birth control......

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I provided a link with a quote from an apologist which says that abstinence is not required when taking the pill for medical reasons.
I am corresponding directly with those two apologists now.
Please provide a specific quote which says that taking the pill for ovarian cysts does not qualify.
Please provide a specific quote that abortifacients can be used therapeutically. HV 15 merely states that it is ok to treat a patient “even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result”. It says nothing to the effect that aborting life is ok.
This OP specifically states she was in a severe amount of pain. This isn’t simply about acne. The link I posted referred to PCOS and specifically states abstinence is not required. Endometriosis is another common reason for BCP…
At what point on the pain scale would you rationalize administering chemicals with abortifacient potential? How much pain does it take to make killing an innocent life ok? There are other treatments available for this woman’s case, and hormonal ‘contraception’ is questionable in its efficacy.
The thing that bothers me so much is that you stated your credentials first before inferring that this person should not follow the advice of her doctor, while you know almost nothing about this particular patient. It would have been entirely different to give your thoughts without relating your credentials first.
It seems that people elevate people with doctorates to the point of God himself. I am here to say that no person is nowhere near this point… we’re just as fallible as anyone else, and to say that the judgement of a physician grants immunity to God’s judgement is just plain wrong. Be careful my friend. You may be partaking in a very evil act by encouraging others to follow the way of this age.
 
…abstinence is not required when taking the pill for medical reasons.
I addressed this topic in one of my NFP courses and when I lectured to the seminarians. At the seminary, I included treating acne in my question and was told by the Associate Academic Dean, Director of Pre-Theology, & Assistant Professor of Moral Theology this may be licit.

This is the answer we were given in the NFP course by Fr. James Knapp:
In these truly therapeutic cases the safety of the dosage must be determined by the qualified and responsible health professional. Part of the moral or ethical consideration must be the intention of the one prescribing and the one who is asking for the prescription. So if a young woman is experiencing difficulty with her menstrual periods, or irregularity, etc., and her medical professional prescribes the homonal therapy in the
same amount that is found in the oral “contraceptive” pill, her “pill” is not being used as to prevent conception, but as hormonal therapy. In this case it would be moral because
of its TRULY therapeutic use and the good intended by the therapy. (Caution: a consideration of the safety risks and benefits, side-effects, etc. must be a part of the decision as well.)
BTW, I referenced this quote when asking.
“the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever” (HV 15).
 
I most definitely agree that medical treatment that inadvertently frustrates the procreative aspects of marital relations is not sinful as long as there are no other valid medical treatments and the reason for treatment is sufficiently grave.

What I don’t agree with is the use of ‘therapies’ which are abortifacient in nature when there is the possibility of intercourse during said treatment. I have yet to see an official Church statement that allows the killing of the unborn for treatment of ovarian cysts, acne, menstrual irregularity, etc. In fact, I have yet to see ANY Church statement granting the faithful permission to use abortifacient chemicals for the treatment of ANY medical condition when there is the possibility of intercourse during said treatment.

We could go even further into this debate and it could get really sticky… what about the use of cancer medication such as methotrexate or radiation… both of which are contraindicated in the pregnant patient. Do we deny this person marital relations during the period of treatment? The answer is YES. In fact, several drugs(ex. accutane) absolutely require repeated pregnancy tests and two forms of birth control(ex condom and ocp’s) to minimize the chance of extreme harm/death to the unborn fetus. Accutane, an acne medication, is a pregnancy category X for good reason… can the Christian take birth control while on this medication to ensure that you flush the embryo before accutane can cause irrepairable mutations to the poor child? Only if you do not have any marital relations during treatment.

So the question is this:

Which is more important… the protection of the unborn, or the medical treatment of the one you truly worship(yourself). We as a society have so many needs/wants/must-have’s… we are a society of rights… you have a RIGHT to whatever medical care you or your physician deems appropriate… this is a fallacy.

