Bishop Decree on the Our Father

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altarboi20

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Yesterday our local news did a report on our bishops decree on the Our Father.

"only the priest id given the instruction to ‘extend’ his hands. Neither deacon nor the lay faithful ate instructed to do this. No gesture is prescribed for the lay faithful in the Roman Missal; nor the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore the extending or holding of hands by the faithful should not be performed.

People are having a fit about this. Where did this costume even come from? I remember it started to pop up around 2000.

I think its great that our Bishop is finely putting is foot down on issues like this when it comes to the Mass.

What do you think? 🤷
 
Here in northern VA neither action has ever been big.

People, the lay faithful, must learn proper docility. We as Americans think docility is bad - it is not, it is what we are called to do. Docility to your Bishop as a sucessor to St Peter is appropriate. The RCC is NOT a democracy. It is a monarchy. By the way the USA is nt a democracy either - rather a representational democracy.
 
altarboi20 said:
Yesterday our local news did a report on our bishops decree on the Our Father.

"only the priest id given the instruction to ‘extend’ his hands. Neither deacon nor the lay faithful ate instructed to do this. No gesture is prescribed for the lay faithful in the Roman Missal; nor the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore the extending or holding of hands by the faithful should not be performed.

People are having a fit about this. Where did this costume even come from? I remember it started to pop up around 2000.

I think its great that our Bishop is finely putting us foot down on issues like this when it comes to the Mass.

What do you think? 🤷
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Well, I’m glad nobody ate the instructions :rotfl:. Sorry, I just couldn’t resist 😊
 
altarboi20 said:
Yesterday our local news did a report on our bishops decree on the Our Father.

"only the priest id given the instruction to ‘extend’ his hands. Neither deacon nor the lay faithful ate instructed to do this. No gesture is prescribed for the lay faithful in the Roman Missal; nor the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore the extending or holding of hands by the faithful should not be performed.

People are having a fit about this. Where did this costume even come from? I remember it started to pop up around 2000.

I think its great that our Bishop is finely putting is foot down on issues like this when it comes to the Mass.

What do you think? 🤷
Click to expand...
Can. 838 §4. Within the limits of his competence, it pertains to the diocesan bishop in the Church entrusted to him to issue liturgical norms which bind everyone.

It comes from a misinterpretation of the document ‘APOSTOLICAM ACTUOSITATEM’

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651118_apostolicam-actuositatem_en.html

🙂
 
I wasnt asking what gives him the authority I was asking where did the custom come from. Hold hands that is.
 
altarboi20 said:
Yesterday our local news did a report on our bishops decree on the Our Father.

"only the priest id given the instruction to ‘extend’ his hands. Neither deacon nor the lay faithful ate instructed to do this. No gesture is prescribed for the lay faithful in the Roman Missal; nor the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore the extending or holding of hands by the faithful should not be performed.

People are having a fit about this. Where did this costume even come from? I remember it started to pop up around 2000.

I think its great that our Bishop is finely putting is foot down on issues like this when it comes to the Mass.

What do you think? 🤷
Click to expand...
He may have issues. He forgotten part of the basic precepts since Vatican II, that the laity does have a voice, This custom came form the laity, through different movements, long before 2000.
We willl have to see if it spreads, thsi is only one ordianary and does not represent a trend.
I remember recently a bishop that was going to stop giving communion in both species. The out cry was so great, he resended his rule.
 
altarboi20 said:
I wasnt asking what gives him the authority I was asking where did the custom come from. Hold hands that is.
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I threw in the Canon ‘just because’. 🙂

As for the holding, or extending, of hands, it can be traced to the charismatic movement in the 80’s based, as I said previously, on the Vatican II document.
 
FAB said:
He may have issues. He forgotten part of the basic precepts since Vatican II, that the laity does have a voice, This custom came form the laity, through different movements, long before 2000.
We willl have to see if it spreads, thsi is only one ordianary and does not represent a trend.
I remember recently a bishop that was going to stop giving communion in both species. The out cry was so great, he resended his rule.
Click to expand...
It has become standard in East Africa! Thought it was only here! But I love it- though we don’t hold hands here, just put our palms out in the open, like a beggar position (for lack of a better example)- we extend our palms in front of us, palms open and cupped. But such a harmless development, which is reverential, surely does not amount to abuse? 🤷

I would think that this is a better way for the liturgy to change slowly over-time than the whole scale post Vatican II style of change- This is more natural and less likely to bring about the disruptions seen after changing to the Novus Ordo. After a practice has become universal enough, in the whole rite or a particular country and it has gone on for so long, and is reverential per the customs, then it can be made official.

Anyway, we all have to obey our respective Bishops. But I think that they’d be better off clamping down on the bad dressing at mass and failure to genuflect before our Lord etc. Those are the bad developments. Gestures of reverance are not- But hey, that’s just my two cents and nothing more.

