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redbaron162
Guest
I agree, though I understand where the Father is coming from, often the only way to get through to some people is through a shocking display.
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jaimeleglise
Guest
If the baby looked too good, he would not have gotten his point across. I am sure he got a proper burial and a funeral Mass.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Then take a photo of the baby before he was prepared for funeral.
I just want to share. My son was born 12 weeks premature. At a certain point he only weighed about 2 pounds, because he was on a ventilator, could not be fed orally and was hydrated by IV.
For a very long time I could not watch TV programs that featured NICU’s or images of preemies.
Moms lose babies that look like the baby Fr. Pavone displayed. Still born babies are often lovingly dressed and wrapped in a blanket for mom to see them.
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TCEL
Guest
Yes. Emmet Till’s mother had an open-casket and invited the media to come.
I don’t think what Fr. Pavone did was appropriate. That said, I do think that fighting against such horrendous evil day-in and day-out is very draining, and that people who dedicate their lives to this are in the Devil’s cross-hairs. It’s one thing to pray occasionally in front of the abortion clinic, it’s another thing to deal with such utter disdain for life day-in and day-out. The difficult thing about fighting such callous evil is to not grow calloused ourselves, especially when the world doesn’t listen.
It can’t be denied that many holy people have done bizarre things.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Fr. Pavone has his entire life wrapped around the evils of abortion, and I think I can feel his thoughts and emotions, but I certainly do not support his actions. At some point fighting against something you totally believe in can turn into a certain sense of false pride. I do not want to judge Fr. Pavone, but from what I have seen from his homilies, let me just say that he appeared overly zealous.
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Maol_Mhuire
Guest
If you put a statue of Buddha on the altar it’s wrong. If you put the corpse of a dead child on the altar it’s wrong. The altar is a sacred object with a sacred use. Upon it is accomplished the mysteries of our redemption and the application of those mysteries to our souls.
I do not object to using graphic imagery in the war against abortion. I object strenuously to the profanation of sacred things.
“For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?”
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Cid
Guest
I think that when it comes to treating a dead body with dignity there is no greater act than that of laying a corpse on a Catholic altar. I think back to 9/11 and the placing of the dead body of Father Judge by firemen on a Catholic altar which became a symbol of the dead Priest’s selfless act of remaining with his flock in that dangerous place. Now this act by Fr Pavone may be problematic from a canon law perspective but as for treating the body with dignity Fr Pavone has shown great respect toward the body by placing it on the altar.
The problem with the Archdiocese is that by judging Fr Pavone in this matter they themselves will receive a much stricter judgement from Christ with regard to how each have conducted themselves in promoting Catholic teaching in the political arena which is clearly in much need of Christian guidance.
It is one of the unfortunate traits of our times that the hierarchy have been largely mute when it comes to articulating a clear message for the faithful with regard to political voting. Fr Pavone is giving such a message and in so doing has identified the corpse of this little one with that of Christ himself who said that when we do this (abortion) to the least of these little ones - we do it to him. So whatever about the licitness of the act from a Church perspective it is nevertheless a profound identification between this dead child and Christ himself. The shock factor associated around this video seems to stem from its religious context. However if the child could speak to us I have no doubt it would protest its own death and thank Fr Pavone for honouring its wishes.
I hope Fr Pavone does not become to disheartened by this furore. I can understand where he is coming from and his honourable intention of waking religious people from their complacency and especially the hierarchy who need to more counter-cultural because it is what Christ would want for each and everyone of us in this hopeful though terrible time in our history.
The problem with the Archdiocese is that by judging Fr Pavone in this matter they themselves will receive a much stricter judgement from Christ with regard to how each have conducted themselves in promoting Catholic teaching in the political arena which is clearly in much need of Christian guidance.
It is one of the unfortunate traits of our times that the hierarchy have been largely mute when it comes to articulating a clear message for the faithful with regard to political voting. Fr Pavone is giving such a message and in so doing has identified the corpse of this little one with that of Christ himself who said that when we do this (abortion) to the least of these little ones - we do it to him. So whatever about the licitness of the act from a Church perspective it is nevertheless a profound identification between this dead child and Christ himself. The shock factor associated around this video seems to stem from its religious context. However if the child could speak to us I have no doubt it would protest its own death and thank Fr Pavone for honouring its wishes.
I hope Fr Pavone does not become to disheartened by this furore. I can understand where he is coming from and his honourable intention of waking religious people from their complacency and especially the hierarchy who need to more counter-cultural because it is what Christ would want for each and everyone of us in this hopeful though terrible time in our history.
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Maol_Mhuire
Guest
The dignity of the altar being that on which the sacrifice of Christ is re-presented in a bloodless manner elevates it to sacred usage. Sacred meaning “set apart for divine things.” The altar exists for the accomplishment of a divine act. Putting a corpse on the altar is a profanation of the dignity of the altar. There’s a reason we genuflect to the altar even when the Blessed Sacrament is not reposed in the tabernacle.
Lastly but even more important… Father Pavone profaned an altar for the specific purpose of creating a political ad in support of a political candidate. He should and must be reprimanded his actions and we should certainly pray in reparation for this profanation.
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zz912
Guest
Exactly. All manner of abuses going on all across the country and globe. And they’ve seized on this as if they were equally offended at other abuses, abuses which are far worse.On Facebook, I was appalled by the bullying of Fr. Pavone by so called orthodox Catholics, including Catholic ‘bloggers and personalities’. It’s as if suddenly they became liturgical rigorists, when they normally they don’t raise a ruckus over other abuses.
