Bishop: ministry to gay people must include call to chastity

[ToeInTheWater]

This is a good point. The legal cases and the public disagreement directed at any company where the CEO for example expresses any religiously-based negative viewpoint of gay people (Chic-Fil-A for example) has scared a lot of Christians, including some Catholics, into thinking that the Church is somehow going to be legally compelled to marry gay couples and make Catholic business people actively support these weddings, or else.

Yes, whereas AFAIK no one is threatening to force Catholic priests to marry people who are cohabitating, or are divorced but have no annulment.

 

[Joe_5859]

It comes down to whether you see “The Church” as just the official statements and attitudes of those running it, or “The Church” as the collective body of everybody participating which would include all the lay people in the pews and how they act, as well as all the unofficial attitudes of the average priests dealing with people.

There’s a tendency to be tolerant of people having premarital heterosexual sex because there is some hope that this might end up as a valid, Church-approved marriage and frequently it does. When you go to the priest and say “We’d like to get married” he does not give you the third degree about whether you are being chaste with each other in your unmarried life, probably because he wants to encourage you to get married and “make it legal”, not make you upset so you go storming out of his office.

On the other hand, homosexual sex is never going to end up in a relationship approved by the Church so the tendency is to see even the inclination to it as always bad, even if the person is being chaste.

Fair enough. The Church is, in a very real sense, made up of all Her members—whether clergy or laity. But I don’t understand holding “the Church” accountable for every Catholic that fails to practice what the Catholic Church teaches.

Yes, it is certainly easier for a priest to adopt a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy when it comes to couples asking to be married in the Church. I don’t recall being directly asked about that when my wife and I were doing marriage prep. But our marriage prep took place at a dynamically Catholic university, so there was a bit of a different demographic they were serving.

If anyone says that the homosexual inclination itself is sinful, then I would tell the person they don’t understand Catholic teaching.

 

[esieffe]

I see this sentiment a lot, but it strikes me as ambiguous and thus impossible to fulfill. What do we mean by the “Church” and what do we mean by having them treated “the same”?

Is there some great disparity between homosexual relations and other types of sex outside marriage in Church documents? In homilies from priests? In statements from bishops?

I mean, I understand that many people experience this on an anecdotal level with Catholics they know. These Catholics perhaps go along with the culture in regards to contraception and pre-marital sex, and yet still retain their objection to same sex activity. But that doesn’t really translate into action by “the Church.”

I know that my experience is not normative, but pretty much every priest or bishop I’ve ever known would be more than happy to affirm that chastity is a virtue that everyone needs to practice regardless of sexual orientation.

It’s a good idea, when there are a lot of mixed messages and noise going on to restate the rules. The rule is, when you are not “sacramentaly” married in the eyes of the church, you gotta be chaste. We love all of you, we welcome all sinners, but you still have to be chaste. kpeople::yup:

 

[SuperLuigi]

=Oneofthewomen;14823800]I agree with this, but unless and until the Church treats all sex outside of marriage with the same tenacity, I think this is going to fall on deaf ears.

Pople would just ask when’s the last time a couple shacking up or getting a divorce demanding their lifestyle be taught in public schools and a cake made by a Christian (not a Muslim, of course) must be made for their escapade.

So really, let’s stop pretending this is all the same.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Pople would just ask when’s the last time a couple shacking up or getting a divorce demanding their lifestyle be taught in public schools and a cake made by a Christian (not a Muslim, of course) must be made for their escapade.

So really, let’s stop pretending this is all the same.

That’s a good point. Though sadly, these days I think “masturbator pride” marches are not as a ridiculous an example as previously thought.

 

[rock022]

What I see is the same cunning subtleness of the snake in the garden of Eden.

The Snake did not asked about the forbidden Tree, the snake asked about ALL of the trees.

The same goes with gays and straight people. The snake does not ask about the gays, but about all the people.

 

[ATraveller]

It is one thing to say it, doing it is another. I know far too many Catholics who lived together before marriage and then had the big Church wedding and no one batted an eye. But come out as gay, but not in a relationship and you are still a pariah.

Quite honestly, it’s mind-boggling:hypno: to me.

That’s something that irritates me a lot.
‘Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea’ - Mk 9:42
The conflicts over gay people and celibacy is due to the rampant fornication across the West. Some of this is out of the control of the Church but…
It should not be a surprise that the toleration of fornication in some parishes and congregations (one is one too many) in the past and present has *partly *led us to where we are. This creates the perception being chaste is impossible. The damage has been done. The important thing is to do a better job of teaching young Christians and be better at supporting them in staying chaste. This is something Christians have some control over.

