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Pariah_Pirana
Guest
Kneeling is called out in the GIRM. Follow the Church, not what you feel is “best.”
Also, do they hold people down and pour the Precious Blood down their throats?
Your posting dosen’t pass the smell test…
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Also, do they hold people down and pour the Precious Blood down their throats?
Your posting dosen’t pass the smell test…
P
Pariah_Pirana
Guest
Deacon Ed:
Well done, Bp. Brown! Follow the Church and not what we feel is “best.”
P
Pariah_Pirana
Guest
Based on what the Church instructs, it is UNorthodox to distribute communion to those keeling at the altar rail during the Pauline Mass based on the GIRM:
"The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm."
You illustrate perfectly how some feel they know “what is best” even if it does not follow what the Church actually directs…
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ddimitro
Guest
And the Mission is by no means ideal, as it’s about half-standing and half-sitting. So many don’t even see the Mass; they come inside to receive Communion.
DD
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JNB
Guest
I guess I could quote various Vatican documents on how the indult is suppsed to be wide and generous, and of course people went on at length on probably at least 10 threads on the clearification the Vatican held on communion postures, issued by the CDF, but with someone like you, the effort is wasted.
Pariah Pirana:
Code:
I will just call things like I see them, Crusader, you are a troll. Nothing more. nothing less.
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JNB
Guest
Growing up in Northren California, all I can say is Abp. Levada didnt really do much one way or the other. Many of his writings looked quite orthodox, but the situation in the SF archdiocese on the parish level didnt imporve, and from what I understand, the arcdiocean seminary isint that much changed either, though granted, he inherrited a mess left over by Abp. Quinn,who was quite similar to Abp. Hunthausen and Abp. Weakland.
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Melanie01
Guest
A slight deviation here…why is the Eucharist relegated to an obscure corner of many churches, I have been in some and could not locate the Tabernacle at all, no sanctuary light and certainly the congregation wandering in talking loudly did not genuflect so I thought I was in a hall…so does the Eucharist command a dominant and central position in your church?
T
tpmjr42
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
Sorry, but the schedule is set-up precisely to discourage TLM attendance. That is not just my speculation, though it is rather obvious, it is from a well-informed source who himself is not a fan of the TLM.
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
As I read everyone’s comments I can’t help but wonder if the people have taken their position higher, and if need be to Pope Benedict by flooding him with letters. A thousand names on a petition is one thing, but a thousand letters to the Pope on a single subject…I think you see the point.
Aside from that, I am new at receiving communion at the rail and went from, “I can’t believe I have to stoop to this” to feeling that it is the most humbling, most beautiful communion experience I’ve ever had and now my preference - all in just three days. I now see the relevence of being humble before the Lord.
I don’t have all the distractions of the line as I prepare to receive Our Lord and the time is focused on Him.
Just like there are different ways that religious and priests serve God through orders who live slightly differenf from each other (i.e, diocesan priest versus Benedictine, Salesion, or other), I believe there are different ways to worship the Lord in the Mass.
This product of 1970’s “Jesus Loves Me” Catechism has now fully embraced the more traditional style of Mass. Granted, I am now a registered member of Assumption Grotto where we celebrate at least one Novus Ordo Mass in which common prayers are in Latin. This took some warming up too and now I love it. I had a tough time accepting the lack of touching and the lack of acknowledgement between people, but now I embrace this too as it enables me to focus my attention on God and no one else.
I can understand the pain of those at St. Mary’s by the Sea because if someone forced Assumption Grotto to go to what is in every other parish around me, I too would be deeply disappointed by the lack of charity to let me worship the Lord in this unique way.
Furthermore, my cousin who has just gotten her doctorate in Sociology was interested in witnessing the many things I have at this particular parish. She, like me, noted the vast numbers of youthful families and young adults who packed the church. Only weeks ago, and for the last few years I’ve been commenting to anyone near me in church that the grey hair throughout the other parishes is stunning.
More traditional or orthodox parishes I see lots of young people
More modern parishes around me, I see lots of gray hair.