You were bought at a price. Honor God with your body and make the sacrifice to ensure you are not killing the precious lives that He is creating in His image. If you want the therapy, don’t have sex. If you want to have sex, don’t have the therapy. It’s as simple as that.
 
I am corresponding directly with those two apologists now.

Please provide a specific quote that abortifacients can be used therapeutically. HV 15 merely states that it is ok to treat a patient “even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result”. It says nothing to the effect that aborting life is ok.
You made a very direct statement “The Church CANNOT and WILL NOT allow abortifacient drugs to be used in the case of managing ovarian cysts if there is the possibility of intercourse during tx. Read the quote again:” yet you have not backed this up with any specific evidence, while I have provided two quotes from apologists which specifically and directly refute your claims. Catholic morality is not what the individual interprets, its what the church interprets, and Catholics are supposed to follow the church even if they don’t understand or disagree. If you are going up against the church leaders you need to have far more support than simply that you feel that way.

You did not respond to my point about double effect. Do you understand that terminology and how it is used? I am not saying this to insult, I am saying that this is a very important thing to understand, especially regarding these sensitive issues, and the Catholic Church’s birth control guidelines will make far more sense if you understand this important point.
At what point on the pain scale would you rationalize administering chemicals with abortifacient potential? How much pain does it take to make killing an innocent life ok? There are other treatments available for this woman’s case, and hormonal ‘contraception’ is questionable in its efficacy.
Medical need is a question for her W-HCP who knows her specific history.

Lady D I, thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, it is always appreciated =) Very interesting to hear that acne treatment may fall under these guidelines as well.
It seems that people elevate people with doctorates to the point of God himself. I am here to say that no person is nowhere near this point… we’re just as fallible as anyone else, and to say that the judgement of a physician grants immunity to God’s judgement is just plain wrong. Be careful my friend. You may be partaking in a very evil act by encouraging others to follow the way of this age.
I am not refuting that all are falliable. I am, however, stating that medical professionals have a huge responsibility when counseling someone about their health, and are to be held to a very high standard. There was no reason to state your medical credentials as the OP’s question was more of the moral implications. You are giving medical advice when you know next to nothing about this woman’s health, which is dangerous territory to tread on, especially when your advice is not conventional wisdom(i.e. eat chicken soup if you are sick), but it is to ignore her doctor.

Please look into double effect, and more information from apologists. This really has little to do with you, or I, but has everything to do with the woman’s spiritual and physical health.
So the question is this: Which is more important… the protection of the unborn, or the medical treatment of the one you truly worship(yourself).
No, the question is, which is more right: imposing your own ideas or imposing the Church’s ideas.
You were bought at a price. Honor God with your body and make the sacrifice to ensure you are not killing the precious lives that He is creating in His image. If you want the therapy, don’t have sex. If you want to have sex, don’t have the therapy. It’s as simple as that.
No. Its as simple as following the advice of the Church. Your assertions have not been in line with church teaching.
 
I am corresponding directly with those two apologists now.
Please provide a specific quote that abortifacients can be used therapeutically. HV 15 merely states that it is ok to treat a patient “even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result”. It says nothing to the effect that aborting life is ok…
What I don’t agree with is the use of ‘therapies’ which are abortifacient in nature when there is the possibility of intercourse during said treatment.
The pill is not considered contraception when it is used for a medical reason. Here are more quotes from different persons than I have previously quoted, if you think the issue is just with those two people alone. These other people are on the apologists forum, and back what I have been saying.

