Bishop Athanasius Schneider: ‘We are in the fourth great crisis of the Church’

[YoungTradCath]

Sometimes I get the feeling that certain American Catholics, who are faithful and who would read the National Catholic Register, present an attitude like this: “Teeheehee, of course the Church is growing, silly! Whips out Church statistics for Africa and Asia. Look! Teeheehe. Merrily goes to Mass with 7 kids.” **

There is a certain overconfidence I see in one group of American Catholics. They have overextended the fact that the Church will never fall. I think some people feel kind of okay with American Catholicism going down the dumps. Well, I don’t think people actively think that, but the way they talk would lead a reasonable person to believe that it’s fine if the Church in America and Europe dies off as long as increases in Asia and Africa offset our losses. It’s like, well, so what if the Church is growing in Africa and Asia? That is a good thing, but… what conclusions are you trying to draw that somehow implicate us or absolve us from something in America and Europe?

Universality does not mean American Catholics should be satisfied with the number of Catholics in Africa increasing. Rather, I daresay universality should compel us to pick up the slack in the West and start trying a little harder.

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**Note that above I am presenting a caricature. Don’t go get offended if you have 7 kids and read the National Catholic Register. I think that’s wonderful. I’m not saying you’re a bad person, don’t worry. My scenario is non-specific and is used to illustrate a principle, not implicate you as some kind of closet secularist. I read the Register, too.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

That’s just it. How do you get people to preach the Gospel if they don’t know what it is? Even if they go to Mass, many probably don’t have a clue as to what goes on, except that they have to go.

I don’t have statistics or studies, but my impression is that once upon a time people went to Mass because they were obligated or it was expected of them. I don’t know of anyone today who does that. The ones who got nothing from Mass except fulfilling an obligation have stopped going because they don’t care. So you’re left with the ones who do care. And who need a level of education and evangelization, but who basically believe the tenets of the faith. And – like the apostles of old, who weren’t always the most educated or faithful – they (WE!) are the ones who need to spread the faith.

 

[KathleenGee]

I have to make a public confession, already spoke to a priest about it, and he said it was already happening.

I saw people receiving communion in the hand in Europe. It was the practicum in the missions. So I followed suit.

When I came home, I had profile in my parish as they had partially supported me and the work…in Seattle.

Anyway, I was going up and turned to tell someone that we received in the hand. She immediately told me to receive on the hand, pressuring me and I was right before the priest. I was a know nothing and put out my hand and received. In two weeks the whole parish was doing it and it went into the north end. Yes. me.

Well the priest told me and I read again recently, that the American bishops had essentially forced Pope Paul VI’s hand to give a special dispensation to the American Catholics, I don’t know what year, though.

As I said with the rise of Satanism and cults in our country, the lack of reverance or belief in the Eucharist by Catholics who still receive any way – which is a sacrilege…I do believe the Bishop is right. When it comes to faith, we are in God’s eternal moment at the reception of the Eucharist.

And at the time of the error of Arianism, I read some where that 90% of the bishops believed Christ was of different substance than the Father, even the pope at that time somewhat agreeing with it but not definitively. But the laity knew in faith that the Lord was one, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Council of Nicea corrected this error, and was the final revelation of Jesus Christ…given to us by the Church, the Nicene Creed.

But the issue treating women like that receiving the Eucharist…read that one recently as well, and pastorally speaking, as this was a practice, and not a doctrine against women as inferior and thus contradict Scripture, we have to see that as isolated in the history of the Church at Mass.

I think the right word is that people have come to encounter the Lord commonly. I mistyped and said uncommonly. We demonstrate little wholesome respect thinking some times, He takes us as we are. I also think people should wear their best on Sunday’s to receive Him to give Him His full honor and respect due God.

 

[pnewton]

Sometimes I get the feeling that certain American Catholics, who are faithful and who would read the National Catholic Register, present an attitude like this: “Teeheehee, of course the Church is growing, silly! Whips out Church statistics for Africa and Asia. Look! Teeheehe. Merrily goes to Mass with 7 kids.” **

There is no need for that sort of characterization.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Really, then why are the young priests coming up looked to as more orthodox, as has been noted here? Doctrine is not being taught? We have had some wonderful encyclicals in the last few decades, as well as a great theologian in St. John Paul II. His Theology of the Body alone stands as testimony that sound doctrine is being taught.

