Bishop Carlson's Letter on the Liturgy

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frommi said:
We must learn to be discerning Christians and to honor Christ in the way in which he wants to be honored. It is only right that honor given to anyone should take the form most acceptable to the recipient not to the giver. Peter thought he was honoring the Lord when he tried to stop him washing his feet, but this was far from being genuine homage. So give God the honor he asks for, that is give your money generously to the poor. God has no need of golden vessels but of golden hearts.
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I’m going to honor him by giving some of that charitable money to the Church, so that it can afford to buy beautiful golden vessels for Christ in the Eucharist. Then the rest I will give to the poor.

Love of God is first.

Love of Neighbor is second.

Love of Self is last.
 
Andrewcarey said:
you mean you can make your own host? cool:D
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fwiw…I know of several parishes who have the first communicants make the hosts they use at their first communion liturgies…truly the ‘work of human hands’
 
You may want to check with your chancery – but my understanding is that standing, sitting, or kneeling is allowed at the discretion of the individual. A simple phone call would clear that up.
 
frommi said:
We must learn to be discerning Christians and to honor Christ in the way in which he wants to be honored. It is only right that honor given to anyone should take the form most acceptable to the recipient not to the giver. Peter thought he was honoring the Lord when he tried to stop him washing his feet, but this was far from being genuine homage. So give God the honor he asks for, that is give your money generously to the poor. God has no need of golden vessels but of golden hearts.
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Now as I recall, Judas had something to say about nard - an expensive perfume - being wasted on Christ. Judas said he wanted the nard sold and the money given to the poor. Yet Christ gainsaid that.

The point is NOT about giving money or things to anyone - it is about serving God and our fellow human beings in love. A gift given in humble service to the Glory of God - including money and beautiful trappings for His church - are acceptable to God. Yes we must serve those less well off - we must clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit the sick, imprisoned, etc., etc. But if those are done like the Pharisees - or like Judas - they are their own reward. Humbly offering the Mass according to the rubrics and approved texts serves God. Arrogantly manhandling the Mass, its texts and form, failing to proclaim the Truth, leading astray those who seek the Truth in the name of one’s own interpretation of what God wants - rather than humbly accepting what His Church says is proper - betrays something quite different from the type of heart Chrysostom spoke about.
 
prochorus said:
You may want to check with your chancery – but my understanding is that standing, sitting, or kneeling is allowed at the discretion of the individual. A simple phone call would clear that up.
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Yes this is true - one may kneel, sit, or stand. Cardinal Arinze just emphasized this during the Q&A session of his visit to metro Detroit. Bishop Carlson was sitting right next to him when he answered that question. The Cardinal said we must not become so structured so as to interfere with people’s post-communion prayer. Some want to stand, others want to kneel, others want to sit (or need to sit due to physical impairments).

Hopefully, Bishop Carlson will amend this because it is not in the GIRM (to stand after Communion), nor is it in Redemptionis Sacramentum. Perhaps it is a misunderstanding on his part.
 
Lux_et_veritas said:
Yes this is true - one may kneel, sit, or stand. Cardinal Arinze just emphasized this during the Q&A session of his visit to metro Detroit. Bishop Carlson was sitting right next to him when he answered that question. The Cardinal said we must not become so structured so as to interfere with people’s post-communion prayer. Some want to stand, others want to kneel, others want to sit (or need to sit due to physical impairments).

Hopefully, Bishop Carlson will amend this because it is not in the GIRM (to stand after Communion), nor is it in Redemptionis Sacramentum. Perhaps it is a misunderstanding on his part.
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Well, the bishop’s letter, as I understnd it, did not simply rely on the GIRM and RS but also on instructions from the USCCB - I think it will be saying a lot that Bishop Carlson promulgated something he didn’t fully understand
 
8640 said:
Well, the bishop’s letter, as I understnd it, did not simply rely on the GIRM and RS but also on instructions from the USCCB - I think it will be saying a lot that Bishop Carlson promulgated something he didn’t fully understand
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Perhaps, then , Bishop Carlson was unaware of the dubium that Cardinal George submitted on behalf of the USCCB

ewtn.org/expert/answers/kneeling.htm

Since it was submitted on behalf of the USCCB, the response is binding on the bishops in the USCCB
 
Brendan said:
Perhaps, then , Bishop Carlson was unaware of the dubium that Cardinal George submitted on behalf of the USCCB

ewtn.org/expert/answers/kneeling.htm

Since it was submitted on behalf of the USCCB, the response is binding on the bishops in the USCCB
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It sounds, then, from this that a bishop could establish a norm of standing after communion, leaving room for those that feel compelled to kneel or sit:

no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.
 