Fr. Vincent Serpa directly states one can have sex while on the pill for medical reasons
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=4618&highlight=abstinence

“The use of the pill for medical reasons may cause an UNintended miscarriage. Women often have unintended miscarriages—sometimes without even knowing it. It is only miscarriages that are INTENDED that the Church considers immoral. The Church never allows the pill to be used as an abortifacient. But it does allow the use of the pill for medical reasons with the possiblity of producing an unintended miscarriage—without obliging the couple to abstain from sexual relations during that time.” (emphasis mine)

Reginald Plum also agrees with the other apologists I posted
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=183960&highlight=abstinence

On a related note, Fr. Vincent Serpa states it is licit to engage in sexual relations with a spouse who is on birth control for contraceptive purposes

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=135215
 
The pill also is very bad for your overall health. I would stop taking the pill immediatly and find yourself a true pro-lfie doctor.
Actually, the pill is very effective at preventing ovarian cancer, which is known as “the silent killer” because it often shows no symptoms until it is too late. The pill have many “cons” associated as well, but to say it is bad for you health is, imo, not exactly true.
 
Actually, the pill is very effective at preventing ovarian cancer, which is known as “the silent killer” because it often shows no symptoms until it is too late. The pill have many “cons” associated as well, but to say it is bad for you health is, imo, not exactly true.
This is hype that is given by the pill companies that do not explain WHY.

THe pill makes the body think its pregnant.

Chances for cancer go down after pregnancy.

That is why there is this nice hype promoting the pill.

Sorry, it doesn’t jive…with the awful side effects of CAUSING other cancers, blod clots, death, infertility. Yes…it is VERY bad for you. In no other way do we take “medicine” to make the body stop working the way it is supposed to.

If one charts Creighton NFP, one can find symptoms of issues that could be major things later…but you find them so early that it can be taken care of. Much better way to “prevent cancer”
 
This is hype that is given by the pill companies that do not explain WHY.

THe pill makes the body think its pregnant.

Chances for cancer go down after pregnancy.

That is why there is this nice hype promoting the pill.

Sorry, it doesn’t jive…with the awful side effects of CAUSING other cancers, blod clots, death, infertility. Yes…it is VERY bad for you. In no other way do we take “medicine” to make the body stop working the way it is supposed to.

If one charts Creighton NFP, one can find symptoms of issues that could be major things later…but you find them so early that it can be taken care of. Much better way to “prevent cancer”
The theory is the number of ovulations is reduced, which reduces the risk. The risk of endometrial cancer is reduced also.

I do agree about the marketing.
 
No. Its as simple as following the advice of the Church. Your assertions have not been in line with church teaching.
Show me an official Church statement that it is ok to kill the unborn for therapeutic reasons… or just referencing hormonal birth control in an official Church statement would suffice.

We are without excuse because God’s law is written on our hearts. I don’t have to convince you of the truth of my assertions… you already know in your heart that it is wrong to kill the unborn for reasons previously stated… for ANY reason.
 
These other people are on the apologists forum, and back what I have been saying.
I am corresponding with a very knowledgeable CA apologist who currently takes your position. The problem is, your stance is not in line with Church teaching and Sacred Tradition. I will provide more on that later, but lets look at a few things here:

The birth control we are talking about was designed at the outset as an implantation inhibitor(ie abortifacient). The developing research that was done with these chemicals was done with regard to this mechanism.

If you have marital relations knowing that you are taking a medicine that is designed to prevent new life often by aborting it, then you are in sin. If you are using barrier methods or spermicidal methods to avoid pregnancy for legitimate medical needs, then you are not doing anything to kill off that which the Lord is creating.

If you are getting sterilized(ex hysterectomy) for therapeutic reasons, all further marital relations will be rendered unfruitful… is this sinful? No… if the reason for the surgery is sufficiently grave, and the other moral restrictions are in line(ex. motive for procedure), then the woman is not in sin as far as we can tell.

If, however, you take a drug that was designed to kill God’s creation because your prodeath physician thought it the best therapy(rarely is this the case) then you are taking part in the killing of the unborn.

I cannot see this one standing up in court… at the great white throne judgement…

‘I had a tendency to get acne, so I took birth control pills, which is the reason that these little ones had to die.’

‘My periods were infrequent, so I took birth control to ensure regularity, which is the reason that these little ones had to die.’