What’s up with that? My cousin noted it as well and was rather amazed. She has to leave the area to go to another state for a job she just took and now she is looking up more traditional parishes in her area. She’s in her late 30’s and I in my early 40’s and look at what we are suddenly attracted to, like many others even younger than us.
One only needs to look at the young faces on EWTN in those traditional masses to see where a new trend is headed. Count me in! In fact, EWTN is probably thrusting people into desiring this type of Mass. My parish, Assumption Grotto puts as much Latin into the Latin Mass as it can, including most or all of the songs, the Confiteor, Gloria, Credo, and other common prayers. I love it! After a lifetime of praying these things, I can honestly say that I am beginning to recognize the words and understand Latin after just 4 weeks.
Aside from that, I am new at receiving communion at the rail and went from, “I can’t believe I have to stoop to this” to feeling that it is the most humbling, most beautiful communion experience I’ve ever had and now my preference - all in just three days. I now see the relevence of being humble before the Lord.
I don’t have all the distractions of the line as I prepare to receive Our Lord and the time is focused on Him.
Just like there are different ways that religious and priests serve God through orders who live slightly differenf from each other (i.e, diocesan priest versus Benedictine, Salesion, or other), I believe there are different ways to worship the Lord in the Mass.
This product of 1970’s “Jesus Loves Me” Catechism has now fully embraced the more traditional style of Mass. Granted, I am now a registered member of Assumption Grotto where we celebrate at least one Novus Ordo Mass in which common prayers are in Latin. This took some warming up too and now I love it. I had a tough time accepting the lack of touching and the lack of acknowledgement between people, but now I embrace this too as it enables me to focus my attention on God and no one else.
I can understand the pain of those at St. Mary’s by the Sea because if someone forced Assumption Grotto to go to what is in every other parish around me, I too would be deeply disappointed by the lack of charity to let me worship the Lord in this unique way.
Furthermore, my cousin who has just gotten her doctorate in Sociology was interested in witnessing the many things I have at this particular parish. She, like me, noted the vast numbers of youthful families and young adults who packed the church. Only weeks ago, and for the last few years I’ve been commenting to anyone near me in church that the grey hair throughout the other parishes is stunning.
More traditional or orthodox parishes I see lots of young people
More modern parishes around me, I see lots of gray hair.
What’s up with that? My cousin noted it as well and was rather amazed. She has to leave the area to go to another state for a job she just took and now she is looking up more traditional parishes in her area. She’s in her late 30’s and I in my early 40’s and look at what we are suddenly attracted to, like many others even younger than us.
One only needs to look at the young faces on EWTN in those traditional masses to see where a new trend is headed. Count me in! In fact, EWTN is probably thrusting people into desiring this type of Mass. My parish, Assumption Grotto puts as much Latin into the Latin Mass as it can, including most or all of the songs, the Confiteor, Gloria, Credo, and other common prayers. I love it! After a lifetime of praying these things, I can honestly say that I am beginning to recognize the words and understand Latin after just 4 weeks.
S
SnorterLuster
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
hy·poc·ri·sy (hĭ-pŏk’rĭ-sē)
n., pl. -sies.
1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.
Apparently you can’t.
hy·poc·ri·sy (hĭ-pŏk’rĭ-sē)
n., pl. -sies.
1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.
Q
QUICUMQUE_VULT
Guest
Thank you SnorterLuster!Apparently you can’t.
hy·poc·ri·sy (h?-p?k’r?-s?)
n., pl. -sies.
1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.
You just made my day!
I am getting so tired of this troll.
It seems to be more emboldened since making A very obvious alliance in the “East”
If you get my drift…
B
Brendan
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
Actually, kneeling for Communion is a praxis, not a doxa, so it can’t be unothrodox. Orthodoxy, by definition, only relates to doxa (beliefs) not praxis (practices).
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EJ79
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
With all due respect, I find it interesting that you did not comment on Mahony’s Gay Pride Day Mass and his blatant disregard to the authority of CDW’s “Redemptionis Sacramentum,” which was written by Papal Mandate. It was also the CDW that clarified that while the USCCB has establised standing as the norm for the reception of Communion in the U.S., that no one may deny communion to those that kneel. I would say that nobody is unorthodox for choosing to receive in this manner - and apparently the CDW would agree.
