Birth of clean town: Ave Maria

[Pier]

You have a half truth here, not the whole truth. The price is set by what the market will bear. Why are homes in Ave Maria expensive, because Tom Monaghan is attempting to attract a higher income clientele. Now, of course, there are many ways that housing could be built for low and moderate income people, such as those who live in Immokalee. For example, they could build apartment buildings, they could allow mobile homes, etc. If Tom wants to be a Florida real estate developer and cater to the wealthy, that is his choice. I just don’t see why that deserves any more praise than any other real estate developer in Florida.

Are mobile homes still allowed in the state of Florida?

 

[childofmary1143]

Actually, I could afford a house there because I live in the northeast, and so many of his houses are well within my price range. The fatal mistake you are making is in assuming that he is selling houses for their lowest possible price and that he cannot possible offer anything cheaper. The more realistic possibility is that he is acting like a profit maximizing developer. Now, there is nothing sinful about that, but also nothing meritorious either.

jrabs NEVER assumed that he is selling the homes at the lowest possible price. jrabs has always maintained that the price is a reasonable middle class price.

 

[a_priori]

Let’s stop harping - those who see fit to live there will. The rest of us - it’s not our concern then.

I agree. We should give the guy a break. You would think he was Larry Flynt or something.

It has always amazed me that a person puts himself at considerable financial risk and works like a dog for years to build something of value and then he is criticized by people who would never put forth the same effort. At least Tom has some values and wants to do something positive.

People who do well should always give back because God has commanded it. But the negativity many people show toward successful people is suffocating sometimes.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Nope I’m not making that fatal mistake. I bet only a few houses will be in that range. I’ve seen the area - most houses will be well well well beyond I bet. People here are in disbelief that the houses are even being planned at starting at $250,000. Big deal.

But so what? The mistake you are making is harping on the price as if affluent Americans do not deserve a Catholic setting.

It is no sin to be affluent. At the same time, many of those people who may eventually buy into this community if it ever sees light, may need the environment and strength from their community more then we do.

Affluence does not bring faith. These people may need that faith boost.

Let’s stop harping - those who see fit to live there will. The rest of us - it’s not our concern then.

Certainly, it is no sin to be affluent. But, if someone is trying to create a Catholic community, I think a reasonable question is what should a Catholic community look like? Since the Church teaches us that we should have a preferential option for the poor, it would seem rather strange that a community be developed with little emphasis on the housing needs of low income people.

While affluent people may need a faith boost, I am not sure affluent people with no faith are going to be the ones moving into this town.

Here is a question I have: Does anybody know why Tom Monaghan does not want to seek permission of the local bishop for the church he is building and the university? Is there a good reason for this? I am curious.

Here is a link to that story:

bonitanews.com/news/2007/aug/25/catholics_not_all_ready_embrace_new_ave_maria/?latest

 

[geezerbob]

Certainly, it is no sin to be affluent. But, if someone is trying to create a Catholic community, I think a reasonable question is what should a Catholic community look like? Since the Church teaches us that we should have a preferential option for the poor, it would seem rather strange that a community be developed with little emphasis on the housing needs of low income people.

While affluent people may need a faith boost, I am not sure affluent people with no faith are going to be the ones moving into this town.

Here is a question I have: Does anybody know why Tom Monaghan does not want to seek permission of the local bishop for the church he is building and the university? Is there a good reason for this? I am curious.

Here is a link to that story:

bonitanews.com/news/2007/aug/25/catholics_not_all_ready_embrace_new_ave_maria/?latest

I saw nothing in that article to indicate that he did not want the approval of the bishop. I got the opposite impression, that he did desire approval so the oratory would be a church. It appears he is going ahead with his plans and hoping that the approval will come later.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I saw nothing in that article to indicate that he did not want the approval of the bishop. I got the opposite impression, that he did desire approval so the oratory would be a church. It appears he is going ahead with his plans and hoping that the approval will come later.

It would seem that if one were to construct both an oratory and a university, one would seek approval of the Bishop before construction and sinking lots of money into the venture. Why the delay, is there any reasonable explanation for that?

