Bishop McElroy: Attacks on Father James Martin expose a cancer within the U.S. Catholic Church

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Contrary to the Bishop’s opinion, it is a very good thing that these “attacks” are being made against Martin (if you call disputing his point of view “attacks”). It shows that there are those still within the Church that are willing to stand up against those who would distort Church teachings for their own political ends. There is nothing wrong with reaching out and building a bridge between gay people and the Church. However, it cannot come at the expense of Church teachings. Gay individuals should be welcome in the Church, but gay relationships and gay “marriages” can never be tolerated or approved. This does not mean that gay individuals need to beaten over the head with these essential truths, but it does mean that there are limits to how much they can be reconciled with the Church until their sinful partnerships cease. The failure of Fr. Martin to acknowledge this calls into question his orthodoxy on Church teaching and the potential effectiveness of any methods he would like to employ in bridging the gap between gay individuals and the Church.

In short, if Bishop McElroy thinks that Fr. Martin can’t handle the legitimate criticism of his work, then perhaps he shouldn’t have written the book.
 
Vadne said:
Father Martin’s writings deliberately avoid stating the perennial teaching of the Church, especially about the objectively disordered state of homosexuality, and the mortal sinfulness of homosexual acts. The point is clear: to move the Church toward a state of tolerance for the gay lifestyle. After all, who we are to judge?
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Absolutely! In fact, he suggests changing the wording in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Namely, he suggests changing the phrase “intrinsically disordered” to “differently ordered.” Thus, homosexual activity would simply be considered to be natural behavior as Fr. Gerald Murray suggests in his article here.
 
Do you think it’s fair to expect a non-theologian to answer theological questions? He did state the teachings of the Church and lives the teachings of the Church; I’d call that adhering.

I didn’t read the book but it’s not about the teachings of the Catholic Church. There are plenty of other books that deal with that subject.

By “we” I meant Catholics and the Catholic Church. You can judge a tree by it’s fruit and the fruit from that tree looks rotten to me.
 
1neophyte said:
Can faith, virtue, and life in the Church include having an unrepentant sexual relationship with someone who is the same gender as yourself? This is the million dollar question. What is your opinion?
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Let’s start by examining repentance. Assume, for the sake of discussion, that someone is an unrepentant sinner. It’s not always a permanent condition. How do we turn it around?

Maybe he has a little spark of repentance that hasn’t caught fire. How do we keep that spark alive? What can we do do make it grow?

Maybe he wants to live virtuously. Maybe he has tried and failed. It’s not easy. Society, media, and friends are dragging him down. How can we give him a hand up?

My opinion, since you asked, is that too many people do not see how to love the sinner. Satisfied with their own holiness, they say to the sinner “When you stop sinning, you can be my friend and you can join my church.” I pray that the Lord never says such a thing to me.
 
I’m so confused by this. Church teaching seems abundantly clear to me, both on the objective sinfulness of sexual relationships outside marriage and the compassion and love with which sinners should be treated. Am I allowed to disavow the sinfulness of my past sexual sins and at the same time love and embrace in Christian love those who, like me, still struggle with sinfulness? I’m hoping this was Fr. Martin’s point and aim.
 
RandomAlias said:
Let’s start by examining repentance. Assume, for the sake of discussion, that someone is an unrepentant sinner. It’s not always a permanent condition. How do we turn it around?

Maybe he has a little spark of repentance that hasn’t caught fire. How do we keep that spark alive? What can we do do make it grow?

Maybe he wants to live virtuously. Maybe he has tried and failed. It’s not easy. Society, media, and friends are dragging him down. How can we give him a hand up?

My opinion, since you asked, is that too many people do not see how to love the sinner. Satisfied with their own holiness, they say to the sinner “When you stop sinning, you can be my friend and you can join my church.” I pray that the Lord never says such a thing to me.
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Refusing to answer my question? What a shocking, unexpected turn of events! 😮

I’ll try one more time: Do you think it is possible for one to be in a sexually active same sex relationship and still be said to be living virtuously? That’s either a yes or a no. If it’s a yes, just come out and say so.

It’s really difficult to love sinners when you twist yourself into a pretzel to avoid even calling anyone a sinner. If it’s too offensive to call a sin a sin, then there will be no sinners around to love. There is nothing, I repeat, nothing in Fr. Martin’s position that is meant to “keep the spark of the desire for repentance” alive. Everything he says and does is directed toward eliminating the need for repentance, and normalizing whatever it takes for one to avoid feeling “lonely” or “left out”.
 
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1neophyte said:
Refusing to answer my question? What a shocking, unexpected turn of events! 😮
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No, you did not read the answer I gave you. You described the sinner as “unrepentant” and that is a major flaw in your argument. Where there is a possibility of repentance, if not today then sometime in the future, we should promote it.
 
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A priest doesn’t need to specialize in moral theology to teach the truth about homosexuality…especially if he wants to write a book about it.
 
