Bishop orders priests to read anti-Obama letter at Sunday sermons

[CMatt25]

You also are aware why a two party still exists and flourishes in this country. A Catholic ready to raise the Republican or Democratic banner isn’t making things any better; quite the opposite. Also true of any staunch liberal or conservative out there.

Well I’m aware the 2 wield a lot of power in the election process. And it’s also not easy for others to get their message out there for instance when they must meet such threshholds to even participate in debates. But to the topic at hand, if I were a fully faithful Catholic that would be my problem with this bishop’s letter. He’s a Catholic, believed to be an Apostolic successor by Catholics, whose letter he is forcing priests to read at Mass, can be translated as raising the Republican banner.

 

[ishii]

Well I’m aware the 2 wield a lot of power in the election process. And it’s also not easy for others to get their message out there for instance when they must meet such threshholds to even participate in debates. But to the topic at hand, if I were a fully faithful Catholic that would be my problem with this bishop’s letter. He’s a Catholic, believed to be an Apostolic successor by Catholics, whose letter can be translated as raising the Republican banner.

No, Cmatt, you have it backwards - it translates to: " Obama is unacceptable to Catholics" because of the anti-Catholic positions of Obama. You translate that into “raising the Republican banner.” Its about Obama, not Romney and the Republicans. Now, if one chooses to vote for Romney in light of the letter, then so be it - that is their choice. They could just as easily choose to vote for a 3rd party candidate or not vote at all - as some on these forums have said they will do. Anti-Obama doesn’t automatically mean, " pro-Romney."

Ishii

 

[rlg94086]

Well I’m aware the 2 wield a lot of power in the election process. And it’s also not easy for others to get their message out there for instance when they must meet such threshholds to even participate in debates. But to the topic at hand, if I were a fully faithful Catholic that would be my problem with this bishop’s letter. He’s a Catholic, believed to be an Apostolic successor by Catholics, whose letter can be translated as raising the Republican banner.

Can you show what, specifically, in the letter “raises the Republican banner?”

 

[CMatt25]

No, Cmatt, you have it backwards - it translates to: " Obama is unacceptable to Catholics" because of the anti-Catholic positions of Obama. You translate that into “raising the Republican banner.” Its about Obama, not Romney and the Republicans. Now, if one chooses to vote for Romney in light of the letter, then so be it - that is their choice.

Ishii

Yes Ishii I translate the bishop in the manner in which I do because barring an Electoral College tie, either Obama is going to win 270 or more Electoral votes from the election on Tues and be reelected or the Republican is. One or the other. So when you tell voters in the pews Obama is unacceptable, that is telling them it’s only acceptable to vote for the Republican. And rLg, thus only acceptable to vote for the Republican banner.

 

[OU812]

Yes Ishii I translate the bishop in the manner in which I do because barring an Electoral College tie, either Obama is going to win 270 or more Electoral votes from the election on Tues and be reelected or the Republican is. One or the other. So when you tell voters in the pews Obama is unacceptable, that is telling them it’s only acceptable to vote for the Republican. And rLg, thus only acceptable to vote for the Republican banner.

You can vote for another party or not vote at all, which is what I’m doing.

 

[LisaA]

No, Cmatt, you have it backwards - it translates to: " Obama is unacceptable to Catholics" because of the anti-Catholic positions of Obama. You translate that into “raising the Republican banner.” Its about Obama, not Romney and the Republicans. Now, if one chooses to vote for Romney in light of the letter, then so be it - that is their choice. They could just as easily choose to vote for a 3rd party candidate or not vote at all - as some on these forums have said they will do. Anti-Obama doesn’t automatically mean, " pro-Romney."

Ishii

Exactly. The Church has also been very vocal about cuts to social services programs which is often interpreted to being anti-Republican. This weekend in my Parish bulletin is a letter to be sent to our Congressmen regarding cuts to Head Start, Food Stamps and other similar government programs. Is that letter anti-Romney?

The difference though is that the abortion issue is non-negotiable whereas HOW the poor and marginal are to be supported is not. We are called to help the poor but the Church doesn’t claim the only way to do so is through tax dollars and government programs.