Peace.
 
altarboi20 said:
Yesterday our local news did a report on our bishops decree on the Our Father.

"only the priest id given the instruction to ‘extend’ his hands. Neither deacon nor the lay faithful ate instructed to do this. No gesture is prescribed for the lay faithful in the Roman Missal; nor the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore the extending or holding of hands by the faithful should not be performed.

People are having a fit about this. Where did this costume even come from? I remember it started to pop up around 2000.

I think its great that our Bishop is finely putting is foot down on issues like this when it comes to the Mass.

What do you think? 🤷
Click to expand...
Thank goodness, this is finally clear. I just hope that people sit up and listen. I have no idea why people began extending their hands, but as you have said above it is wrong, and not only that it looks so stupid. When I go to ecumenical gatherings, it’s only my fellow Catholics who do it - and it makes me cringe.
 
altarboi20 said:
I wasnt asking what gives him the authority I was asking where did the custom come from. Hold hands that is.
Click to expand...
There have been several past threads that discussed your question, and it appears that the origins of this are murky. I have seen several different explanations. From my personal experience, I first encountered holding hands during the Our Father and at other parts of Mass around 1970, give or take a couple of years. So in my part of the world it has been around for about 40 years. My recollection is that it was occuring at Newman Center liturgies and at parish youth Masses. But others may have experienced it differently or at other times.

My question is: If a couple or a family extend/hold hands during Mass what can a bishop or priest really do about it?
 
Well if GIRM instructs that we shouldn’t then we shouldn’t.
 
altarboi20 said:
Well if GIRM instructs that we shouldn’t then we shouldn’t.
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I think the problem is, as you quote in your first post, that “no gesture is prescribed”, which has been interpreted differently by priests and bishops. Does this mean that nothing is allowed, or that it is within the authority of the local bishop to decide what is acceptable (or perhaps even leave it up to the priest and the people of that community)?

And to say that “people shouldn’t” doesn’t mean that people won’t. We already know that many priests use words and gestures that are different from what is in the GIRM, and if it is that difficult to control priests, how will laity who want to hold hands during the Our Father be stopped?
 
We have an obligation to obey our bishop on these instructions. The Mass isn’t about us its about God one hour that should be directed at him and not what makes us feel good.

The Roman Catholic Church is absolute elective monarchy, we have no opinion in the matter unless asked by our bishops.
 
altarboi20 said:
We have an obligation to obey our bishop on these instructions. The Mass isn’t about us its about God one hour that should be directed at him and not what makes us feel good.

The Roman Catholic Church is absolute elective monarchy, we have no opinion in the matter unless asked by our bishops.
Click to expand...
A question that I really want an aswer too is how come we see so much support for doing what the Bishop wants in this case, but when asked about kneeling for communion, where the USCCB proscribes that “standing” is the norm for reception in the US, we have all these people who say the Bishops is wrong?! :eek:

The GIRM, as my Canon Lawyer boss likes to remind me, is a GENERAL, Instuction of the Roman Missal, not a way to micro-manage priests & laity.
It is well within this ordinaries power to do just this, but ultimately this is HIS OPINION ONLY!!

🤷
 
altarboi20 said:
We have an obligation to obey our bishop on these instructions. The Mass isn’t about us its about God one hour that should be directed at him and not what makes us feel good.

The Roman Catholic Church is absolute elective monarchy, we have no opinion in the matter unless asked by our bishops.
Click to expand...
But what if one bishop provides instructions and another does not? What you can or cannot do is then determined by what diocese your church is in, or which diocese you are visiting. From my visits to many different parishes in several different dioceses, I have seen a wide range of liturgical practice; I doubt I have ever found two parishes that did everything exactly the same.

I would argue that the gestures and other practices that occur at Mass, whether approved or not, probably come from the heart of the participants. They are the external manifestation of an internal response, and are not done because “it makes us feel good” or because it follows a particular instruction. But even so, what is wrong with “feeling good” in church? Shouldn’t the liturgy make us feel good? I can’t imagine that the first eucharistic celebrations were sad, quiet events, but instead were probably quite joyous.

One other note: I got a chuckle out of the “absolute elective monarchy” description for the Church. That right there may be the problem, defined in three stark words. Ask yourself if Jesus ever described the Realm of God or how we should relate to others in those terms. A good place to start may be Mark 10.
 
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The papacy should not be viewed as an absolute monarchy but as a reference point for the entire Roman Catholic Church
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, one of Pope John Paul II’s closest aides said in an April 3 interview published by the Milan daily Il Giornale.

http://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/images/spacer.gif "The Pope is not the bishops’ ruler, he is a servant of the community," said Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the influential Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

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