Um, because they are? AFAIK it’s much more difficult to enter seminary today than it was even 25 years ago.

I don’t think there’s a lack of doctrinal orthodoxy. I just think there’s proportionally only a little bit of it in the larger Catholic culture in America.

And what the Pope does can hardly be considered a reliable barometer of what is happening in parishes! Unfortunately that is the case.

I don’t understand. Are you saying we’re on the cusp of some sort of renaissance of Catholic belief in the West? I don’t believe that, not at all. It hasn’t been demonstrated. In fact, everything being demonstrated is 180 degrees the opposite in the larger culture. I think the quality of seminarians today is great, both based off interactions with them and what bishops and vocations directors will say.

 

[YoungTradCath]

There is no need for that sort of characterization.

I’m making a point, it disconcerts me. I’m not trying to be any certain kind of way, it’s just how it looks to me based on reading news stories and blog posts.

 

[pnewton]

And what the Pope does can hardly be considered a reliable barometer of what is happening in parishes! Unfortunately that is the case.

I know it is not. Never said it was. However what the Pope teaches is a perfect barometer of what the Church is teaching. Prosperous people tend to be more sinful in certain areas. Americans tend to be more sinful in certain areas. Combined, there is a major difficulty in reaching Americans today. Secular humanism, individualism, pride, hubris, materialism, lust, modernism all combine to make the American Catholic a tough nut to crack.

Now we can look at the Catholics (the attending ones) that do not believe key doctrines and focus on failure, or we can look at those doctrines they do believe, the charity they do and the progress they make and focus on the task at hand. Thanks be to God they are at least in the right hospital for their sickness.

I do not know about everyone here, but am not yet an “arrived” Catholic. There have been serious doctrines I have not been able to believe and understand for a long time. I would bet most here have something the Catholic Church teaches with which they struggle. Let us not look down on those that have more serious issues than we do. I would say that if one is in a parish where the teaching is lacking, then get with like minded individuals and volunteer to teach. We have what we believe in black and white.

 

[glendab]

For those of you in this thread that have wondered if the “crisis in the Church” the good Bishop speaks of is real: PROOF OF THIS CAN BE FOUND IN THE LONG LINES FOR THE EUCHRIST BUT THE NEARLY NON-EXISTENT LINES FOR CONFESSION!!!

The sense of sin in any form, mortal or venial is just about completely lost by most folks these days if you ask me and this is the proof. It isn’t just about reception in the hand or mouth. The Bishop chose his battle ground well on that point, but a multitude of things are afflicting the Church. Most folks feel a sense of entitlement to the Eucharist but just about insulted if you start talking about sins. When was the last time you actually heard Hell and it’s reality even mentioned in a Homily? Blind eyes see nothing and for those who wish to remain asleep, happy dozing. But when push comes to shove, don’t be too surprised. It will get ugly before it gets better.

Glenda

 

[pnewton]

For those of you in this thread that have wondered if the “crisis in the Church” the good Bishop speaks of is real: PROOF OF THIS CAN BE FOUND IN THE LONG LINES FOR THE EUCHRIST BUT THE NEARLY NON-EXISTENT LINES FOR CONFESSION!!!

No need for font screaming. It does not fix a mistake. What you call “proof” is really evidence, not proof. One need not confess venial sins before reception of the Eucharist.

I am wondering though (from you old time Catholics) forty or fifty years ago, did priests also do much of their confession by appointment?

 

[ishii]

I do not know about everyone here, but am not yet an “arrived” Catholic. There have been serious doctrines I have not been able to believe and understand for a long time. I would bet most here have something the Catholic Church teaches with which they struggle. Let us not look down on those that have more serious issues than we do. I would say that if one is in a parish where the teaching is lacking, then get with like minded individuals and volunteer to teach. We have what we believe in black and white.

That makes sense. I agree. I would also add that if, for example, one doesn’t like the music at church, then one could join the choir and try to be a positive influence. Its okay to struggle with understanding the Church teaching. But we have to be obedient. I don’t know anyone who has achieved perfection in that regard.