As a convert I have to wonder why so many cradle Catholics have to be told over and over and over that life issues are non-negotiable, that they cannot vote FOR a pro-abortion candidate…whatever party. I’ve been with a pilgrimage group and while we didn’t talk politics for the most part one very seemingly devout Cradle Catholic spouted “I don’t understand why the Church makes such a big deal about abortion. There are other issues.” The thud was the rest of our jaws dropping to the ground. Truly this is a lesson that needs to be pounded in repeatedly as some have ears but do not hear.

Lisa

 

[CMatt25]

You can vote for another party or not vote at all, which is what I’m doing.

Yes I know that. But from what I’ve been able to gather, there are Catholics here who say a faithful Catholic must vote for Romney because he or Obama is going to win and they believe Romney is the better choice of the two. There are Catholics who disagree with them on that however. They quote “Faithful Citizenship” and other Catholic sources in advocating their views. There is much disagreement. I’ll let them argue it.

But my friend Ishii if I’m not mistaken is one who advocates against voting for a minor party or not voting. He will say if you otherwise would have voted for Romney over Obama, then you take a vote away from Romney which helps Obama. But if you believe unlike apparently the bishop, that Romney has flaws comparable to Obama and you can vote for neither, then I understand you are voting your conscience. I’ve in the past considered voting for another party myself. I nearly did in 2000 for President and did for governor in 2010. God bless and peace on your decision.

 

[ishii]

Yes I know that. But from what I’ve been able to gather, there are Catholics here who say a faithful Catholic must vote for Romney because he or Obama is going to win and they believe Romney is the better choice of the two. There are Catholics who disagree with them on that however.

My friend Ishii if I’m not mistaken is one who advocates against voting for a minor party or not voting. He will say if you otherwise would have voted for Romney over Obama, then you take a vote away from Romney which helps Obama. But if you believe unlike apparently the bishop, that Romney has flaws comparable to Obama and you can vote for neither, then I understand you are voting your conscience. I’ve in the past considered voting for another party myself. I nearly did in 2000 for President and did for governor in 2010. God bless and peace on your decision.

My friend Cmatt is correct. I believe that not voting or voting 3rd party is a waste in that it does not effectively oppose the evil of Obama’s policies. But this is not about my views - its about an anti-Obama letter which does not explicitly tell people who to vote for, but who not to vote for. That said, I agree that out of those who conclude that Obama is unacceptable for reasons outlined in the letter read at church, most would vote for Romney. But that still does not make the letter “pro-Romney” as you allege. Those voting for Romney do so on their own accord.

Ishii

 

[rlg94086]

You are correct, Cmatt. I believe that not voting or voting 3rd party is a waste in that it does not effectively oppose the evil of Obama’s policies. But this is not about my views - its about an anti-Obama letter which does not explicitly tell people who to vote for, but who not to vote for. That said, I agree that out of those who conclude that Obama is unacceptable for reasons outlined in the letter read at church, most would vote for Romney. But that still does not make the letter “pro-Romney” as you allege. Those voting for Romney do so on their own accord.

Ishii

Exactly. The thread is about the letter. There is nothing partisan about the letter…

 

[CaptFun]

In the letter, Jenky cautions parishioners that Obama and a majority of U.S. senators will not reconsider the mandate that would require employers, including religious groups, to provide free birth control coverage in their health care plans. “This assault upon our religious freedom is simply without precedent in the American political and legal system,” Jenky wrote.

“Today, Catholic politicians, bureaucrats, and their electoral supporters who callously enable the destruction of innocent human life in the womb also thereby reject Jesus as their Lord,” Jenky added. “They are objectively guilty of grave sin.”

Read more here: mcclatchydc.com/2012/10/31/173269/bishop-orders-priests-to-read.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

These two paragraphs are for me the most critical ones from the initial article.

There’s an old show business saying " … but will it play in Peoria … ?" with Peoria, Illinois as a kind of “Everytown” USA or the pulse of the suburban/rural folks.

This Bishop Jenky of Peoria sure knows how to Bish! No vague subtleties here. BTW Peoria was the home of Blessed Fulton Sheen - an American born Archbishop enroute to sainthood now. :dancing::extrahappy:

I don’t expect to see Illinois go from “safe Obama” to “toss up” any time soon but there is suddenly an outbreak of Midwestern Bishops being bold all at once. It MAY have happened before but NOW I’m hearing about it.

In the past, for a Bishop to make news, he had to either be avante garde as regards some
traditional teaching or stance of the Church, or be the poor fellow who had to announce how his Diocese was handling the latest media hot potato in his area.

