Bishop Carlson's Letter on the Liturgy

[8640]

I would have thought that the Bishop could enforce the liturgical guidelines at his cathedral and diocessan center. Apparently that is not the case.

I understand what you are saying but I think your blanket statement is unfair, and to be honest, quite ignorant. Anyone who has any clue of what Bishop Carlson has to deal with would not make statements like yours. In case you didn’t know, the bishop doesn’t actually run the Cathedral Parish, the rector of the Cathedral does. So, if you find problems, I would recommend contacting the Bishop rather than making judgment statements about his ability to run the diocese.

 

[Francis_Joseph]

Dear 8640, I may well be ignorant, but the statements made in my post were facts, not judgments of Bishop Carlson. I will not ever again naively assume that his directives will be followed by the priests of this diocese. I also will remember your kind response the next time I consider posting on this forum.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Dear 8640, I may well be ignorant, but the statements made in my post were facts, not judgments of Bishop Carlson. I will not ever again naively assume that his directives will be followed by the priests of this diocese. I also will remember your kind response the next time I consider posting on this forum.

Francis Joseph:

Often good Bishops tend to have the same naivete that both of us have. We at least hope that if we point out their errors, appeal to the “better angels of their natures” and give people a chance to “straighten up and fly right”, that they will (been there, done that).

Usually it takes a year to 18 months for it to sink in that about 15 % of the people are going to do whatever they’re going to do and to heck with those who don’t like them. About half of these are good and are doing the right thing IN SPITE OF Our Best, or worst, efforts. The other half are about as rotten as all get-out, and they will probably not respond to anything we do.

Bishop Carlson will find out that 75 % of the clergy and congregations won’t obey right away, that he’ll have to explain to them why they need to submit and why it’ll be better for them if they do and worse if they don’t. The other 15 % will break down like I described, and he’ll have to decide if the problems are the clergy or the congregations committed to their charge.

This is where we’ll find out if Bishop Carlson is willing to lead, and if he’ll enforce the Dictates of the Church and to punish those who wilfully disobey them.

I hope this makes more sense than the previous answer.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

I understand what you are saying but I think your blanket statement is unfair, and to be honest, quite ignorant. Anyone who has any clue of what Bishop Carlson has to deal with would not make statements like yours. In case you didn’t know, the bishop doesn’t actually run the Cathedral Parish, the rector of the Cathedral does. So, if you find problems, I would recommend contacting the Bishop rather than making judgment statements about his ability to run the diocese.

8640:

I’ve had the priviledge of meeting both my Bishop on several occasions and my Archbishop along with a couple of guest bishops as they travel through. I also had the regretable assignment of providing my Bishop the needed information to remove a very influentual rector for misconduct.

Because of that, I have some idea just how hard (at least in the TAC) it is to get priests and Congregations to submit to their diocesan Bishop. I’m sure most people here don’t have those experience, and that includes the Brother in Christ you just addressed.

Brother, the Pagan Romans didn’t shout, “Look at how those Christians argue with each other!” They shouted, “Look at how those Christians LOVE one another!”

Which do you think someone reading your reply to Francis Joseph would say?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[8640]

Dear 8640, I may well be ignorant, but the statements made in my post were facts, not judgments of Bishop Carlson. I will not ever again naively assume that his directives will be followed by the priests of this diocese. I also will remember your kind response the next time I consider posting on this forum.

Francis Joseph,

I have heard many comments (from others, not you) on this forum about your bishop, slighting him and questioning his ability to shepherd the people of the diocese because he did not go in and lop off heads on day one. I have always thought that those comments were unfair because the job the Bishop has is to shepherd everyone and attempt to bring all, even the defective cathedral rector, to Christ.

He is not one to punish but to teach. Look it up in the Catechism, all punishment is supposed to be aimed at a better understanding of one’s faults, not a striking down in retribution.

From what I know of your diocese, it has taken 35-40 years to become this corroded, do not expect it to be perfect in the two or so years since he has arrived.

My comments came from the experience of hearing nothing but negative from the people on this forum from Saginaw. Yet when I visit the diocese web page or talk to some friends I have there, I hear all the great things that the bishop is doing. For example, the youth ralley, the golf tournament for seminarians, the letter on the liturgy - how many bishops do you know did that, and instead of thanking God for it, all I see on this thread is - “we have to stand after communion.” and this isn’t even an abuse, it is something approved by the bishops and Rome and is something done in other parts of the country and world not called Saginaw.

It is easy to complain about what one doesn’t have. But when a gift like Bishop Carlson is given, I expected praise and thanksgiving. I apologize for the aggresiveness in my post, they were born out of a history of comments on this forum and not necessarily yours. Please accept my apology.

-8640

 

[8640]

8640:

I’ve had the priviledge of meeting both my Bishop on several occasions and my Archbishop along with a couple of guest bishops as they travel through. I also had the regretable assignment of providing my Bishop the needed information to remove a very influentual rector for misconduct.

Because of that, I have some idea just how hard (at least in the TAC) it is to get priests and Congregations to submit to their diocesan Bishop. I’m sure most people here don’t have those experience, and that includes the Brother in Christ you just addressed.

Brother, the Pagan Romans didn’t shout, “Look at how those Christians argue with each other!” They shouted, “Look at how those Christians LOVE one another!”

