Bishop Lynch (St Pete) comments on gay marriage in Florida

[FollowChrist34]

I think the reason homosexuality is being discussed so much lately has at least two major reasons:

1. the homosexuality group yells so loud to make it a “marriage” (where in reality it is NOT) so it causes lot of attention.
2. the Synod gave ambiguous statements made people think the Church will change her doctrine.

It is not anyone wants to specially condemn the sin of homosexuality. I am sure if someone wants to make murder legal, it will cause lot of attention also. If there is ambiguity of the Church to say there is “holiness” in a murder, it will causes the same attention. In that case, murder is not a singular sin, not the only sin either.

I think this is true. I admit to being basically neutral even indifferent about homosexuals (whether it was sin or not, etc.; wasn’t my problem) until the gay marriage campaign started and the political activism really ramped up. I am fine with a good fight here against this kind of activism, but it should never get personal or be based on hate or intolerance. It’s much the same as my exasperation with Obama; I am ok with fuming, but I don’t get into really ugly, hurtful personal attacks based on his race. It makes me kind of sick when I see who’s on my side sometimes. It is a fine line between a commitment to a legitimate cause and willingness to fight hard for it and displays of hostility and hatred. On this issue there is plenty of offense and hate to go around - from both sides, calling itself everything from Christianity to equal rights.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Ex-actly. Spot on, pnewton.

You see this all the time where gay people are thrown under the bus, gay groups are called by despicable names, and even morally good initiatives by the LGBT community (anti-homelessness efforts, anti-bullying efforts, even feeding the poor) are thrown out with the bathwater and trashed with vile language.

Yet complain about the morally evil actions of the Family Research Council or some fringe organizations within the Southern Baptist Church or complain about Catholics who would remotely think to associate with any of them (such as the Catholic Defense League) and you get the “no, hold on, they don’t realllllly mean it when they do X, Y, or Z horrible action. They’re one of us.”

Sorry, but I judge actions, not words or people. And someone being a Christian or not-Christian, gay or straight, active sinner or repentant sinner, whatever, does not matter to me. I will recognize (and applaud) the good they do and I will recognize (and condemn) the evil they do.

Certainly, homosexuals are not without good qualities. Nobody is suggesting that.

Catholic Defense League is different from FRC and very different from the Southern Baptist Church (Westboro). You just dislike Dr. Bill Donohue for his opinion on the John Jay Report, that the Catholic clergy abuse of minors is more associated with homosexuality than pedophilia, given that the statistical evidence shows that a majority of the abuse victims were post-pubescent males. There are professionals such as Dr. Rick Fitzgibbons in agreement with this, and others such as the president of Catholic Answers also agree!

Before you go ballistic again, this isnot saying that homosexuals are all pedophiles, but there is an obvious overlap there stemming from the unique social and cultural milieu of Catholic priest formation especially in the 70’s, not like any other environment outside and society at large.
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[InSearchofGrace]

I think the reason homosexuality is being discussed so much lately has at least two major reasons:

1. the homosexuality group yells so loud to make it a “marriage” (where in reality it is NOT) so it causes lot of attention.
2. the Synod gave ambiguous statements made people think the Church will change her doctrine.

It is not anyone wants to specially condemn the sin of homosexuality. I am sure if someone wants to make murder legal, it will cause lot of attention also. If there is ambiguity of the Church to say there is “holiness” in a murder, it will causes the same attention. In that case, murder is not a singular sin, not the only sin either.

 

[SMGS127]

Certainly, homosexuals are not without good qualities. Nobody is suggesting that.

Catholic Defense League is different from FRC and very different from the Southern Baptist Church (Westboro). You just dislike Dr. Bill Donohue for his opinion on the John Jay Report, that the Catholic clergy abuse of minors is more associated with homosexuality than pedophilia, given that the statistical evidence shows that a majority of the abuse victims were post-pubescent males. There are professionals such as Dr. Rick Fitzgibbons in agreement with this, and others such as the president of Catholic Answers also agree!

Before you go ballistic again, this isnot saying that homosexuals are all pedophiles, but there is an obvious overlap there stemming from the unique social and cultural milieu of Catholic priest formation especially in the 70’s, not like any other environment outside and society at large.
,

Considering that 65% of victims were 14 or under, it is a proven, indisputable fact that the vast majority of victims were not post-pubescent. It is a blatant untruth to claim otherwise.

Besides, I don’t particularly consider credible the claims of your citations, one of whom claims 9-year-old boys are post-pubescent and the other of whom suggested that Charlie Hebdo should have expected the attack against it. If you wish to continue to use your “citations,” I suggest you figure out a way to defend these statements. I think you will find that very, very few Catholics on Earth will agree with them on these issues.

 

[awsiukiewicz]

Heaven help us…I know where me…my family,stand on this issue…and the jury is out until the synod in Oct of this year, I believe…we’ll see where we chose to worship and receive the Sacraments thereafter…

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Considering that 65% of victims were 14 or under, it is a proven, indisputable fact that the vast majority of victims were not post-pubescent. It is a blatant untruth to claim otherwise.