‘I get ovarian cysts which are often painful, so I took birth control in the hopes of curing them, which is the reason that these little ones had to die.’

The above are the ‘most legitimate’ non-contraceptive uses these days, and the conditions are not sufficiently grave to warrant the killing of God’s little ones. Neither is birth control the only(or even most appropriate) therapy available for the treatment of these conditions.

We are in an age when abortifacients don’t cause one to give pause in any way. There is no longer any scandal or shock value when one thinks of a drug that flushes new lives down the toilet. Physicians and patients alike will opt for ‘therapy’ with these medications very often for various reasons, but none sufficiently grave to warrant death of the unborn.

We have to be VERY careful to ensure that the patient is sexually inactive, etc. when we give Accutane, a drug that could render the little child without eyes, limbs, etc. What would you say if the children came out in this manner due to this acne treatment. Would we cite legitimate treatment and move on just to see millions of such children born this way? NO! The shock value would be there, because the sin of chemically mutilating God’s creation would be manifest before our eyes. We would most certainly start seeking other acne remedies, or ensure that we kill them before we have to actually look them in the face(ie use birth control which is one of the requirements now).

50 years ago, the thalidomide scare came about. This drug which helped pregnant mothers sleep and combated morning sickness, was the cause of very dramatic harm to the unborn. “From 1956 to 1962, approximately 10,000 children were born with severe malformities, including phocomelia(no limbs), because their mothers had taken thalidomide during pregnancy.[1] In 1962, in reaction to the tragedy, the United States Congress enacted laws requiring tests for safety during pregnancy before a drug can receive approval for sale in the U.S.[2] Other countries enacted similar legislation, and thalidomide was not prescribed or sold for decades.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide

WHY ON EARTH would we stop the use of thalidomide in women who are of childbearing age? Just because their children would be born without limbs is not a sufficient reason. It’s not like we are killing them or anything… Of course I am mad to talk like this.

The reason we would stop the use of this drug in women of childbearing age, is because it is a whole lot more personal when you actually have to FACE THE PERSON and ask their forgiveness for taking a drug that rendered them mutilated.

NOW, if the mother took this drug to help with sleep, with the physician and patient knowing full well the risks to mutilating this child, would you say that this was sin?

Please answer above question, and all other questions will be answered for us concerning this debate.
 
I am corresponding with a very knowledgeable CA apologist who currently takes your position. The problem is, your stance is not in line with Church teaching and Sacred Tradition. I will provide more on that later, but lets look at a few things here:
I have provided you with 4 people on the apologist forum, including a priest and apologists who back my statements. Lady D I has also given a statement from a priest. You have not proven that my statements are not in line with the church nor that the priests and apologists are in error. The evidence so far points the other way.

The Church does not give an official stance on every single aspect of life. There is much that there is no official position on. (I am not knowledgeable enough to know if there does exist an official position for this topic besides HV/EV) However, lack of an official statement does not mean that the church’s official position is instead the opposite view, when that has no statement backing it up. Tell me this: you state that the church has given no official view, yet you dismiss the sources I give from respected leaders of the church, and you state that your view is right because it is how you feel. What I feel and what the leaders that I posted feel, are different than yours, so what is to say that your “feelings” are right over the declarations of authorities in the Church, and other’s feelings?

I don’t understand your view that HV gives a different impression than what was given by Michelle Arnold
The birth control we are talking about was designed at the outset as an implantation inhibitor(ie abortifacient). The developing research that was done with these chemicals was done with regard to this mechanism.
The pill is NOT being used as an abortifacient. It is being used to treat a medical condition. I have asked you several times to look into the principle of double effect, yet you have not responded to those requests even though I have stated it is critical to understanding the Church’s position here. What is keeping you from trying to understand this principal and holding onto the idea that your feelings are correct no matter what else is given?

So I ask again: please look into double effect. Double effect states that an action must not have the direct intention of causing an evil, but, if it is an unwanted side effect of a good intention, it is morally permissible. Look at HV again. It states that therapy which impedes procreation is OK as long as the impediment itself is not the direct motive.

