Bishop Athanasius Schneider: ‘We are in the fourth great crisis of the Church’

[Tigg]

“But it is up to the conference of bishops to adapt the actions and postures described in the Order of the Roman Mass to the customs of the people.”

These norms may require some adjustment on the part of those who have been used to other practices, however the significance of unity in posture and gesture as a symbol of our unity as members of the one body of Christ should be the **governing factor **in our own actions.

Those who receive Communion may receive either in the hand or on the tongue, and the decision should be that of the individual receiving, not of the person distributing Communion. "

Oh, contradictions…do we go for unity (majority rules here) or do we each individually decide? Oh, for just a little clarity!

 

[Tigg]

In other words, been there done that and hope we never go backwards.
Jim

Purely subjective…see what a mess we’re in because, I for one, will never receive in the hand again unless it becomes mandatory! (so much for the unity as members of the one body…,)

 

[Tigg]

The Church can instruct and then it not be our preference. In fact,** obedience is purest **when we do not like something but agree anyway.

You are correct that obedience has more merit when it is the hardest, but what do we do with the conflict when individually we are convicted in our hearts by the Holy Spirit (see instructions … the decision should be that of the individual receiving, not of the person distributing Communion." ) Oh contraire!!!

I would further that and say obedience is purest when you actually have some strict rules to obey. One cannot obey an allowance because there is really nothing to obey, unless they’re considering another alternative. (And who’s to say by disregarding some of the conditions imposed on CITH, that hasn’t been violated?)

PERFECT!!

 

[drolla]

I know a good priest ( a child of Padre Pio) who pastors a church in VA who actually follows Vatican II and celebrates the Novus Ordo* ad orientum* only sacred music and gets around the whole communion issue by distributing communion thru*** intincture ***from behind the altar rail. Now the communicant can kneel or stand but MUST RECEIVE IN THE MOUTH because only a priest can distribute commuion intincture. Now no Eucharistic ministers are needed. (Thank God) The perfect legal solution.
He doesn’t care if some parishioners are put off because he serves Christ, not their opinions. It is also a teaching moment to explain why it’s important to the church, the priesthood and the laity. God Bless Father J.F.

 

[pnewton]

You are correct that obedience has more merit when it is the hardest, but what do we do with the conflict when individually we are convicted in our hearts by the Holy Spirit … Oh contraire!!!

Then of course, we follow our conscience, but then accept the consequence, which might be not receiving communion. However, I have* never* heard that anyone has ever had a conviction that they believe reception in the hand is a theological principle that they are bound in conscience by. I would find that odd. When someone finds that their conscience leads them to crazy positions, it is time to spend effort in studying Church doctrine.

 

[Tigg]

I know a good priest ( a child of Padre Pio) who pastors a church in VA who actually follows Vatican II and celebrates the Novus Ordo* ad orientum* only sacred music and gets around the whole communion issue by distributing communion thru*** intincture ***from behind the altar rail. Now the communicant can kneel or stand but MUST RECEIVE IN THE MOUTH because only a priest can distribute commuion intincture. Now no Eucharistic ministers are needed. (Thank God) The perfect legal solution.
**He doesn’t care if some parishioners are put off because he serves Christ, not their opinions. ** It is also a teaching moment to explain why it’s important to the church, the priesthood and the laity. God Bless Father J.F.

Well…I’ve learned something new because I was under the mistaken impression a validly mandated EMHC could do it as well (of course, our diocese has been doing things their own way for quite some time, now; there’s hope for us though - we have a new bishop)…could you please send this wonderful priest our way?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Purely subjective…see what a mess we’re in because, I for one, will never receive in the hand again unless it becomes mandatory! (so much for the unity as members of the one body…,)

My hope is not subjective for myself.

Also, we the Church, i.e. the faithful are not in a mess.

In fact, those who remain true to the faith are growing deeper and more faithful than in the past when we had mobs of conformist for the sake of social acceptance.

The purging of corrupt clergy and those in dissent, is the work of the Holy Spirit.

The Church will become stronger and closer to God in the process, although the cross is difficult.

Going to Mass should be done out of love for God, not because the obligation mandates with the threat of committing mortal sin.

Those with true faith don’t need to be threatened into loving Jesus and receiving Him in the Eucharist as they are called to. They do it willingly with open minds and hearts.

This is faith, not conformity for the sake of belong to a group for the ego to identify with.

Jim

 

[ProVobis]

Then of course, we follow our conscience, but then accept the consequence, which might be not receiving communion. However, I have* never* heard that anyone has ever had a conviction that they believe reception in the hand is a theological principle that they are bound in conscience by. I would find that odd. When someone finds that their conscience leads them to crazy positions, it is time to spend effort in studying Church doctrine.