Ishii

 

[Sirach2]

No need for font screaming. It does not fix a mistake. What you call “proof” is really evidence, not proof. One need not confess venial sins before reception of the Eucharist.

That’s true, pnewton. In every mass during the penitential rite, all venial sins are forgiven without the requirement of receiving sacramental confession.

 

[Denise1957]

When was the last time you actually heard Hell and it’s reality even mentioned in a Homily? Blind eyes see nothing and for those who wish to remain asleep, happy dozing. But when push comes to shove, don’t be too surprised. It will get ugly before it gets better.

Glenda

You are correct here. The reality of sin and Hell are rarely mentioned anymore, or in the last several decades. And, since Catholics in the pews are not used to hearing about these realities, they can become upset when they do actually hear about them in homilies by priests. I attended a parish, for awhile, where this actually happened. The poor priest! all he did was to uphold Church teaching regarding sin, and he did so in a thoughtful manner, but some parishioners became very upset by what he said.

So the priests are kind of stuck, and in a bind with this. If they mention sin (other than the sin of being uncharitable) they risk the wrath of the parishioners. I have sympathy for the priests in this situation.

I could be wrong, but it would seem that before the Council, there may have been too much of an emphasis on sin and Hell, but then after the Council (or thereabouts) it swung in the far opposite direction, with the emphasis being been placed, nowadays, instead, on God’s mercy, rather than justice, as if we are automatically forgiven for everything without going to confession. But…what need would there be for mercy, if there were no such thing as justice?

My hope is that there will one day (hopefully soon) be a proper balance between justice and mercy, and that this will be preached from the pulpits so that all of the Faithful will hear and understand. But we need to have sympathy and patience, too, for those who don’t really “get it” yet.

 

[Seamus_L]

I think that those who believe we’re heading into a glorious Spring time for the Church, are a bit put off by Bishop Schneider’s comments.

 

[McCall1981]

Really, then why are the young priests coming up looked to as more orthodox, as has been noted here? Doctrine is not being taught? We have had some wonderful encyclicals in the last few decades, as well as a great theologian in St. John Paul II. His Theology of the Body alone stands as testimony that sound doctrine is being taught.

As far as the laiety, we have more than half of Catholics not just dissenting on homosexual “marriage”, abortion, contraception, etc, they are proudly dissenting and openly working to change teaching. I would be floored if anyone could honestly consider this not a severe crisis.

As for the clergy/hierarchy, I would agree that there has been some improvement compared to the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, but its relative improvement, things aren’t quite as bad as they were, but I’d say we are still in a very serious crisis.

 

[McCall1981]

I think that those who believe we’re heading into a glorious Spring time for the Church, are a bit put off by Bishop Schneider’s comments.

Oh come on, just look around you, Springtime is blooming! After all, vocations and religious orders are booming, liturgical reverence is the norm, theres no dissenting clergy, the vast majority of Catholics assent to all Church teachings, are well catechized, and attend mass and confession regularly… oh, wait

 

[FollowChrist34]

You are correct here. The reality of sin and Hell are rarely mentioned anymore, or in the last several decades. And, since Catholics in the pews are not used to hearing about these realities, they can become upset when they do actually hear about them in homilies by priests. I attended a parish, for awhile, where this actually happened. The poor priest! all he did was to uphold Church teaching regarding sin, and he did so in a thoughtful manner, but some parishioners became very upset by what he said.

So the priests are kind of stuck, and in a bind with this. If they mention sin (other than the sin of being uncharitable) they risk the wrath of the parishioners. I have sympathy for the priests in this situation.

I do also feel a little sorry for priests in this regard. I am one of those who think they should really stick to their guns on doctrine, teaching, etc. I hear a lot of really intellectual pep talks about love, mercy, opening ourselves up to Christ in a meaningful way and giving to others. But when they do get hardball, especially if it’s a weak area for me, I get so mad! I just glare. Once I calm down (around 24 hours later), I am usually glad it happened, and I do respect them more, especially if it was fair and true. But I don’t like criticism! I think they must face that exact same situation from every parishioner. That would be daunting.