From apologist Michelle, as I posted earlier: “In this case, using this particular drug (“the pill”) as a treatment for endometriosis falls under the realm of moral law known as double-effect.”
If you have marital relations knowing that you are taking a medicine that is designed to prevent new life often by aborting it, then you are in sin. If you are using barrier methods or spermicidal methods to avoid pregnancy for legitimate medical needs, then you are not doing anything to kill off that which the Lord is creating.
This actually says a lot. Look, I am only here to try to give correct information and protect the well-being of the OP and others who may be reading this thread. But the quote above states that there is much concerning sexuality/reproduction that you still need to research when it comes to Church teachings. I am not trying to put you down. I have been around Catholic teaching for a long time, and there is a huge amount that needs to be researched about Catholic teaching before being able to take an athoratative stance like you have. I by no means am perfect nor am I done with my studies, and if I am in error, I do request that I be corrected, but some of the basics of the Church include listening to authorities of the Church and submitting, even if your views differ. Now, barrier methods are specifically condemned by the Church as they are only used to frustrate the marital act and not be open to life. The only exception to the barrier method that I am aware of is for sperm collection for testing, where a hole is poked in the condom so that the marital act will still be open to life, while collecting the sample. Barrier methods, spermicide, masturbation, pulling out, and chemicals for the purpose of contraception are not considered licit for any Catholic to participate in. If a couple has sufficient reason to avoid pregnancy, such as for medical reasons, then they are to use NFP. (There is controversy among Catholics about using condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS but that is another thread in itself)

Again, the intention of taking the medication is not to prevent new life, it is to treat an ailment.
Continued below
 
Continued from above
If you are getting sterilized(ex hysterectomy) for therapeutic reasons, all further marital relations will be rendered unfruitful… is this sinful? No… if the reason for the surgery is sufficiently grave, and the other moral restrictions are in line(ex. motive for procedure), then the woman is not in sin as far as we can tell.
If, however, you take a drug that was designed to kill God’s creation because your prodeath physician thought it the best therapy(rarely is this the case) then you are taking part in the killing of the unborn.
Yet again, the drug is not being taken for the purpose of killing a child, it is being taken for the primary purpose of treating a condition. The designer’s initial intent for the medication really has nothing to do with what it is used for in the future. You of all people know the myriad of drugs that have incredible off label uses. Look a Wellbutrin, for example. Should it never be prescribed for smoking cessation merely because it was initially created and marketed for depression? Of course not.
I cannot see this one standing up in court… at the great white throne judgement…
Simply because you are not understanding it yet does not mean that your harsh judgments of the OP and Pira were warranted.
‘I had a tendency to get acne, so I took birth control pills, which is the reason that these little ones had to die.’
‘My periods were infrequent, so I took birth control to ensure regularity, which is the reason that these little ones had to die.’
‘I get ovarian cysts which are often painful, so I took birth control in the hopes of curing them, which is the reason that these little ones had to die.’
Come on, this is far from what is really being argued. Mocking this issue contributes nothing.
The above are the ‘most legitimate’ non-contraceptive uses these days, and the conditions are not sufficiently grave to warrant the killing of God’s little ones. Neither is birth control the only(or even most appropriate) therapy available for the treatment of these conditions.
You are not in a position to make this judgment. Again, look towards the authorities of the Church, who state the opposite of you. Don’t you think there may be a problem with your understanding if authorities of the Church are specifically and directly contradicting what you are saying? Swallow your pride, open your eyes, and look towards the truth instead of looking towards what you feel. Always seek that additional information and understanding. It is so critical…
We are in an age when abortifacients don’t cause one to give pause in any way. There is no longer any scandal or shock value when one thinks of a drug that flushes new lives down the toilet. Physicians and patients alike will opt for ‘therapy’ with these medications very often for various reasons, but none sufficiently grave to warrant death of the unborn.
The Church has always been highly sensitive about abortion. Look at the given definition of abortion earlier from PJP II
Pope John Paul II in E.V.:
I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being.
Look at Michelle Arnold’s continuation of this “Thus, abortion must be willed as an end (i.e., one intends to kill a child), or used as a means to obtain some other end (i.e., one kills a child in an abortion to further some other goal), to be abortion.” Therefore, using the pill for therapy IS NOT ABORTION.
We have to be VERY careful to ensure that the patient is sexually inactive, etc.
Not according to the Church authorities, of which I have presented many to you.
(Accutane/drugs)
Knowing possible risks and side effects are important for patients to be fully aware of, of course. Thalidomide side effects were unknown when it was so widely distributed, so I don’t see how it relates to this discussion. You keep wanting to say that taking BCP to treat a disorder is a sin, but you need to prove that using Church resources, not using your feelings.
The reason we would stop the use of this drug in women of childbearing age, is because it is a whole lot more personal when you actually have to FACE THE PERSON and ask their forgiveness for taking a drug that rendered them mutilated.
Thalidomide was initially for specifically pregnant women, so of course this drug will no longer be marketed for already pregnant women. The drug has off label uses. I don’t see evidence where this drug is denied to women of childbearing age.
NOW, if the mother took this drug to help with sleep, with the physician and patient knowing full well the risks to mutilating this child, would you say that this was sin?
See above. The woman is already pregnant, and this drug is now known to cause high risk to her already developing baby. If it is a sin or not is definitely not for me to judge.
Please answer above question, and all other questions will be answered for us concerning this debate.
I look forward to reading your answer to double effect and Church authorities that are in opposition to your statements, given that Catholics are supposed to submit to Church authority. I am heartened that you have initiated a discussion with an apologist here, and hope it will be fruitful for you.
 