 

[geezerbob]

It would seem that if one were to construct both an oratory and a university, one would seek approval of the Bishop before construction and sinking lots of money into the venture. Why the delay, is there any reasonable explanation for that?

According to the newspaper article, the delay is on the part of the bishop, who is apparently waiting to see what develops before he does anything. If this is the case, the delay would appear unreasonable. But then, the bishop may know something that the rest of us don’t.

 

[MrS]

the bishop is publicly revealing what insiders have known for a long while. The bishop sees what a mess TM and Nike Healy are, and WON"T ENDORSE their vision of Catholicism:

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2…/? breaking_news

Here’s the pertinent part of the article (see the quote at the end):

Without diocesan approval, Ave Maria’s oratory cannot be called a “church” and therefore Catholic sacraments like baptisms, weddings and funerals cannot be performed without special dispensation from the bishop.

Ave Maria University officials, at least as far back as 2004, have made clear their wish for the oratory to become a church.

“We’re just patiently waiting,” University President Nick Healy said.

Furthermore, Ave Maria cannot even call itself a “Catholic university” — as it does on its Web site — without diocesan approval.

“It’s not a Catholic university,” Diocese spokeswoman Adela Gonzales White said. “It’s a private university in the Catholic tradition.”

Some seem to see the real issue… it is a private university in the Monaghan tradition.

 

[childofmary1143]

Furthermore, Ave Maria cannot even call itself a “Catholic university” — as it does on its Web site — without diocesan approval.

“It’s not a Catholic university,” Diocese spokeswoman Adela Gonzales White said. “It’s a private university in the Catholic tradition.”

Not to change the subject but if that is true then can’t other Dioceses where there is a “Catholic” University filled with Catholic Dissenters say that its not a Catholic University?

 

[geezerbob]

I’m pretty neutral on the subjects of Ave Maria and and TM, but Mr. S’s disdain for both is quite evident. I am curious about one thing, though, Mr. S. Is your statement that the bishop will not approved anything connected with Ave Maria based on something that has been released or is that your opinion?

 

[Peer]

We have had to live under secularist rules for decades.

If a Catholic town is going to be created, it is only sensible and legal for that town to be run like a Catholic one. Amish have theirs.

And I’m not even Catholic!

 

[Harpazo]

I had a chance to visit the town a few days ago. It’s fairly upscale, but I really liked it. It appears to look like a European city with all the little acoutraments. Of course I could never afford to live there after college. I do plan on going to the University itself though. From what I’ve read in the academic catalogue, it’s a very orthodox Catholic school. I was impressed at the courses, although there aren’t a ton of options to choose from as the University is still building itself up. The school is very faithful to the Magisterium and has on its Board of Trustees people like Fr. Pacwa and Fr. Benedict Groeschel. Their Ecclesial Advisors include Cardinal Arinze, Christop Cardinal Schonborn et al. I’d like to think that such men wouldn’t be supporting a University and town for that matter that was blatantly out to get people.

I’m NOT impressed with the overall lack of charity on this thread and blatant attacks at Monaghan. The man is trying his hardest, from what I can tell, to put together an orthodox Catholic University and town. Let’s face it Notre Dame isn’t what it used to be. When are we going to start giving Monaghan the benefit of the doubt? If he fails, he fails. If Ave Maria prospers, then it prospers. Instead of whining and moaning and groaning about Monaghan? Why not pray for Ave Maria and the students going there to furthur their Catholic education?

In Pax Christi
Andrew

 

[MrS]

I’m pretty neutral on the subjects of Ave Maria and and TM, but Mr. S’s disdain for both is quite evident. I am curious about one thing, though, Mr. S. Is your statement that the bishop will not approved anything connected with Ave Maria based on something that has been released or is that your opinion?

Actually, g’bob, that was an article and interview that appeared in the Naple News. They were quoting the representative of the diocese.

My distain, as you correctly referred to how I feel, has occured because of the history of Monaghan.

He was a local boy made good. However, his long list of broken promises (none to me) just keeps growing. Some, like the group at www.avewatch.org have taken it a step farther. They just keep a record of the events. Everything they track is verified. It is sad.