This baby was battered, bruised and naked from the actions of the abortionist, and the inaction of Catholics and Christians. Fr. Pavone did not batter and bruise this child.
The child WAS cleaned, dressed and given a funeral mass. Fr. Pavone RESTORED the dignity to this child that was stolen from him/her by the abortionist and the inaction of Christians.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
That may very well be.
BUT, and this is a very big but- the end never justifies the means!
This was sensationalism, pure & simple, and it has no place being done at the hands of a Catholic priest, on an altar at a Catholic Church. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.
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1neophyte
Guest
You can use all the caps and mad faces you want, but you’re still completely wrong.That may very well be.
BUT, and this is a very big but- the end never justifies the means!
This was sensationalism, pure & simple, and it has no place being done at the hands of a Catholic priest, on an altar at a Catholic Church. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.
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adamhovey1988
Guest
He also violated federal law by violating the Johnson Amendment. Don’t get me wrong, people need to know the evils of abortion, but I can understand why folks are angry.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
Please explain how I am wrong. We cannot do evil, just because we think good will come out of it. This act was sensationalism, pure & simple. It was wrong and it should not be supported by anyone.
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1neophyte
Guest
I don’t have time to enumerate all the ways you are wrong, but the definition of sensationalism is “the use of exciting or shocking stories or language at the expense of accuracy, in order to provoke public interest or excitement.” There was nothing inaccurate about what he was expressing. That’s your first error. All of your other errors flow from that, but even if, in your confusion, you believe that his act was sensationalism, it’s quite a big leap from accusing him of sensationalism to saying he “did evil.” PERIOD! END OF DISCUSSION! YOU’RE WRONG!
(See, I can do that too.)
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
Here is the definition of sensationalism.
This is exactly what Fr. Pavone wanted. It was wrong. And nothing you or anyone else will ever say will change my mind.
It is stunts like this that hurt the pro-life cause.
This is exactly what Fr. Pavone wanted. It was wrong. And nothing you or anyone else will ever say will change my mind.
It is stunts like this that hurt the pro-life cause.
I don’t have time to enumerate all the ways you are wrong, but the definition of sensationalism is “the use of exciting or shocking stories or language at the expense of accuracy, in order to provoke public interest or excitement.” There was nothing inaccurate about what he was expressing. That’s your first error. All of your other errors flow from that, but even if, in your confusion, you believe that his act was sensationalism, it’s quite a big leap from accusing him of sensationalism to saying he “did evil.” PERIOD! END OF DISCUSSION! YOU’RE WRONG!
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therese1998
Guest
To those in a rush to accuse Fr Pavone of “going too far”, particularly before any investigation has reached its conclusion:
The reason a bruised and battered unborn baby placed on an altar is more egregious to us than the bruised and battered body of a martyr or a hero who died to save others and placed on the altar is because of the guilt we feel as part of the human race that has allowed this profanity of abortion.
What would Jesus say about Father Frank’s display? NOT what would you WANT Him to say…but based on what we know of Jesus and His relationship to “be nice, play by the social rules”, what would He say?
If we’re talking about what we won’t ever change our minds about, I won’t ever change my mind that abortion, even as horrific as it is to those of us on earth who know the Truth, it is inconceivably more horrific to Him. And while I know He grieves terribly for EACH of the 58 million lives thrown back in His face in brutal and painful fashion, He is also righteously angry. Would He object to the truth of abortion on display, even if it makes you or I feel sick or offended?
I think Father Pavone may have done evil in the eyes of some men, but I am not at all sure that he has done evil in the eyes of Our Father.
The reason a bruised and battered unborn baby placed on an altar is more egregious to us than the bruised and battered body of a martyr or a hero who died to save others and placed on the altar is because of the guilt we feel as part of the human race that has allowed this profanity of abortion.
What would Jesus say about Father Frank’s display? NOT what would you WANT Him to say…but based on what we know of Jesus and His relationship to “be nice, play by the social rules”, what would He say?
If we’re talking about what we won’t ever change our minds about, I won’t ever change my mind that abortion, even as horrific as it is to those of us on earth who know the Truth, it is inconceivably more horrific to Him. And while I know He grieves terribly for EACH of the 58 million lives thrown back in His face in brutal and painful fashion, He is also righteously angry. Would He object to the truth of abortion on display, even if it makes you or I feel sick or offended?
I think Father Pavone may have done evil in the eyes of some men, but I am not at all sure that he has done evil in the eyes of Our Father.
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1neophyte
Guest
Absolutely beautiful and totally spot on.
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Maol_Mhuire
Guest
The bodies of martyrs should not be placed on top of the altar either.
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Thursday1
Guest
He has done evil in the eyes of his Bishop, which is more than just “some men”.
“Father Frank Pavone has posted a video on his Facebook page of the body of an aborted fetus, which is against the dignity of human life and is a desecration of the altar. We believe that no one who is pro-life can exploit a human body for any reason, especially the body of a fetus.”
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therese1998
Guest
How, exactly, is an aborted fetus “against the dignity of human life” and a “desecration of the altar”? What is against the dignity of human life is the abortion, not the mangled body that remains. Remember the Lord’s example of those disciples who ate the grains of wheat on the Sabbath. It is necessary to observe rules, but the rules were made for men, not men for the rules. I see Father Pavone’s action as an anguished cry of “Look what they have done to the body of Your most innocent, Lord. Make not this suffering be in vain”. That is a far cry from desecrating the altar. To say that it is seems a form of scrupulosity, in my admittedly humble opinion.
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