These other people are on the apologists forum, and back what I have been saying.
Aleii,

I want to say that, while I respect the apologists that have come and gone over the ages and have enriched our understanding of truth, you and I are apologists in our own right. I offer an ‘apology’ or a defense of my beliefs as a Christian and you as a former Catholic and current agnostic offer your agnostic apologetics. While we may not do this as a living, we potentially have as much or perhaps more, in some cases, to offer to contemporary apologetics. I, for instance, cannot speak to as wide a range of topics that a professional apologist could, but when it comes to medical ethics I have a particular advantage. You, with the passion you may have for your beliefs, may have an advantage in arguments related to your belief structure regarding God and the ability to know truth.

I say this to say that, apart from official Church statements, our opinions are just that…opinions. I happen to have the Church on my side, however, in the issue we are currently debating. The absolutely crystal clear position on abortion and the crystal clear position on the sanctity of life extends into this debate and covers all of my assertions much better than any person’s opinion ever will.

So, with the infinite importance that this issue has, let’s push on. Any issues out there with this idea that using abortifacient drugs is wrong regardless of motives behind its use?
 
Thalidomide was initially for specifically pregnant women, so of course this drug will no longer be marketed for already pregnant women. The drug has off label uses. I don’t see evidence where this drug is denied to women of childbearing age.
"For Women: You will be required to use two reliable forms of birth control beginning 4 weeks before you start taking thalidomide and ending 4 weeks after you stop taking it. Any woman who has not had a hysterectomy or has not been in menopause for at least 24 months in a row must agree in writing to use birth control before, during, and after taking thalidomide. Even women with fertility problems are required to use birth control while taking this medication. You must also have a negative pregnancy test within 24 hours before you start thalidomide treatment. While you are taking thalidomide, you will need to have a pregnancy test weekly during the first month of treatment, and then every 4 weeks thereafter.

Stop using thalidomide and call your doctor at once if you quit using birth control, if your period is late, or if you think you might be pregnant."