Besides, I don’t particularly consider credible the claims of your citations, one of whom claims 9-year-old boys are post-pubescent and the other of whom suggested that Charlie Hebdo should have expected the attack against it. If you wish to continue to use your “citations,” I suggest you figure out a way to defend these statements. I think you will find that very, very few Catholics on Earth will agree with them on these issues.

Well, let’s go directly to the source, shall we? Of course you can still refuse to use reading and basic analytic abilities, but the John Jay Report itself in Tables 3.5.4 and 4.3.2 show the raw numbers, disproving your claim.

From Table 3.5.4 on Page 53

Male of Age / Number of Victims
1 – 7 years / 203
8 – 10 years / 992
11 - 14 years / 4,282
15 – 17 years / 2,892

Table 4.3.2 on Page 70 is interesting as it breaks it further down by victim’s age.

81% of the victims were male. Of the male victims, 15% were 10 years old and younger, 51% were between the ages of 11 and 14, and 34% were between the ages of 15 and 17 years.
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[CHESTERTONRULES]

He’s saying that the immoral sex, if present, does not invalidate the goods that are also found within the relationship, namely the mutual caretaking and love between partners. Just because gay sex is immoral does not mean that gay relationships have no good components.

While we’re at it, why not look for the good in pedophile relationships?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

It is true of other sins and I think that is exactly the point the Bishop is making. Homosexuality is not the only sin, nor is it such a singular sin that it must be treated with more contempt than all other sin combined. I think it is easier for use to talk about the sinfulness of homosexuality because we do not have any temptation (most of us) in this area. However, such discussion does us not good personally, whereas a focus on those sins which really get to us is far more profitable and much more difficult.

The problem is that there are many who want to claim that this particular sin is not even a sin.

We all sin, but we don’t all claim that our individual vices are not sins.

 

[anthony022071]

He’s not saying there is holiness found in the sex. And that’s the part Catholics consider the “sin” part, right?

He clearly says the “relationship” may be “marked by love and holiness”.
Obviously, just like an opposite-sex-relationship, a same-sex relationship can be full of love and support and friendship etc.

And those things, he is rightly pointing out, are loving and holy. Nothing changes that.

It isn’t just the sex that is the sin,but the perversity of the relationship. There can’t be holiness in a relationship between two homosexuals who are a “couple”. Their attraction to each other and their intentions are perverse,even apart from sexual activity. It is a perverse kind of love.

 

[PTL]

Definitions of holiness
noun
the state of being holy.
“a life of holiness and total devotion to God”

Only people who do not understand the meaning of holiness will say there is “holiness” in gay relationship such as “friendship”. If that is true, then you can say there is “holiness” in any sin and any crime - a rapist may be very loving to his own daughter, a killer may be very nice to his own wife, a mafia is usually very good to his own family, etc. etc… What an insult and twist to the word of holiness!

 

[SMGS127]

Well, let’s go directly to the source, shall we? Of course you can still refuse to use reading and basic analytic abilities, but the John Jay Report itself in Tables 3.5.4 and 4.3.2 show the raw numbers, disproving your claim.

From Table 3.5.4 on Page 53

Male of Age / Number of Victims
1 – 7 years / 203
8 – 10 years / 992
11 - 14 years / 4,282
15 – 17 years / 2,892

Table 4.3.2 on Page 70 is interesting as it breaks it further down by victim’s age.

Okay. My claim was:

Considering that 65% of victims were 14 or under, it is a proven, indisputable fact that the vast majority of victims were not post-pubescent. It is a blatant untruth to claim otherwise.

You then post:

81% of the victims were male. Of the male victims, 15% were 10 years old and younger, 51% were between the ages of 11 and 14, and 34% were between the ages of 15 and 17 years.
,

15% + 51% = 66%. So you’re proving my point?

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Okay. My claim was:

You then post:

15% + 51% = 66%. So you’re proving my point?

No.

The John Jay researchers define pedophile as an adult with an intense sexual attraction to prepubescent children. They define pedophilia as attraction to and abuse of anyone 10 or under, and by that definition, only 15 % fall in that category, using the raw numbers as taken from the above table.

Prepubescent in boys means before onset of sexual maturation signs , i.e., growth of penis and scrotal sac, deepening of voice, nocturnal emission, etc., generally between 10 - 14.

At any rate, as clarified in another post of mine, the conclusions reached by the John Jay Report are arguable, not in the sense that abuse of minors could be justifiable. Abuse of minors is horrible deserving condemnation. It is that the data strongly suggest that since 81% of the victims were male and that the majority of the victims are 11- 14 and 15 - 17 years of age, the problem is closer to homosexuality, or, to be more precise, homosexual ephebophilia. According to the terminology section of the JJ Report, ephebophile, also called hebephile is a clinical term that denotes one who is sexually attracted to adolescent or post pubescent children.

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[Tigg]

No.

The John Jay researchers define pedophile as an adult with an intense sexual attraction to prepubescent children. They define pedophilia as attraction to and abuse of anyone 10 or under, and by that definition, only 15 % fall in that category, using the raw numbers as taken from the above table.