Yes, I can understand those who say “cut him some slack”. That would be the normal response for any degree of charity. But who is owed the charity that is truth?

Monaghan has been confronted numerous times with the concerns, the questions, and eventually the anger of those whom he has hurt and mislead, and lied to. But he continues to shield himself with his money, and his attitude that what he is doing is from God. Is some of it good? Hard to say when you see the fruits of his work.

.

 

[OriginalJS]

I’m very angry with Mr. Monaghan about this town. He made a ‘Catholic’ town where only those who could afford a 'starter house at $250,000 could live. I’m a good Catholic. But I can’t afford $250,000 for a house. Why doesn’t he want me for a neighbor?

Maybe you should consider this a bit. This is a new town, and new construction is costly. I know $250,000 is more than many can afford, but I’m not sure you can build an adequately sized, well-constructed, house on a decent lot in Florida for much less.

 

[geezerbob]

I’m guessing that construction costs in the Naples area are similar to or slightly higher than those here. In my area, tract builders are offering a bare bones basic starter home on a postage stamp lot for around $120k. Add a two car garage, a few additional cable and electrical outlets, and you can easily hit $150k for a 1,200 - 1,500 house. The only thing cheaper are those dinky little duplexes they now call patio homes which are smaller, have no garages or space to put one, and an even smaller lot.

Unless costs there are significantly different from here, Ave Maria could include a section of $150-200k homes if they wanted to. I still say it’s a marketing ploy and that the smaller houses will probably come later.

 

[thann]

Ave Maria is offering townhomes for “high $100,000’s.” Click here for a link to Pulte’s site (one of the builders) and a description of their various offerings at Ave Maria.

New starts here in SE Michigan are well above this price. Ave Maria is all new starts, because there was nothing (and I mean a whole lotta nothing) where Ave Maria is now.

'thann

 

[MrS]

You are right, there is not a whole lot there,… except for discontent and incompetence in administration.

Lest you think it is more of MrS’s distain… I offer the following from a recently (today) www.avewatch.org ;

+ Alumni: Even from a strictly business and economic vantage point, Tom Monaghan is a fool if he thinks that he can sustain start-up educational enterprises by adopting policies and behaviors that alienate alumni. As of today, the petition to reinstate the recently-booted Law School faculty has over 270 signatures! That is, a majority of alumni from Ave Maria School of Law are in open opposition to the governance of Tom Monaghan and his dean, Bernard Dobranski. This is stunning

and

+ Diocese of Venice on AMU’s “church”: After three years, the Diocese still does not recognize the AMU oratory as a Catholic “church”; as such, the oratory cannot house basic sacraments like baptism without special permission. Even though Ave Maria residents will technically belong to Our Lady of Guadalupe in Immokalee - and will subsequently need their pastoral services for sacraments - don’t count on Ave Maria tithes going to Immokalee. According to the Ave Maria Grammar and Preparatory School’s “Family Handbook 2007-2008”, children whose families “regularly attend and contribute to the Oratory Church in Ave Maria” are given precedence for admission to AMGP over children whose families “are registered in a Catholic parish who personally and financially contribute to their parish”.

and

+ Catholic media: As recent as Saturday, Greg Erlandson commented again on Ave Maria in the media. This is significant because Erlandson is the President and Publisher of “Our Sunday Visitor” (OSV), one of the most popular Catholic publications in the country considered by many to be "the American bishop’s newspaper…

and

+ “Traditionalists”: What should have been Tom Monaghan’s strongest base has morphed into his strongest skeptics. Staunchly orthodox bloggers like Fr. Z, Angelqueen, and Fumare, have nailed Monaghan on everything from healing services to mass directives. In a Catholic blogosphere generally marked by fearful silence

 

[MrS]

The list goes on. Ignore it and continue to let Tom Monaghan ruin lives and futures while he continues to do what he really believes is right, honorable, and God’s plan.

There I cannot argue. Everything that occurs is know to God, and is part of the whole plan.

We just need to pray more, and discern.

.