The theological principle is spelled out in the conditions for receiving communion. There may be a risk to profanity, there is even a risk as to communion dropping, probably higher because the communion goes from hand to hand to mouth, rather than hand to mouth. Why is no paten used anymore in either form? I believe it shows how perfunctory and casual the whole method of receiving has become. If this is reverence, then I’m the one with the problem.

As for obedience, suppose a kid asks his father for use of the family car. The father approves but the father demands the kid gets insurance first. If the kid drives without insurance, he in fact disobeys gravely even though the father allowed him to drive the car. It seems to me we have the same principle here. One must adhere to the conditions of the CITH and if they’re violated, there is disobedience, although you are correct that we don’t pass that judgement but leave that to the bishops and priests.

 

[ProVobis]

This is faith, not conformity for the sake of belong to a group for the ego to identify with.

So there is ego on one side, and assertion of rights on the other. Did we have this in 1959?

 

[pnewton]

. One must adhere to the conditions of the CITH and if they’re violated, there is disobedience, although you are correct that we don’t pass that judgement but leave that to the bishops and priests.

I do not see where they have been violated. Everywhere I go, it seems pretty much the same, with minor variations. I have never seen a liturgical violation in the actual distribution of communion. So I would agree with you. Of course the conditions of communion in hand need to be followed. I think a good example of this would be in any diocese where this type of reception is not allowed by the bishop, or a rite in which it is not allowed. But again, while I have seen a few who say they have a right to this type of communion (mistakenly), I have never seen anyone claim it a moral obligation to receive this way.

As to reverence, while we show outwardly what we are on the inside, reverence is internal, based on the verb “revere”, which is something we feel. Now we can show reverence in actions, but actions cannot really be reverent, as an action cannot feel. A “reverent” bow, for example, does not mean that the bow feels a certain way, but that we perform the bow out of our own feelings of reverence.

Our bodies and minds are in sync enough that what we feel, we usually do, and what we do, we usually feel.

 

[Tigg]

My hope is not subjective for myself.

Also, we the Church, i.e. the faithful are not in a mess.

Jim

We are in denial if we do not recognize the global crisis of faith. There is not a unified body to help ordinary and confused Catholics sort out the conflicting statements so often expressed on matters of doctrine as the internal dispute continues within the Church. This is not about the debate between COTT and CITH. I am speaking for the bewildered whose pastors tell them in the confessional it is ok to use ABC while the Church says differently. I am speaking for those who see from annual reports that the bishops have funded organizations committed to anti-life causes, and I’m speaking about the looming precipice that is before us regarding gays who in some areas have their own Masses while they go to communion with their SS partner. Think about our shrinking numbers and parish closings and plummeting Mass attendance; think of the financial crisis and priest shortages in some areas. Think of the astonishing loss of faith as huge numbers embrace heresy or ethnic groups leave the Church for Pentecostal denominations. And finally, think of (the majority) of Catholics who no longer believe in the Real Presence.

 

[Tigg]

In fact, those who remain true to the faith are growing deeper and more faithful than in the past when we had mobs of conformist for the sake of social acceptance.

I have no idea what you mean, but I do know and understand there are conflicting camps of Catholics; the Traditionalists and non, throwing spears at each other; so much for the unity of our faith!

 

[drolla]

My dear friends, so many who receive communion in the hand are only obeying their Pastors and Bishops, there is no sin in that, it is virtue. But the sacrilege remains. In fact, many of the priests, pastors & bishops are unaware of its history and how it was foisted upon the faithful in the US. The sin is imputed to those guilty parties who instituted it without meeting the conditions set by Paul IV for its’ legitimate implementation. They pretty much thumbed their nose at the Pope and did what THEY WANTED TO DO. They also removed the altar rails to force people to stand without any permission from the Vatican to do so. (that is Freemasonry - doing what man wants and not what the Vicar of Christ wants) That is where the disobedience lies.
Now they don’t even instruct children receiving First Holy Communion that they can receive this way, nor is it ever mentioned at Mass. Older people who still want to kneel and have weak legs have no altar rail to assist them. And the Pastor’s refuse to make kneelers available. I am young enough and bold enough to kneel on the marble floors but others can’t. It is my right to receive in that way - so says the Popes and Cardinals and Prefects of Liturgical Celebration. Yet many Pastors find this disruptive and delays the Mass. What, it might take an extra 4 minutes to for the congregation to be dismissed?
Oh, they’re going to miss the some of NFL early game or the US Open.
This says a lot about who our gods really are.
Receiving in the hand has become so common, communion so casual that many people receive that aren’t even Catholic, have not gone to confession and are voting for prodeath politicians. So many Bishops and (Faithful?) have voted for wicked politicians and party lines because social justice trumps holiness and Life itself.
The Catholic Church has a lot of members but only 5% live the life of the sacraments and are 100% faithful to the Magisterium. Artificial contraception is intrinsically evil and pornography is committing adultery against God. If all Catholics had as much dedication to their faith as Fantasy Football, we’d be in a much better place.
My suggestion: It all starts with how we understand and approach the Eucharist. Start by restoring the right of to have kneelers available for those who wish to kneel. Make announcements at all parishes that receiving on the tongue is the Norm and in the Hand is an Exception but, either way is fine. All children until confirmation must communicate on the tongue while kneeling, then they can change if they want to. The picture of a priest giving communion on the tongue to the kneeling faithful is most precious. The future generation wants Beauty & Truth and the Church is obligated to give it to the. Perhaps we will be persecuted and be pushed to the catacombs again, but it will be a much smaller, purer, loving, selfless church that will then conquer the world.