Prepubescent in boys means before onset of sexual maturation signs , i.e., growth of penis and scrotal sac, deepening of voice, nocturnal emission, etc., generally between 10 - 14.

At any rate, as clarified in another post of mine, the conclusions reached by the John Jay Report are arguable, not in the sense that abuse of minors could be justifiable. Abuse of minors is horrible deserving condemnation. It is that the data strongly suggest that since 81% of the victims were male and that the majority of the victims are 11- 14 and 15 - 17 years of age, the problem is closer to homosexuality, or, to be more precise, homosexual ephebophilia. According to the terminology section of the JJ Report, ephebophile, also called hebephile is a clinical term that denotes one who is sexually attracted to adolescent or post pubescent children.

,

Hi there ISOG!

I always appreciate your common sense approach and research of this topic. Your posts have helped immensely.

 

[Origen52]

DO NOT READ IF YOU DON’T WANT YOUR PREJUDICES DISTURBED BY FACTS.

If anyone is interested in scientific studies, the following site is quite interesting.

psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

Just one of many studies

Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children’s hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% of cases in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).

 

[Tomdstone]

DO NOT READ IF YOU DON’T WANT YOUR PREJUDICES DISTURBED BY FACTS.

If anyone is interested in scientific studies, the following site is quite interesting.

psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

Just one of many studies

Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children’s hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% of cases in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).

Dr. Willian Donohue says he is an expert in these matters since he has a doctor’s degree in sociology. And he says that the Catholic Sex Abuse Scandal Is Not A Pedophilia Crisis But A Homosexual Crisis:
huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/bill-donohue-catholic-sex_n_520187.html

 

[JimG]

catholicleague.org/facts-priestly-sexual-abuse/

 

[SMGS127]

catholicleague.org/facts-priestly-sexual-abuse/

So you believe 9 year olds are post-pubescent? As InSearchOfGrace kindly showed earlier, for those statistics to be correct, you would have to believe that 3rd and 4th graders are post-pubescent. There is a reason most people find the arguments trying to link homosexuality to pedophilia (and in direct opposition to the Church’s own report on the subject) specious at best.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

So you believe 9 year olds are post-pubescent? As InSearchOfGrace kindly showed earlier, for those statistics to be correct, you would have to believe that 3rd and 4th graders are post-pubescent. There is a reason most people find the arguments trying to link homosexuality to pedophilia (and in direct opposition to the Church’s own report on the subject) specious at best.

My posts do not indicate that. Please re-read the last one in reply to yours.
,

 

[SMGS127]

My posts do not indicate that. Please re-read the last one in reply to yours.
,

Here’s your post:

From Table 3.5.4 on Page 53

Male of Age / Number of Victims
1 – 7 years / 203
8 – 10 years / 992
11 - 14 years / 4,282
15 – 17 years / 2,892

Table 4.3.2 on Page 70 is interesting as it breaks it further down by victim’s age.

According to your and Jim’s source, “over 95%” of male victims were supposedly post-pubescent. I’m sure you can do the math yourself and realize that, if over 14% of male children victimized were of the age of 10 or younger (1195/8369), for the statistic you two cited to be accurate, you would both have to believe that 9-10 year-olds are post-pubescent. I have asked you to defend this claim of yours and you have continued to be silent.

Again, the ridiculousness of the claims by those who claim a link between homosexuality and pedophilia should further show the integrity shown by the John Jay Report authors in stating the truth, according to reason and facts, over what conservatives were pushing them to say.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Here’s your post:

According to your and Jim’s source, “over 95%” of male victims were supposedly post-pubescent. I’m sure you can do the math yourself and realize that, if over 14% of male children victimized were of the age of 10 or younger (1195/8369), for the statistic you two cited to be accurate, you would both have to believe that 9-10 year-olds are post-pubescent. I have asked you to defend this claim of yours and you have continued to be silent.

Again, the ridiculousness of the claims by those who claim a link between homosexuality and pedophilia should further show the integrity shown by the John Jay Report authors in stating the truth, according to reason and facts, over what conservatives were pushing them to say.

I have NOT been silent, my reply re-printed below which you ignored.

No.

The John Jay researchers define pedophile as an adult with an intense sexual attraction to prepubescent children. They define pedophilia as attraction to and abuse of anyone 10 or under, and by that definition, only 15 % fall in that category, using the raw numbers as taken from the above table.

Prepubescent in boys means before onset of sexual maturation signs , i.e., growth of penis and scrotal sac, deepening of voice, nocturnal emission, etc., generally between 10 - 14.

At any rate, as clarified in another post of mine, the conclusions reached by the John Jay Report are arguable, not in the sense that abuse of minors could be justifiable. Abuse of minors is horrible deserving condemnation. It is that the data strongly suggest that since 81% of the victims were male and that the majority of the victims are 11- 14 and 15 - 17 years of age, the problem is closer to homosexuality, or, to be more precise, homosexual ephebophilia. According to the terminology section of the JJ Report, ephebophile, also called hebephile is a clinical term that denotes one who is sexually attracted to adolescent or post pubescent children.

,

Your bias is clouding your analytical ability.