 

[ProVobis]

One need not confess venial sins before reception of the Eucharist.

This is an oft-repeated statement but the problem with that, given the push toward communion, is that many will judge themselves into thinking any sin must be venial if everyone is receiving. I can understand why Orthodox and other groups are calling communion without confession a decadent practice.

 

[Denise1957]

I do also feel a little sorry for priests in this regard. I am one of those who think they should really stick to their guns on doctrine, teaching, etc. I hear a lot of really intellectual pep talks about love, mercy, opening ourselves up to Christ in a meaningful way and giving to others. But when they do get hardball, especially if it’s a weak area for me, I get so mad! I just glare. Once I calm down (around 24 hours later), I am usually glad it happened, and I do respect them more, especially if it was fair and true. But I don’t like criticism! I think they must face that exact same situation from every parishioner. That would be daunting.

You have very good insight here!

 

[Tigg]

And at the time of the error of Arianism, I read some where that 90% of the bishops believed Christ was of different substance than the Father, even the pope at that time somewhat agreeing with it but not definitively. **But the laity knew in faith that the Lord was one, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. ** The Council of Nicea corrected this error, and was the final revelation of Jesus Christ…given to us by the Church, the Nicene Creed.

Another good point. Yes, the laity knew and sensus fidelium keeps us from accepting error. It is important to note though, that the authentic sense of the faithful comes from adherence to Tradition, Scripture and Church teaching. They who have already accepted Divine Revelation and *live *their faith in the liturgy and sacraments will know truth or error when confronted with it.

This is a far cry from examples we might see today however in which polls are taken from a cross-section of Catholics who may or may not practice the faith. If the majority dissent, they seem to have a mistaken idea they eventually will be able to makes changes in the Church based upon majority public opinion. I wonder if the heretical ideas and false theology will become so prevalent, it will take another council to condemn them.

In conjunction with this, I found this especially interesting from the article:

Bishop Schneider observes ruefully that there are many whose views coincide with those of the pagan world who “declare themselves Catholics and even faithful to the Pope”, while “those who are faithful to the Catholic faith or those who are promoting the glory of Christ in the liturgy” are labelled extremists.

Think carefully now and know in your mind this is happening right now as traditionalists are often being marginalized. My husband and I have a little joke in which we say, “we didn’t even know we were traditionalists….we just thought we were Catholics.”

I think the right word is that people have come to encounter the Lord commonly. I mistyped and said uncommonly. We demonstrate little wholesome respect thinking some times, He takes us as we are. I also think people should wear their best on Sunday’s to receive Him to give Him His full honor and respect due God.

Isn’t this also a part of the anthropocentrism of which the bishop speaks? We have become such an arrogant society it is our comfort and our preference that is to be placated at the cost of everything else. We are casual and satisfied and musn’t be bothered in extending any effort toward something outside of ourselves.

 

[frobert]

catholicherald.co.uk/features/2014/06/06/bishop-athanasius-schneider-we-are-in-the-fourth-great-crisis-of-the-church/

**Bishop Athanasius Schneider: ‘We are in the fourth great crisis of the Church’
**

During a trip to England the Soviet-born bishop says the Church today is experiencing ‘tremendous confusion’

By SARAH ATKINSON

Liberals, collaborating with the “new paganism”, are driving the Catholic Church towards a split, according to Bishop Athanasius Schneider, the liturgical specialist who is carrying on a rearguard fight against “abuses” in the Church.

So serious are the problems, Bishop Schneider said in an interview last week, that this is the fourth great crisis in the history of the Church, comparable to the fourth-century Arian heresy in which a large part of the Church hierarchy was implicated.

If you have not heard of the Soviet-born bishop, you will. The sincere, scholarly clergyman is auxiliary bishop of the distant Archdiocese of St Mary in Astana, Kazakhstan. But this month he has received a rock star welcome from congregations across the country on his tour of England and he has embraced cyberspace to put over a trenchant, traditional defence of the Church. “Thanks be to God, the internet exists,” he said.

If there is a split there will have a side A and side B. Catholics will have to decide which side is heretical. I am not for a split as it will weaken the church but I have wondered how the previous splits were handled by the average person. Aught to be interesting to witness how it works itself out.