Which do you think someone reading your reply to Francis Joseph would say?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

Thank you for your words, they pointed out to me that my post was born out of frustration and should not have been directly made to Francis Joseph

 

[Patch49]

I read somewhere in this forum that the congregation CAN kneel for communion. However, our new pastor has demanded the same thing in our church. We have probably the only altar rail and kneeling cushions left in our state. We always knelt for communion. This standing eliminates the few minutes of meditation one can do while kneeling at the altar waiting for communion. I know how you must feel. It’s very discouraging.

Patch49

 

[Francis_Joseph]

8640, I certainly accept your apology. The intent of my post was to provide information on the disobedience of clergy to Bishop Carlson’s clear directives. I love and support Bishop Carlson, and I totally understand what he is up against in this diocese. There are liturgical abuses in just about every parish, including my own. However, these abuses differ in severity. When a priest attempts to consecrate invalid matter no sacrifice takes place. Christ is not there. Of course, the “eucharistic prayer” used at the cathedral is a total fabrication of the rite approved by the Church. This is light years away from a disagreement over standing versus kneeling. This is a mockery of the holy sacrifice of the Mass and a grave affront to our Lord. I have attended the cathedral three times. The first time I was new to the area, and I did not know what went on there. The second time was earlier this year when I mistakenly thought that Bishop Carlson had mandated the proper matter be used. Last night was the third, and LAST, time. It is obvious that, with the passage of time, there are fewer and fewer Catholics left in Saginaw who even are aware of such matters. I would wager that most folks around here would accept just about anything that takes place during a liturgy, no matter how offensive.

 

[JC_Nixon]

Certainly, obedience to the Bishop it optimal, however Cardinal Arinze has clarified that the intent of the GIRM was *not *to be so rigid on posture, that if those who wish to kneel or sit after receiving Holy Communion, they should be allowed to do so.

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWCLAR.HTM

 

[8640]

It is obvious that, with the passage of time, there are fewer and fewer Catholics left in Saginaw who even are aware of such matters.

I am fully aware of the situation in Saginaw, I have friends there and have been there myself many times. I would encourage you as an informed Catholic to do what you can to help your brothers and sisters in the Lord to know the truth. It is with the help of people like you that the bishop will acomplish the goal of the Holy Spirit in your diocese.

 

[frommi]

I truly find it eye opening that people are never satisifed with a bishop. When Bishop Carlson was assigned to Saginaw it was met with much joy by people who were convinced in their own minds that somehow Saginaw was this wounded flock in need of a new sheepgate.

And yet, now he’s been around for a year, and even after he puts the GIRM into effect, people are STILL nit-picking.

For heaven’s sake…

First, there is an approved recipe for ‘making your own bread’. So I’m curious how someone who didn’t even receive the Eucharist can say “it was honey baked” or whatever.

Oh…never mind…

I’m starting to think people around here haven’t read enough John Chrysostom.

 

[Lepanto]

and even after he puts the GIRM into effect, people are STILL nit-picking.

But the operative question is: how is the ***implementation ***proceeding?

First, there is an approved recipe for ‘making your own bread’.

Please post that recipie.

 

[whosebob]

Because of that, I have some idea just how hard (at least in the TAC) it is to get priests and Congregations to submit to their diocesan Bishop

JMJ + OBT​

I am glad to see are you still active in these forums, Michael. Is there any word on if there has been any progress to bring TAC into full communion with the Catholic Church?

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[frommi]

But the operative question is: how is the ***implementation ***proceeding?

Please post that recipie.

I apologize that I don’t have it, but I do know it was distributed by the Bishop and it’s the same one that is used in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

 

[Lepanto]

What is “TAC”?

thanks

 

[whosebob]

What is “TAC”?

thanks

JMJ + OBT​

“TAC” is …

The Traditional Anglican Communion

There have been serious efforts in the last few years to bring the TAC member churches into full communion with the Catholic Church, while at the same time allowing them to retain their Anglical Missal, the rites of the other Sacraments in a particular Anglican form, and married priests and possibly married bishops. The TAC churches would either be incorporated into a sui uris church, like the Eastern Catholic Churches, or there would be eastablished an “Anglican Catholic” usage of the Roman Rite, to which their churches would adhere while still being organized within the larger structure of the Roman Church.

Apparently the possibility of full communion being established was coming much nearer to realization in the months just prior to John Paul II’s death. I am curious to know if and how things have progressed since the election of Benedict XVI. The forums member “Traditional Ang” was previously a great source of information on that subject.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[MICATH]

The approved recipe for the bread being used in LA can be found at the following link:

archdiocese.la/prayer/worship/guidelines/other.html#bread

 

[Crumpy]

…
I’m starting to think people around here haven’t read enough John Chrysostom.

Well, keep tongue lashing us, or, if you have any charity, please enlighten us. Undoubtedly we haven’t read enough John Chrysostum.

 

[johnnykins]

I apologize that I don’t have it, but I do know it was distributed by the Bishop and it’s the same one that is used in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

That is certainly heartening that a bastion of orthodoxy like the Archdiocese of LA is the touchstone for the recipe for home-made Eucharistic bread. How are they doing out there with the Eucharistic dancers, kool aid chalices and rampant pederasty? BTW the canonical recipe is wheat flour and water.

 

[frommi]

Well, keep tongue lashing us, or, if you have any charity, please enlighten us. Undoubtedly we haven’t read enough John Chrysostum.

We must learn to be discerning Christians and to honor Christ in the way in which he wants to be honored. It is only right that honor given to anyone should take the form most acceptable to the recipient not to the giver. Peter thought he was honoring the Lord when he tried to stop him washing his feet, but this was far from being genuine homage. So give God the honor he asks for, that is give your money generously to the poor. God has no need of golden vessels but of golden hearts.