Birth of clean town: Ave Maria

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Wow, I just read those links for myself. . . that’s really too bad that so many people were left hanging with no job when Ave Maria College pulled up stakes and moved to Florida. The buildings are empty, the windows boarded up. . . seems like an incredibly bad example of stewardship. 😦
 
childofmary1143 said:
I think we need a Bible lesson about poor and poverty. First off Jesus said “Blessed are the poor IN SPIRIT” not the poor in poverty.

Poverty is a sin. To want to promote poverty is shameful. Sure there are rich people who hoard and make money off the working class but then there is the poor who are just as materialistic as rich because they want it.
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If poverty is a sin, then Francis of Assisi is no Saint - if anything, he will be frying in Hell for leading so many people astray by his wicked doctrine of evangelical poverty. This will be news to a lot of Christians - it condemns Padre Pio, & every sainted or beatified or venerable person who was poor “for the sake of the kingdom of God” : down to Hell they all go !​

Come to think of it - doesn’t “poverty is a sin” condemn the example of Christ ? Down He goes with them - presumably to fry in the hottest part of Hell’s kitchen.

As the Gospel says, “I tell you solemnly, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a poor man to enter the kingdom of heaven”.

Or a little earlier: “Go, take from the poor, receive all that you do not have, and follow Me, for your reward is great upon earth”

And then there is the “preferential option for the rich”, of which the Church has said so much in recent years. :cool:
 
MrS said:
whichavemaria.blogspot.com/2006/08/pope-pius-xi-slams-monaghan.html
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You mean because Monaghan wants to establish a Catholic community free from secular union control that he is a blasphemer. This Torgo hack seems to have gone down there specifically to destroy a dream. Can you help me understand why anything in this link is destructive of Monaghan’s character. I don’t know Monaghan from Adam but I do know a loser when I read one and Torgo is a loser, if this is the best shot he has.

CDL
 
Tonks40 said:
$250,000???

Wow. That’s a bargain.

(from a wannabe homeowner in California.)😦
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Our house here in Maryland is an 85 year old bungalow and would go for $280,000 (maybe even top the $300,000 mark if we spiced it up a bit more). I guess if those are new homes, then it’s a bargain.

Now, bungalows in Michigan (With full 2nd floors and a 1/2 3rd floor, which is one more than this), I’ve seen go for $120,000.
 
GregoryPalamas said:
You mean because Monaghan wants to establish a Catholic community free from secular union control that he is a blasphemer. This Torgo hack seems to have gone down there specifically to destroy a dream. Can you help me understand why anything in this link is destructive of Monaghan’s character. I don’t know Monaghan from Adam but I do know a loser when I read one and Torgo is a loser, if this is the best shot he has.

CDL
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OTOH, if Monaghan is going to say what he is quoted as saying here:​

  • The battles between Mr. Monaghan and the Ave Maria faculties have become vitriolic. Some have even tried to unionize. When I ask if he sees a contradiction in trying to block such a move, even though unionization is supported by the Catholic Church, he says, “I think that [the church] hierarchy doesn’t know as much about those things as they do about their theology.”
Is he for real?

First: note how he characterizes PAPAL ENCYCLICALS: “the hierarchy” What a pompous jackass.

His logic is no different than those who justify abortion and contraception by the reasoning that “celibate priests know nothing about sex, therefore, contraception and abortion are OK.” Cafeteria catholicism.
[my emphasis]
  • then all one can say is: “Welcome to the Cafeteria, Tom”.
At least the Cafeteria is likely to have some decent pizza.
 
Visionaries always get whacked by the losers of any society. Truth be told, why don’t we pray for the man and his vision and for the people who work with him and for him? Let us pray that Ave Maria become a place where Catholics can serve the Lord. Let us stop whining.

Unless someone has a lot more against him than what has been shown here I don’t think they have anything serious on him. He may fail. He may be a tyrant. So what?

CDL
 
I don’t think much of unions today either. I don’t see anything particularly holy in them. If he can’t complete the work without unions he probably won’t be able to do it with them either. A person doesn’t have to be a Democrat to be a visionary. In fact given recent history…O never mind.