Above quote taken from:
drugs.com/mtm/thalidomide.html

So I’d like to spend a bit more time on the thalidomide/accutane analogy. WHY is it that women of childbearing age are denied the medication in the majority of cases? Why is it that those women who DO get a physician to write for them must provide absolute assurance that they will not become pregnant… to provide this in writing… in CA it is demanded by law.

Is it just because these malformations may occur to the unborn as an unintended result of the legitimate therapy for relatively innocuous indications? YES!(this is starting to sound familiar) But why are we so concerned about taking medications for legitimate medical uses that may harm or kill the fetus in these two cases? Why is it that once we find a medication that kills the child before we actually have to see it or face it… why is it that it’s OK then?

I will tell you the answer. It is because these drugs allow the damage to be manifested before our eyes. It is because, instead of killing the unborn before we have an opportunity to see it, these little images of God are often brought into the world with paddle shaped tiny limbs… with unspeakable malformations that sometimes cause death shortly after birth…

Let’s examine this analogy a bit more, because I believe that therein lies the answer to our questions. Keep in mind that we are dealing with the ‘little images of God’ here.
 
Aleii,

I want to say that, while I respect the apologists that have come and gone over the ages and have enriched our understanding of truth, you and I are apologists in our own right. I offer an ‘apology’ or a defense of my beliefs as a Christian and you as a former Catholic and current agnostic offer your agnostic apologetics. While we may not do this as a living, we potentially have as much or perhaps more, in some cases, to offer to contemporary apologetics. I, for instance, cannot speak to as wide a range of topics that a professional apologist could, but when it comes to medical ethics I have a particular advantage. You, with the passion you may have for your beliefs, may have an advantage in arguments related to your belief structure regarding God and the ability to know truth.

I say this to say that, apart from official Church statements, our opinions are just that…opinions. I happen to have the Church on my side, however, in the issue we are currently debating. The absolutely crystal clear position on abortion and the crystal clear position on the sanctity of life extends into this debate and covers all of my assertions much better than any person’s opinion ever will.

So, with the infinite importance that this issue has, let’s push on. Any issues out there with this idea that using abortifacient drugs is wrong regardless of motives behind its use?
The resources that were given to you also included statements from priests, not just apologists. Why do you just as easily dismiss their statements? I don’t see anything I have written in this thread to relate to agnosticism, merely relating to the Catholic teachings I’ve had over a vast majority of my life (agnostic for about 1 year now, though, that really doesn’t alter how I explain Catholic position in this thread). Before you state you have the Church on your side you need something to back that up besides your feelings. And as I have said, I am a fellow licensed health care professional.

Before we continue…
Your last statement about motives makes me wonder… have you looked into double effect?
 
This actually says a lot… But the quote above states that there is much concerning sexuality/reproduction that you still need to research when it comes to Church teachings. I am not trying to put you down. …Now, barrier methods are specifically condemned by the Church as they are only used to frustrate the marital act and not be open to life.
Yes, of course I am aware of barrier methods being forbidden… but with HV 15 they can be interpreted to be Church sanctioned by the consciencious physician:

“the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those
therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a
foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there
from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for
any motive whatsoever” (HV 15).

In the case of a patient who has been unsuccessful in using NFP and is deemed too high of a risk for future pregnancies, barrier methods can be legitimately used until a surgical sterilization or hysterectomy can be performed. All in the interest of protecting the patient of course… the idea being that abortive means to protect the patient is not warranted.
 
Yes, of course I am aware of barrier methods being forbidden… but with HV 15 they can be interpreted to be Church sanctioned by the consciencious physician:

“the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those
therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a
foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there
from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for
any motive whatsoever” (HV 15).

In the case of a patient who has been unsuccessful in using NFP and is deemed too high of a risk for future pregnancies, barrier methods can be legitimately used until a surgical sterilization or hysterectomy can be performed. All in the interest of protecting the patient of course… the idea being that abortive means to protect the patient is not warranted.
Contraception is intrinsically evil and never licit. A couple may use abstinence (periodic or permanent).
 
