

“Abstaining in order to comply with the requirements of NFP seems to be an unecessary burden, especially for a young couple…”

Does this mean that you think premarital, or extra-marital sex is all right? I don’t get that impression from you. Marriage doesn’t imply unlimited access to sex 24-7. To fast from sex during marriage, for the sake of the spouse or of the children, is an act of merit.

“… non-abortofacient birth control solves this issue.”

Birth control may “solve” that issue, but it leads to a horrible kind of consumerism, where a pregnancy is caused not by the marital embrace, but by a failure of medicine. If your medicine doesn’t work, you go to the doctor to get it fixed. In the case of the failure of birth control, the “problem” is “fixed” by an abortion.

Which is why I believe that borth control is part and parcel of the Culture of Death.

Don’t be ridiculous :tsktsk: You know I was not advocating pre-marital sex or adultery (my mom was almost destroyed by my father doing it and I wouldn’t wish anyone to have to go through what she did), and it is disengenuous to suggest I was. It would be like me saying that since you believe in more prolonged periods of abstaining during marriage that you believe all married couples should be celibate.

And as for the life being a response to failure of medicine, I would respond that a child conceived from an NFP practicing couple would be a failure of technique. And I have already established that I believe abortion is murder and most other evangelicals do despite many of them supporting birth control, so I don’t see one leading to the other. I do see encouraging sex and “safer” sex to children in public schools as being responsible for increasing the amount of pre-marital sex and promiscuity which does lead to increased abortion.
 
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Vincent1560:
I think we are getting a bit off track. My point was that your refutation of my analysis of the article was merely an appeal to the authority of Catholic tradition and it did not directly address my argument. My Galileo point was meant to show that beliefs held for a long time aren’t necessarily true. As I don’t accept papal infallibility, I would appreciate it if you could show me scriptually wether or not my analysis is legitimate.
But you see my point was not even coming from a theological vein but from just basic moral principles. The condemnation of birth control does not require Scripture for proof. It is an issue of Natural Moral Law which is written on the hearts of man.
 
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