CDL
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

If poverty is a sin, then Francis of Assisi is no Saint - if anything, he will be frying in Hell for leading so many people astray by his wicked doctrine of evangelical poverty. This will be news to a lot of Christians - it condemns Padre Pio, & every sainted or beatified or venerable person who was poor “for the sake of the kingdom of God” : down to Hell they all go !​

Come to think of it - doesn’t “poverty is a sin” condemn the example of Christ ? Down He goes with them - presumably to fry in the hottest part of Hell’s kitchen.

As the Gospel says, “I tell you solemnly, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a poor man to enter the kingdom of heaven”.

Or a little earlier: “Go, take from the poor, receive all that you do not have, and follow Me, for your reward is great upon earth”

And then there is the “preferential option for the rich”, of which the Church has said so much in recent years. :cool:
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I notice that all the people you cite are Religious (St. Francis, Padre Pio etc.) Religious also take the Vow of Celibacy. Should families take that Vow of Celibacy? Oops then they would be breaking their Sacramental Obligation of Marriage to be open to Life.

Gee what to do? Oh I know. Let’s provide a relevant comparison.

Its threads like that that reminds me of what Michaelangelo said to Pope Julius “Why do you bring me fools to judge my work”
 
geezerbob said:
The product is priced according to how much it costs to produce and according to competition, not how many people from which area can afford to buy it. Obviously, if it is so expensive that no one can afford it, it will flop.
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You have a half truth here, not the whole truth. The price is set by what the market will bear. Why are homes in Ave Maria expensive, because Tom Monaghan is attempting to attract a higher income clientele. Now, of course, there are many ways that housing could be built for low and moderate income people, such as those who live in Immokalee. For example, they could build apartment buildings, they could allow mobile homes, etc. If Tom wants to be a Florida real estate developer and cater to the wealthy, that is his choice. I just don’t see why that deserves any more praise than any other real estate developer in Florida.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
You have a half truth here, not the whole truth. The price is set by what the market will bear. Why are homes in Ave Maria expensive, because Tom Monaghan is attempting to attract a higher income clientele. Now, of course, there are many ways that housing could be built for low and moderate income people, such as those who live in Immokalee. For example, they could build apartment buildings, they could allow mobile homes, etc. If Tom wants to be a Florida real estate developer and cater to the wealthy, that is his choice. I just don’t see why that deserves any more praise than any other real estate developer in Florida.
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Thank you for making my point here, especially:
If Tom wants to be a Florida real estate developer and cater to the wealthy, that is his choice. I just don’t see why that deserves any more praise than any other real estate developer in Florida
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If Mr. Monoghan was making a Catholic (universal) community, he should not be concerned so much with what the market will bear but whether or not all, or at the very least, most Catholics would be able to buy a house there. By selling houses there in the mid-range and up he no longer has a Catholic (universal) community.
 
Typically, developers of a mixed area will put in the middle and upper level houses and sell them before starting the lower ones. Don’t know if this is what he has in mind for Ave Maria. The thought is that if the smaller homes are put in first, it will hurt the sales of the larger ones.

Another thing to consider is the infrastructure costs. Twenty or so years ago, the cost was running about a hundred grand an acre and I’m sure it’s much higher than that now. It’s much easier to recoup these costs on more expensive homes. If smaller homes are added later, much of the infrastructure cost has already been paid and the smaller homes can be more affordable. Again, I doubt that anyone knows if he plans to do this because such plans are usually kept under wraps until the big homes are sold.
 
Philothea53 said:
If Mr. Monoghan was making a Catholic (universal) community, he should not be concerned so much with what the market will bear but whether or not all, or at the very least, most Catholics would be able to buy a house there. By selling houses there in the mid-range and up he no longer has a Catholic (universal) community.
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Yet again - harping on the price of the house. It sounds like jealousy. Because it may not fit into your budget then it should be condemned as a horrible self-glorifying project.

Where did he say he was going to provide subsidized and affordable housing for all? In that community $250,000 is quite affordable as a starting price- as it would be many communities.

sheesh already. If one cannot afford the house, then one doesn’t get to live there. This holds true even in the community that each one of us lives in presently.

You cant afford the house, then you don’t live there. It’s no sin for Tom M’s builder to create the look and feel of the community through his building structures. That apprears to be common now in all the housing developments I’ve seen. One doesn’t build a $400,000 then a shanty next to it. New builds have a price attached to them these days as materials and labor increase.

