Bishop: ‘I would hate if people voted No for bigoted, nasty, bullying reasons’

[zz912]

Thats correct, and from the articles Ive read, all of what you listed (with the exception of adultery) is on the table and up for consideration at this coming Synod. All under the guise of pastoral care. But seriously, I find it disturbing for the RCC (who is claimed to have never changed for 2000 years) to have high ranking officials say they need to decrease in ideology.

We’ve had bad bishops before, and we’ll have bad bishops in the future. Arius thought he could change Church doctrine too. They will all be proven wrong, and the Church and her uncorrupted teaching will remain.

 

[SonOfMan]

I have explained several ways the Church has changed in other threads, from praying with other faiths, suicide, all human beings must be subjected to the Roman Pontiff, Baptism, Salvation outside the Church, and many other things. One can play word games and claim this and that wasnt infallibly declared, or this and that is just a discipline. But Im not interested in word games, the RCC that we have become familiar with is not the same as the Church in ancient times for very obvious reasons (Lots of “developments” and “deeper understandings” have taken place since then, although Id think the ones closest to Jesus would have had the deepest understanding).

Just out of curiosity, why Orthodoxy? I too have thought that if everything self destructs and one day I decide to be a Christian, I would be looking into the Orthodox Church, or perhaps I’d even consider Judaism.

 

[Lion_IRC]

It’s EITHER a fundamental teaching OR it’s open to a greater and more nuanced understanding. You can’t have it both ways.

If it’s open to further understanding that means you haven’t UNDERSTOOD it in the first place - hence you were wrong to have previously claimed it as “fundamental”.

Opponents of the Church’s (former) teaching on SSM aren’t all going to start cheering if the New Church of ‘gradualism’ evolves towards more ‘pastoral’ acceptance and blind-eyed tolerance.

All they are going to do is say catholics/Christians were wrong the whole time!

And then they are going to roll over, and go back to sleep, and enjoy their guilt-free Sunday morning sleep-in as per usual.

"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

 

[SonOfMan]

All they are going to do is say catholics/Christians were wrong the whole time!

And then they are going to roll over, and go back to sleep, and enjoy their guilt-free Sunday morning sleep-in as per usual.

I predict the exact same thing.

 

[meltzerboy]

I have explained several ways the Church has changed in other threads, from praying with other faiths, suicide, all human beings must be subjected to the Roman Pontiff, Baptism, Salvation outside the Church, and many other things. One can play word games and claim this and that wasnt infallibly declared, or this and that is just a discipline. But Im not interested in word games, the RCC that we have become familiar with is not the same as the Church in ancient times for very obvious reasons (Lots of “developments” and “deeper understandings” have taken place since then, although Id think the ones closest to Jesus would have had the deepest understanding).

Just out of curiosity, why Orthodoxy? I too have thought that if everything self destructs and one day I decide to be a Christian, I would be looking into the Orthodox Church, or perhaps I’d even consider Judaism.

As long as you mentioned Judaism, there is much discussion in that religion as well regarding the changes, based on re-interpretations of the Law, that have occurred throughout the centuries.

 

[Havard]

Hey Jharek, I think you missed my earlier question. How have people’s experiences/relationships with their parish priests been over the years? Specifically in the areas that you see the most decline in attendance. I’m curious about the regular pastoral experience.

 

[Havard]

Ugh. So sorry to hear that.

I need to pray for Ireland more.

 

[HB11]

This reminds me of the same kind of mixed message we got from some bishops in 2008 about voting for the VERY pro-abortion candidate, Barack Obama. We were told it was ok to vote for him and overlook his pro-choice views, because of his wonderful economic plan that would take care of the poor. When the bishops ignore preaching Gospel, in favor of preaching social justice, there will be trouble and more trouble.

 

[pepipop]

Hi Jharek, I live in South Dublin, not an area I thought myself would have such a high turnout. My parents live in Cork and they’re always amazed at numbers at mass, they’re always packed, during day masses or on Sundays.

I agree, my nephews, nieces don’t attend church and are ‘pro-SSM’, all easily programmed through the system to see this issue solely as being compassionate and caring to gay people… they would know absolutely nothing about the long term issues, in relation to marriage or children, they view the referendum solely as being kind to gay people and treating them equally!

 

[pepipop]

Haha my brother’s thoughts entirely, who has strayed away from the church. Needless to say, he can’t explain why there is such a global move towards secularism with most governments trying to quash Christianity. If religion was ‘so’ important in controlling the people, how have China grown to be one of the most prosperous nations on earth…yada, yada

 

[_Abyssinia]

Hi Jharek, I live in South Dublin, not an area I thought myself would have such a high turnout. My parents live in Cork and they’re always amazed at numbers at mass, they’re always packed, during day masses or on Sundays.

I agree, my nephews, nieces don’t attend church and are ‘pro-SSM’, all easily programmed through the system to see this issues as being compassionate and caring to gay people… they would know absolutely nothing about the long term issues, in relation to marriage or children - they view the referendum solely on being kind to gay people and treating them equally!