It’s not quite Richard Burton as Tomas a’Becket excommunicating someone publicly; but
it’s nice to know that there is a mix of “John the Baptist” type Bishops around instead of always the “great silent majority” of Bishops quietly doing good while not so great or silent leaders trumpet all sorts of controversial teachings, rullings or complaints.

Thought I’d post this because our moderator has been so patient in asking us to return to Bishop Jenky’s letter. Thank you Robert.

youtube.com/watch?v=7p9CiBJfbik&feature=related < State vs. Church Old School. King Henry II through intermediaries attempts to arrest Tomas a’Becket Archbishop of Canterbury. Peter O’Toole plays the King in this scene; Richard Burton the later to be martyred St. Tomas a’Becket.

youtube.com/watch?v=NRt2cKvJLlE < Becket Excommunication Scene.

State vs. Church is not a new occurrence; in Becket’s case, as in St. Thomas More’s, principle led to a martyr’s crown. But also a Saint’s Crown in both cases.

 

[OU812]

Yes I know that. But from what I’ve been able to gather, there are Catholics here who say a faithful Catholic must vote for Romney because he or Obama is going to win and they believe Romney is the better choice of the two. There are Catholics who disagree with them on that however. They quote “Faithful Citizenship” and other Catholic sources in advocating their views. There is much disagreement. I’ll let them argue it.

It’s a sword that cuts both ways.

I’ve heard Catholics say people should vote for Obama because there is no guarantee the U.S. won’t be flung in another war, Romney would cripple the economy, hand out various tax breaks for the rich, yadda, yadda, yadda.

If more voters (Not just Catholics) actually scrutinized both parties, they’d find more similarities than differences.

 

[OU812]

My friend Cmatt is correct. I believe that not voting or voting 3rd party is a waste in that it does not effectively oppose the evil of Obama’s policies.

I actually heard similar sentiment from the Obama camp. Romney isn’t even elected and he’s already backtracking on a lot of things he’s said in the past.

 

[ishii]

It’s a sword that cuts both ways.

I’ve heard Catholics say people should vote for Obama because there is no guarantee the U.S. won’t be flung in another war, Romney would cripple the economy, hand out various tax breaks for the rich, yadda, yadda, yadda.

If more voters (Not just Catholics) actually scrutinized both parties, they’d find more similarities than differences.

I don’t think so. Our country is basically divided between liberal/conservative. The parties are quite different - look at the platforms.

Ishii

 

[OU812]

I don’t think so. Our country is basically divided between liberal/conservative. The parties are quite different - look at the platforms.

Which is a joke and a half. People really believe that the answer solely lies in either Republican or Democrat…and they’re not willing to listen or hear other platforms.

How many decades have we’ve been playing this same spiel: democrat vs. republican? How much good has been done since?

 

[LisaA]

It’s a sword that cuts both ways.

I’ve heard Catholics say people should vote for Obama because there is no guarantee the U.S. won’t be flung in another war, Romney would cripple the economy, hand out various tax breaks for the rich, yadda, yadda, yadda.

If more voters (Not just Catholics) actually scrutinized both parties, they’d find more similarities than differences.

Really? Do tell! As a Catholic please focus on the non-negotiables and explain how the parties are similar? Do they both support abortion on demand, preferably paid for by the taxpayers? Do they both support forcing private institutions to betray their deeply held teachings regarding healthcare decisions? Do they both support homosexual marriage? Do they both think of Israel as just another country in the Middle East? Do they both boo God? Do they both want to fund Planned Parenthood?

Can’t wait to hear about these similarities!

Lisa

 

[OU812]

Really? Do tell! As a Catholic please focus on the non-negotiables and explain how the parties are similar? Do they both support abortion on demand, preferably paid for by the taxpayers? Do they both support forcing private institutions to betray their deeply held teachings regarding healthcare decisions? Do they both support homosexual marriage? Do they both think of Israel as just another country in the Middle East? Do they both boo God? Do they both want to fund Planned Parenthood?

Can’t wait to hear about these similarities!

Lisa

Well, look at Romeny. Here’s a guy who was in favor of contraception, abortion for those whose life was in danger, was raped, or was pregnant due to incest.

Now, he’s trying to cover that up.