Anyone here been shopping for new builds lately? I’ve been doing it for 2 solid years. I must look at a half dozen houses each week. Unbelievable - the pricing out there. And I live in relatively rural area with plenty of land still.

I also looked at several houses in the Naples, Bonita Springs, Fort Meyers area recently. Yowzer. But in line.

It’s not for everyone. No community can be all that. So let the project fail if the houses don’t get sold due to prices.
 
My husband just asked me if I was praying for more Catholic neighbors.

Everytime someone moves out a Catholic family moves in!

:extrahappy:
 
jrabs said:
Yet again - harping on the price of the house. It sounds like jealousy. Because it may not fit into your budget then it should be condemned as a horrible self-glorifying project.
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Actually, I could afford a house there because I live in the northeast, and so many of his houses are well within my price range. The fatal mistake you are making is in assuming that he is selling houses for their lowest possible price and that he cannot possible offer anything cheaper. The more realistic possibility is that he is acting like a profit maximizing developer. Now, there is nothing sinful about that, but also nothing meritorious either.
 
jrabs said:
Yet again - harping on the price of the house. It sounds like jealousy. Because it may not fit into your budget then it should be condemned as a horrible self-glorifying project.

Where did he say he was going to provide subsidized and affordable housing for all? In that community $250,000 is quite affordable as a starting price- as it would be many communities.

sheesh already. If one cannot afford the house, then one doesn’t get to live there. This holds true even in the community that each one of us lives in presently.

You cant afford the house, then you don’t live there. It’s no sin for Tom M’s builder to create the look and feel of the community through his building structures. That apprears to be common now in all the housing developments I’ve seen. One doesn’t build a $400,000 then a shanty next to it. New builds have a price attached to them these days as materials and labor increase.

Anyone here been shopping for new builds lately? I’ve been doing it for 2 solid years. I must look at a half dozen houses each week. Unbelievable - the pricing out there. And I live in relatively rural area with plenty of land still.

I also looked at several houses in the Naples, Bonita Springs, Fort Meyers area recently. Yowzer. But in line.

It’s not for everyone. No community can be all that. So let the project fail if the houses don’t get sold due to prices.
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Sheesh already - if he limits who can move there, it isn’t a Catholic (universal) community. I’m not at all jealous. I am extremely happy in my life and where I live. I haven’t been posting about this because I want to move to Florida - yuck! - but because I don’t like that Mr. Monoghan is calling this a Catholic community. When I first heard of this project I thought it was great! But as it has been built I see that he really meant it to be a those-who-have-more-than-others-and-attend-the-Catholic Church-and-play-golf-together community. If Mr. Monaghan wants to build a new subdivision and make lots of money, fine. We live in a for-profit society. I see nothing at all wrong with that. I do however disagree that Mr. Monaghan should be allowed to get away with calling this a Catholic community when he excludes any Catholic because he has priced the homes out of reach. As soon as he limited the ability of people to live there, it is no longer Catholic.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Actually, I could afford a house there because I live in the northeast, and so many of his houses are well within my price range. The fatal mistake you are making is in assuming that he is selling houses for their lowest possible price and that he cannot possible offer anything cheaper. The more realistic possibility is that he is acting like a profit maximizing developer. Now, there is nothing sinful about that, but also nothing meritorious either.
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Nope I’m not making that fatal mistake. I bet only a few houses will be in that range. I’ve seen the area - most houses will be well well well beyond I bet. People here are in disbelief that the houses are even being planned at starting at $250,000. Big deal.

But so what? The mistake you are making is harping on the price as if affluent Americans do not deserve a Catholic setting.

It is no sin to be affluent. At the same time, many of those people who may eventually buy into this community if it ever sees light, may need the environment and strength from their community more then we do.

Affluence does not bring faith. These people may need that faith boost.

Let’s stop harping - those who see fit to live there will. The rest of us - it’s not our concern then.
 
There have been many examples of what I see as moral relativism in the support of Mr. Monaghan in this thread. Apparently my definition of Catholic is different than his.

“Whatever you do to the least of these, that you do to me.”
 
More power to him. But unless he can and will control those that purchase homes, work etc to only Catholics then it is not a Catholic community.
 
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