Actually, the pill is very effective at preventing ovarian cancer, which is known as “the silent killer” because it often shows no symptoms until it is too late. The pill have many “cons” associated as well, but to say it is bad for you health is, imo, not exactly true.
Wow, that is really sad that you have bought into what the drug companies have told you. Do you have any research to back this up, because all that I have read shows the opposite. It shows that the pill has more cons than pros. The link between the pill and breast cancer has been noted as well as other types of cancer, not to mention its use to make the woman’s body think that she is pregnant causing abortions. I fail to see how putting that chemical into a woman’s body is “good.”
 
Yes, of course I am aware of barrier methods being forbidden… but with HV 15 they can be interpreted to be Church sanctioned by the consciencious physician:

“the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those
therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a
foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there
from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for
any motive whatsoever” (HV 15).

In the case of a patient who has been unsuccessful in using NFP and is deemed too high of a risk for future pregnancies, barrier methods can be legitimately used until a surgical sterilization or hysterectomy can be performed. All in the interest of protecting the patient of course… the idea being that abortive means to protect the patient is not warranted.
Absolutely, completely and 100% false. Where did you get the support for the statment that is bolded above? I do not ever recall in my vast studies of TOTB and HV, even the Catechism that the Church would ever say that barrier methods are okay to use or even to become sterililzed. I thnk that you have misinterpreted the HV 15 quoted by you above. Where do you get in that statement that it is okay to use a condom or any other barrier method? Actually according to the following you can see that Pope Paul VI said the exact opposite when he stated that using contraception would lead to an increase in sterilization which is counter to the Church’s teachings. Mind, you there are times that a hysterectomy has to be performed for medical reasons that cannot be avoided, but if you are told that you are at high risk if you are to get pregnant, then you use NFP to AVOID a pregnancy. It can be done as has been noted by several posters on this forum.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3249100&postcount=4

Our bodies are a gift to us from God and to think that we have power or dominion over them is false. To think that we can simply sterilize ourselves whenever we do desire is a slap in the face of God, why not spit on the other gifts that He has given to us.

The Church has always taught that sexual intercourse must be open to human life each and every time and must unite the husband and wife in a renewal of their marriage vows. Aside from that it is a sinful act. Not all that difficult to follow. To think that one can simply use a barrier method during this act is disreuptive to the plan for human sexuality given to us by God and stamped into our bodies as male and female. If the wife is a high risk pregnancy, through NFP she knows when she is fertile or if there is a chance that she could be and she does not want to get pregnant, simple solution: don’t have sex. Last time I check, no one (not one single person) has ever died from not having sex.
 
Yes, of course I am aware of barrier methods being forbidden… but with HV 15 they can be interpreted to be Church sanctioned by the consciencious physician:

“the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those
therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a
foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there
from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for
any motive whatsoever” (HV 15).

In the case of a patient who has been unsuccessful in using NFP and is deemed too high of a risk for future pregnancies, barrier methods can be legitimately used until a surgical sterilization or hysterectomy can be performed. All in the interest of protecting the patient of course… the idea being that abortive means to protect the patient is not warranted.
No, as Lady D I says, barrier methods can not be interpreted with HV 15 to be legit. Barrier methods are not being used to cure a disease, this is the difference. The sole purpose is to prevent pregnancy, which is only valid with use of (grave reason)NFP or abstinence. Sterilization is not permitted either to prevent a high risk pregnancy. This is strict Catholic teaching, which is very important to be aware of. Sex must be open to life even with a high risk pregnancy that could result. The potential for a high risk pregnancy is not a disease that you can treat with barrier method.

The exceptions again are: sperm collection using a condom with a hole, having a spouse which uses contraception that you firmly object to (See Fr. Serpa’s earlier link), and using BCP for medical purposes.

Please answer my repeated question: have you looked into the principle of double effect
 
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