With regards to Obamacare, it’s based around Romenycare.

With regards to both republicans and democrats, which party is dedicated in limiting our forces overseas? Limiting our spending overseas? Being more staunch against China and their manufacturing means? Being more staunch against companies who ship work overseas? Relegating some power back to the states?

Look at some of the positions held in various levels in the federal government; some of these positions are filled not because of their political outlook but rather for whom they were employed before.

Doesn’t it seem so odd that companies, corporations, and big banks hand out such huge sums of money to those on the federal level? So, are these politicians working on our behalf or are they bought?

Reasons as to why I would love to see more political platforms other than just the two we have.

 

[LisaA]

Well, look at Romeny. Here’s a guy who was in favor of contraception, abortion for those whose life was in danger, was raped, or was pregnant due to incest.

Now, he’s trying to cover that up.

With regards to Obamacare, it’s based around Romenycare.

With regards to both republicans and democrats, which party is dedicated in limiting our forces overseas? Limiting our spending overseas? Being more staunch against China and their manufacturing means? Being more staunch against companies who ship work overseas? Relegating some power back to the states?

Look at some of the positions held in various levels in the federal government; some of these positions are filled not because of their political outlook but rather for whom they were employed before.

Doesn’t it seem so odd that companies, corporations, and big banks hand out such huge sums of money to those on the federal level? So, are these politicians working on our behalf or are they bought?

Reasons as to why I would love to see more political platforms other than just the two we have.

Fine and I’d love to have World Peace but it’s not going to happen. You frankly made my point in the contrasts regarding foreign aid, regulating power to the states, etc. The parties are VERY different on all of the issues you raised. Yet you claimed the two parties are more alike than different. You contradict your own statement!

Now once again, as a Catholic please discuss the similarities between the two parties on the issues listed. I don’t believe you can and that your original statement is not supportable.

Lisa

 

[CaptFun]

How can anyone given the gift of faith support Obama?
How can anyone given the gift of reason support Obama?
How can anyone given the gift of life support Obama?

I’m with you Trader. But I love a challenge. I’ll attempt some rationales (none of which I agree with though).

]How can anyone given the gift of faith support Obama? -their faith in Obama is greater than their faith in their faith.

How can anyone given the gift of reason support Obama? - they reason that 'it doesn’t matter because Romney is not a saint. Having gone the moral equivalent route THAT far … they think upon something they like about Obama and it tips the scales in a way that matches their emotions (which are more fun to indulge than one’s reason).

How can anyone given the gift of life support Obama? - Free will. Since it’s been given, humankind has sometimes looked at evil as a “choice” and instead of listening to their good conscience they choose the evil - sometimes with a rousing “Yes we CAN!”

I’ll add one to your previous, Trader: How could 59% of CATHOLICS have voted that way in 2008 given all the info out there on partial birth abortion and the “Born Alive” legislation that EVERYONE signed onto except … him? :banghead:

 

[OU812]

Fine and I’d love to have World Peace but it’s not going to happen. You frankly made my point in the contrasts regarding foreign aid, regulating power to the states, etc. The parties are VERY different on all of the issues you raised. Yet you claimed the two parties are more alike than different. You contradict your own statement!

Really?

Which political party has fought diligently to limit our bases, bring most of our troops home, and leaving most decisions to be made by individual states?

As a matter of fact, which party has fought diligently to banish Roe v. Wade and every subsequent abortion case that made it to the Supreme Court from law?

Speaking about it isn’t the same as doing.

Now once again, as a Catholic please discuss the similarities between the two parties on the issues listed. I don’t believe you can and that your original statement is not supportable.

Might want to reread my first post.

 

[LisaA]

Really?

Which political party has fought diligently to limit our bases, bring most of our troops home, and leaving most decisions to be made by individual states?

As a matter of fact, which party has fought diligently to banish Roe v. Wade and every subsequent abortion case that made it to the Supreme Court from law?

Speaking about it isn’t the same as doing.

Might want to reread my first post.

Why? It makes no sense. Again you wander from the thread. The letter is with respect to the issues I noted; abortion, religious freedom, and other non-negotiables. You won’t address these issues which are the subject of the thread and point to the DIFFERENCES between the parties. Instead you speak of military bases and states’ rights.

Now tell me again how similar the two platforms are with respect to the issues addressed in the Bishops’ letter.

Lisa