8640 said:
It sounds, then, from this that a bishop could establish a norm of standing after communion, leaving room for those that feel compelled to kneel or sit:

no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.
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and for what it’s worth, a priest in our area recently informed us that there was a clarification on our new posture (We had been instructed to stand until we had all received). The clarification is that we are permitted to kneel or sit after receiving. 😃 NOT that we must remain standing until all have received.
 
ekindermann said:
and for what it’s worth, a priest in our area recently informed us that there was a clarification on our new posture (We had been instructed to stand until we had all received). The clarification is that we are permitted to kneel or sit after receiving. 😃 NOT that we must remain standing until all have received.
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Well then, the diocese is going to have to repromulgate what they said this summer because it seems pretty clear to me.
 
Sounds like the pastors are being made aware of adaptations. ekindermann’s pastor seems to know. 8640, I encourage you to ask your pastor. If you aren’t getting straight answers from your pastor, I encourage you to ask the chancery.

For what it’s worth, I’m certain the Diocese of Saginaw is following the dubium.

The last LITURGY 101 class was Saturday. If you want a definitive answer, please ask someone in the Liturgy Office
 
prochorus said:
Sounds like the pastors are being made aware of adaptations. ekindermann’s pastor seems to know. 8640, I encourage you to ask your pastor. If you aren’t getting straight answers from your pastor, I encourage you to ask the chancery.

For what it’s worth, I’m certain the Diocese of Saginaw is following the dubium.

The last LITURGY 101 class was Saturday. If you want a definitive answer, please ask someone in the Liturgy Office
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thanks for the ideas but I do not reside in the Saginaw diocese
 
In the Diocese of Gaylord, Mi., you are instructed to stand from the beginning of communion until all have received - at least in the churches I have been in. However, one may kneel if you want to. In discussing this with church members, it was approved by the bishop. I think the rules do allow for kneeling, sitting, or standing, and the bishop does have the authority to allow what he thinks is appropriate given the guidelines of the USCCB.

I hope that is correct.
MBS1
 
Almost a year later, and we were told at Blessed Sacrament in MIdland that the posture during the consecration (currantly everyone stands with arms outstretched as if the congregation was doing the consecration too) will not change. This is supposedly ok with Bishop Carlson. So much for the Bishop’s letter. I think it’s time for us to find a new church. I like St. Brigid’s which actually follows the GIRM - the few times I’ve been there.

Frustratingly yours,
MBS1
 
MBS1 said:
Almost a year later, and we were told at Blessed Sacrament in MIdland that the posture during the consecration (currantly everyone stands with arms outstretched as if the congregation was doing the consecration too) will not change. This is supposedly ok with Bishop Carlson. So much for the Bishop’s letter. I think it’s time for us to find a new church. I like St. Brigid’s which actually follows the GIRM - the few times I’ve been there.

Frustratingly yours,
MBS1
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Seems that the more things change in Saginaw, the more they stay the same. :whistle:
 
Regarding the Advent deadline for the GIRM implementation:

I am curious if churches across the diocese properly complied with the GIRM yesterday. I couldn’t attend mass because I was down with the flu.

Two weeks ago, my church had a bulletin insert listing six or seven changes effective Dec 3rd. I don’t have the list but here’s gist of it from my memory.
  • an announcement 5 minutes before mass to observe silence.
  • The procession would include the book of the Gospels (instead of lectionary).
  • The penitential rite is to be lead by the priest (formerly lead by a lector).
  • the Gloria is to be regularly included in the mass (when appropriate for the season).
  • Bow after the consecration of bread and wine separately (apparently this is ok if no kneelers are present).
  • Bow at the creed during “by the power of the Holy Spirit…”
    There was probably another one I can’t recall. I guess I’m also wondering if other churches waited all the way until Advent to comply or did they make the appropriate changes over the course of the last six months? There doesn’t seem to be any item above that couldn’t have been done the Sunday after Bishop Carlson’s letter.
 
Karl_M said:
More info here:

saginaw.org/liturgy/girmsaginaw
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**“The Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion may come to the sanctuary (altar platform) area during the singing of the Lamb of God.)” **

General Instruction to the Roman Missal: 162: These ministers should not approach the altar before the priest has received Communion…

I think he missed the boat or call on this one.

See Commentary in the provided link…
 
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