But this also presents an opportunity. If people were super informed on the arguments and rejected them, that would be one thing, but I question whether many supporters of same-sex marriage have really engaged with the arguments, really assessing ‘what is marriage?’ This could be a long battle for the truth of marriage to prevail, but we should not give up regardless of court rulings or referendums.

 

[pepipop]

But this also presents an opportunity. If people were super informed on the arguments and rejected them, that would be one thing, but I question whether many supporters of same-sex marriage have really engaged with the arguments, really assessing ‘what is marriage?’ This could be a long battle for the truth of marriage to prevail, but we should not give up regardless of court rulings or referendums.

I completely agree, there was absolutely nothing in relation to why NO voters were actually voting – well minimal and then they were called Nazi’s by a pyschologist, homophobic, hateful etc… all bolstering the youngsters that this was not right. It was a complete ‘touchy-feely’ PR sham - to show how ‘compassionate’ the Irish are in voting YES and giving equal rights to gay people.

 

[Tigg]

I predict the exact same thing.

One might ask from this discussion then, “what’s all the fuss about?” If the development/change/fuller understanding (please pick the term you most prefer,) actually happens, will Catholics* merely shrug their shoulders and go on as usual stating the Church has spoken?

*Catholics defined as those who truly understood and practiced their faith before the deification of man and advancing cultural pressures, and prior to academia setting us all straight.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

But this also presents an opportunity. If people were super informed on the arguments and rejected them, that would be one thing, but I question whether many supporters of same-sex marriage have really engaged with the arguments, really assessing ‘what is marriage?’ This could be a long battle for the truth of marriage to prevail, but we should not give up regardless of court rulings or referendums.

It is a long battle also because Catholic arguments, even when heard, have so far not been effective.

 

[josie_L]

I think it depends on the child. If for instance they had spent yrs as orphans or in foster care, they might say I just want someone to tell me I’m home. Number, gender might not be such an issue to them. They would just want a loving, safe home. Same if a child had a mom and a dad and one or the other was abusive towards them. They might very well say I want the 1 who is not and treats me with care, tenderness and love. Or one poster brought up a child having what many consider to be ideal. Both a mom and a dad but they murder their child. I see nothing ideal about that even though they had the “ideal” of 2 parents of the opposite sex. Or for kids who never knew one of their parents due for instance to death, what they are familiar with in their own family situation is a single parent home and might well be most comfortable with that.

No, that depends on supply and demand and/or other circumstances, however, any child, given the opportunity to choose amongst the options mentioned will always choose having a mother and father who love them as opposed to just a father who loves them or a just a mother who loves them or two mommies and/or two daddies.

p.s. We know that ideally this is the best option, and the child itself if given the chance to have such an option would no doubt realize this.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

…any child, given the opportunity to choose amongst the options mentioned will always choose having a mother and father who love them as opposed to just a father who loves them or a just a mother who loves them or two mommies and/or two daddies.

A child who has been thoroughly indoctrinated by the secular magisterium will not only show no preference for a mother/father pair, he may well turn them in for expressing a dissenting view. There is ample historical precedence for much worse.

 

[SonOfMan]

One might ask from this discussion then, “what’s all the fuss about?” If the development/change/fuller understanding (please pick the term you most prefer,) actually happens, will Catholics* merely shrug their shoulders and go on as usual stating the Church has spoken?

*Catholics defined as those who truly understood and practiced their faith before the deification of man and advancing cultural pressures, and prior to academia setting us all straight.

I think its very messy and a whole range of possibilities exist if a genuine change were to occur.

Those few, faithful, practicing Catholics may be severely shaken, feel betrayed, and may drop off.

Some might turn a blind eye, make excuses, and pretend all is well.

Then there are those who might split off and continue on in a smaller church where only current/previous Church thinking is allowed.

And then there are those outside the faith, who will never enter the Church and use the justifications that Lion IRC mentioned. Perhaps a few outsiders may join the Church, but for shallow reasons, namely that the Church accomodates them and not the other way around.

 

[Isca]

I am getting very depressed about the Irish situation and the misunderstanding around the whole issue. It’s not about gay people, it’s about marriage. Any dissent is seen as homophobic.

I am not homophobic (two of my best friends are a gay male couple) and I am offended at being labelled as such.

 

[josie_L]

A child who has been thoroughly indoctrinated by the secular magisterium will not only show no preference for a mother/father pair, he may well turn them in for expressing a dissenting view. There is ample historical precedence for much worse.

We have not reached that point. . . . yet.

 

[Lion_IRC]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I am getting very depressed about the Irish situation and the misunderstanding around the whole issue. It’s not about gay people, it’s about marriage. Any dissent is seen as homophobic.

I am not homophobic (two of my best friends are a gay male couple) and I am offended at being labelled as such.

I hear ya Isca

It’s just a cheap and nasty debating tactic - poisoning the well.

“…don’t listen to them, their arguments don’t count, they are homophobes, bigots, haters, etc.”

BTW - If I were you, I would refrain from using a reference to your gay best friends in any sentence which starts with …I’m not a homophobe.