So, they look at suspicion on anyone who identifies as “gay” as they suspect even the “chaste gays” are guilty of collaborating with the Gay Agenda.

I’m appalled to know a few (not all were calling themselves ‘Christians’) who view gay people including chaste gay Christians in a very nasty way also fornicate or have fornicated and tried justifying their sin when pressed on their hypocrisy. That serious sin of those ‘Christians’ alone was already disturbing enough. If any gay Christians knew about their sentiments and their inconsistent lives, I wouldn’t blame them if they left the Christian faith. For that matter, any Christian.
Frankly, their hypocrisy is a much bigger problem than the gay agenda as it embarrasses the Church, causes other Christians heterosexual or homosexual fighting the very same temptations to stumble or at the very least throwing another obstacle in fighting temptations, and fuels the hostility towards the Body of Christ.

The priest who married us, didn’t ask either, but I assume he knew we weren’t. That was 20 years ago, and even though many people did live together before marriage then, it wasn’t nearly as common practice as it seems to be now.

It’s much more common but it’s not as widespread among practising Catholics or conservative Protestants as some would thing though it’s growing slightly. It’s vital for people not to be afraid of offending those calling themselves Christians by telling them cohabitation is a sin. In fact, we’re commanded to rebuke those calling themselves Christians when they’re sinning and make no effort to repent. Cure this cancer before it metastasizes throughout Christianity.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Having your behavior called out as a sin by your priest, your bishop, or your close family member (such as your parent) or very good friend might possibly have an impact - if not right away, then later.

Having your behavior called out as a sin by somebody more distant is likely to fall on deaf or hostile ears.

 

[ATraveller]

Having your behavior called out as a sin by your priest, your bishop, or your close family member (such as your parent) or very good friend might possibly have an impact - if not right away, then later.

Having your behavior called out as a sin by somebody more distant is likely to fall on deaf or hostile ears.

True but anyone claiming to be a Christian has to be informed he or she is sinning. At that point, they have a choice, turn away and fight the sin or risk going further on the path of church discipline. As long as they call themselves Christians, they are expected to follow Christ.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

True but anyone claiming to be a Christian has to be informed he or she is sinning. At that point, they have a choice, turn away and fight the sin or risk going further on the path of church discipline. As long as they call themselves Christians, they are expected to follow Christ.

And this sort of thing is precisely why, in my younger days when I was probably doing things that would be considered “sinning”, I avoided anyone who acted or talked in a religious manner, because they felt it useful to go around pointing out the sins of relative strangers. No thanks!

The best evangelists I know present Jesus as an awesome force in their lives that has done great things for them and they want to share Him with others so others can benefit too. They don’t lead by saying “Hey, you’re committing Sins A, B and C and probably going to Hell, you might want to do something about that and if not stop even mentioning that you believe, or once believed, in Jesus Christ, because He’s only for good people like me, not sinners like you.”

 

[Peter_J]

That’s something that irritates me a lot.
‘Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea’ - Mk 9:42
The conflicts over gay people and celibacy is due to the rampant fornication across the West. Some of this is out of the control of the Church but…
It should not be a surprise that the toleration of fornication in some parishes and congregations (one is one too many) in the past and present has *partly *led us to where we are. This creates the perception being chaste is impossible. The damage has been done. The important thing is to do a better job of teaching young Christians and be better at supporting them in staying chaste. This is something Christians have some control over.
I’m appalled to know a few (not all were calling themselves ‘Christians’) who view gay people including chaste gay Christians in a very nasty way also fornicate or have fornicated and tried justifying their sin when pressed on their hypocrisy. That serious sin of those ‘Christians’ alone was already disturbing enough. If any gay Christians knew about their sentiments and their inconsistent lives, I wouldn’t blame them if they left the Christian faith. For that matter, any Christian.
Frankly, their hypocrisy is a much bigger problem than the gay agenda as it embarrasses the Church, causes other Christians heterosexual or homosexual fighting the very same temptations to stumble or at the very least throwing another obstacle in fighting temptations, and fuels the hostility towards the Body of Christ.

Amid the Wreckage of the Christian Right

 

[jeannetherese]

The priest at my church will not marry a couple that is living together. At least that is what I’ve heard indirectly. They are required to start living chastely. Of course, some people probably lie about it.

I’ve heard the same from parishioners at my local parish. The priest explained the reasons for chastity and insisted that living chastely must precede marriage.
They became chaste, according to their station in life, and, after instruction, married in the church.