1neophyte said:
Can faith, virtue, and life in the Church include having an unrepentant sexual relationship with someone who is the same gender as yourself? This is the million dollar question.
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1neophyte said:
I’ll try one more time: Do you think it is possible for one to be in a sexually active same sex relationship and still be said to be living virtuously? That’s either a yes or a no. If it’s a yes, just come out and say so…
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You are asking the wrong question, or rather your question is ill-posed. You are asking if a sinner is virtuous. Of course the answer is… maybe. After all, aren’t you a sinner, and also somewhat virtuous? Yeah, me too.

The question I am asking, and which I suggest you ask, is how to bring the sinner closer to faith, virtue, and the Church. I don’t think you can do it by shunning him.
 
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RandomAlias said:
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1neophyte:
Refusing to answer my question? What a shocking, unexpected turn of events! 😮
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No, you did not read the answer I gave you. You described the sinner as “unrepentant” and that is a major flaw in your argument. Where there is a possibility of repentance, if not today then sometime in the future, we should promote it.
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Whoops. You didn’t read the question…again. Maybe there’s a problem with the display on whatever device you’re using?

One more time: Can someone live a virtuous and holy life while engaging in regular sexual activity with a committed same sex partner? Or is such activity a barrier to holiness?

Follow up bonus question, in case this post somehow comes across legible on your side this time: Does Fr. Martin promote the possibility of current or future repentance? Or is he promoting something else?
 
RandomAlias said:
The question I am asking, and which I suggest you ask, is how to bring the sinner closer to faith, virtue, and the Church. I don’t think you can do it by shunning him.
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  1. Please remind me where I suggested shunning anyone. I don’t remember doing that.
  2. If your question was answered with “The way to bring the sinner closer to faith and virtue is by making it clear that their sinful behavior is sinful, and that in order to move toward holiness they must move away from sin (in this specific case, same-sex sexual activity)”, would you have a problem with that answer?
To use another example, if you had a friend whose (opposite sex) spouse was committing adultery, would you counsel your friend not to “shun” their spouse, and encourage them to promote the possibility of future repentance?
 
Here’s another example of this cancer within the U.S. Church. I wasn’t aware of this until today…

‘New Pro-Life Movement’ co-founder loses job, attacked online

Keep in mind that she founded the New Pro-Life Movement with a man but they only went after the woman.

I didn’t read the Life Site hit piece but just skimmed it. This is one of the things that they took offense to (she’s writing about the sex and violence in Game of Thrones):
Pornography by its nature dehumanizes the body and reduces it to a sex object for gratification and use. This is different from representations of the human body which elicit heightened awareness of personhood. Such representations are not always necessarily lovely. The crucifixion, a bodily image at the heart of the Catholic imagination, is proof of this….

I would suggest that for the most part the representations of sex and violence in Game of Thrones are intended to elicit this heightened awareness of humanity. Yes, much of the sex is exploitative, but this is portrayed as negative, intended to awaken a sense of justice.
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ETA: Wow, reading the Life Site article further gives me the impression that this Doug Grane guy has real issues with human sexuality.
 
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RandomAlias said:
. . . Maybe he wants to live virtuously. Maybe he has tried and failed. It’s not easy . . .

My opinion, since you asked, is that too many people do not see how to love the sinner. Satisfied with their own holiness, they say to the sinner “When you stop sinning, you can be my friend and you can join my church.” I pray that the Lord never says such a thing to me.
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Granted some may have tried and failed - we all fall short.

But this notion of “When you stop sinning, you can be my friend and join my Church” - I’m not sure what your source is.

In my parish we are all sinners, and both our pastor and his assistant do what they can to make the sacrament of Reconciliation available to all of us - frequently: We try not to sin.

In this real-life scenario “equality” would mean all sins - no special exception for any particular sin. We must see that a sin is a sin ; we must call it a sin ; and with God’s grace, we must make an effort to try and avoid the sin. That applies across the board, and I don’t believe anyone can be granted a special exemption when it comes to a particular type of sin.

Rather than someone who engages in a particular type of sin per se, the ones who make me most uneasy are those who think they no longer require the sacrament of Confession - that, is a BIG mistake.
 
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Priests are not immune to criticism. There is no law in the Church that forbids criticism of priests. Or of bishops (including that of Rome).
 
Canon law requires that all priests be spoken of with reverence:
§3 They have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ’s faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.
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http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_PT.HTM
 
No, it says show “due reverence to the Pastors”. And Father Martin is a wolf and no pastor when he causes any Catholic to think that homosexual acts are not objectively disordered, as the Church clearly and definitively teaches.
 
Vadne said:
And Father Martin is a wolf and no pastor when he causes any Catholic to think that homosexual acts are not objectively disordered, as the Church clearly and definitively teaches.
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That is slander. When did he ever say this?
 
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