Every knee shall bend and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!

 

[pnewton]

We are in denial if we do not recognize the global crisis of faith.

Then you can put me down for either being in denial, or burned out over the over use of the word “denial”. Lots of problems out there, for sure, as there has been over the last 2000 years.

 

[pnewton]

My dear friends, so many who receive communion in the hand are only obeying their Pastors and Bishops, there is no sin in that, it is virtue. But the sacrilege remains.

If that is your opinion, then you should receive according to your conscience. As a Catholic, I like to at least give some attention to the Catholic Church on this forum, where communion in the hand is **not **defined as a sacrilege.

And no, sin is not something we can define based on our opinions. No one here should try and impute sin to bishops and priests based on their own opinion. What happened to respecting the divide between laity and clergy?

Every knee shall bend and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!

That is why we bow at the name of Jesus in Mass, though in the context of Philippians 2, it applies not just to Catholics, but all, the just and the unjust, not as a command but as a fact. All **will **bow at the name of Jesus.

Who, being in very naturea] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature**(“Philippians 2 - Imitating Christ’s Humility - Bible Gateway”)] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Now what is said right before this?

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

When we divide in to partisan camps, as we are wont to do, we need to remember that our call is to protect the interests of others in a spirit of humility, not our own, even as Jesus did. This is the message of this passage, not the presence or absence of kneelers, but whether we have the humility of Jesus to put others first in this and all issues.

This has an interesting twist. If most do not kneel, then most should be seeking the needs of those that desire to kneel at communion. I would hope this is becoming less of an issue after it was clarified that all the faithful have this right. It seems I always see some kneeling every where I go.

 

[ProVobis]

I do not see where they have been violated.

Perhaps not a clear violation, but again why has the paten been eliminated when care is clearly specified? (Among other things, of course.)

1. Whatever procedure is adopted, care must be taken not to allow particles of the eucharistic bread to fall or be scattered. Care must also be taken that the communicants have clean hands and that there comportment is becoming and in keeping with the practices of the different peoples.

 

[pnewton]

That is why we bow at the name of Jesus in Mass, though in the context of Philippians 2, it applies not just to Catholics, but all, the just and the unjust, not as a command but as a fact.

I apologize for the soapbox. It is just that this is one of my favorite all time passages in the Bible and has been most of my life.

 

[pnewton]

Perhaps not a clear violation, but again why has the paten been eliminated when care is clearly specified? (Among other things, of course.)

As I said earlier ( or maybe elsewhere :hypno: ) there is more than one way to exercise care. I am really impressed with the solidity of the hosts we use. I have never seen even the smallest crumb.

 

[drolla]

Thanks Tigg,
I am at a Catholic hospital where the Nuns are on the Bus for you know who. 2 out of 3 priests here give out communion to people who go to Mass and I know they know they aren’t Catholic. When I asked a coworker that she told me she wasn’t Catholic on the subway, she said she spoke to the priest and the sisters and they said it was o.k.
When I asked Father X. he said that they are a very welcoming ministry.
oy-vay!

 

[ProVobis]

As I said earlier ( or maybe elsewhere :hypno: ) there is more than one way to exercise care.

But shouldn’t we stick to the one that’s been time-proven to reduce the risk? I’m not saying that there couldn’t be a better way, though, but just DROPPING the paten requirement doesn’t exactly signal a bona fide intention to find one.

I am really impressed

pn, it’s not like you to present this as an argument defending the elimination of the paten. Just sayin…

I have never seen even the smallest crumb.

Would you like to?

wdtprs.com/blog/2009/03/hand-in-glove-02-another-communion-in-the-hand-experiment/

For those who take such a casual approach to this, I suggest going to a local coin show and try to pick up an uncirculated coin with your hands just to look at it. Hint: they’ll probably have you thrown out.

You see, serious coin collectors know the decreasing worth of coins that have been touched. THEY can see those things.

.