I myself prefer a traditional Novus Ordo, but I see nothing wrong with having the beautiful Traditional Latin Mass restored and fully reintegrated into the Church’s life as a rite of its own…AND apparently the new Pope concurs. This would heal many wounds - and I personally feel that if the Novus Ordo could coexist side by side with the Missal of 1962, then it would shed much needed light as to what authentic liturgy is, and could help the Novus Ordo to become a more perfect image of what Vatican II REALLY intended for the liturgy. Even Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre signed Vatican II’s Constitution of the Liturgy.
Ofcourse, this poses a great threat to those who would not want this to happen, this is the only explanation I can give to the type of bullying that is occuring in Orange and other places.
Cardinal Ratzinger, referring to anymosity against the Tridentine Mass and those who are attached to it, has said that a Christian community calls its very being into question if it rejects what for so many centuries was considered its most sacred possession. He is now Pope. We should not gloat, but we can certainly rejoice that justice will likely be shown to this immemorial rite of Mass during this pontificate. Amen!
(I apologize for quoting Ratzinger loosely, I don’t have the quote in front of me but if someone does, can you please contribute it?)
Perhaps I should have been clearer - I meant MY generation, generation X and Y’ers… I was 6 in 1986, when Mahony “was in place” … I am 25 now, so I’d say that 1986-2005 would well include “my” generation. I don’t feel that I am being disrespectful to His Eminence - but like many Catholics I am alarmed at many of his actions and the harm he is doing to his diocese and the Church. I sincerily and respectfully pray for him and I am the first to be against any personal attacks against his person - he is a bishop of the Church and must be respected as such, regardless of the fact that I may strongly disagree with him.
With all due respect, I find it interesting that you did not comment on Mahony’s Gay Pride Day Mass and his blatant disregard to the authority of CDW’s “Redemptionis Sacramentum,” which was written by Papal Mandate. It was also the CDW that clarified that while the USCCB has establised standing as the norm for the reception of Communion in the U.S., that no one may deny communion to those that kneel. I would say that nobody is unorthodox for choosing to receive in this manner - and apparently the CDW would agree.
I myself prefer a traditional Novus Ordo, but I see nothing wrong with having the beautiful Traditional Latin Mass restored and fully reintegrated into the Church’s life as a rite of its own…AND apparently the new Pope concurs. This would heal many wounds - and I personally feel that if the Novus Ordo could coexist side by side with the Missal of 1962, then it would shed much needed light as to what authentic liturgy is, and could help the Novus Ordo to become a more perfect image of what Vatican II REALLY intended for the liturgy. Even Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre signed Vatican II’s Constitution of the Liturgy.
Ofcourse, this poses a great threat to those who would not want this to happen, this is the only explanation I can give to the type of bullying that is occuring in Orange and other places.
Cardinal Ratzinger, referring to anymosity against the Tridentine Mass and those who are attached to it, has said that a Christian community calls its very being into question if it rejects what for so many centuries was considered its most sacred possession. He is now Pope. We should not gloat, but we can certainly rejoice that justice will likely be shown to this immemorial rite of Mass during this pontificate. Amen!
(I apologize for quoting Ratzinger loosely, I don’t have the quote in front of me but if someone does, can you please contribute it?)
A
Angels_Watchin
Guest
Thank you so much for that beautiful, heartfelt post.
Oh, the holiness, reverence, youth…
I wish I could find it. I’m sure you recall the fabulous photo of the young seminarians when Cardinal Ratzinger was named pope - the one in particular of the young man with his fist clenched, it looked like he was saying, “Yeaaaaa…”.
If anyone would post it - That’s what the church has to look forward to!!
Yeaaaaa!
Angel
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GloriaPatri4
Guest
to read article in its entirety click on link below
http://www.christorchaos.com/FiftyYearsofPriestlyZeal.html
Dr. Thomas A. Droleskey is the President and Chairman of Christ or Chaos, Inc. Hundreds of his articles appeared in The Wanderer, the oldest weekly national Catholic newspaper, between 1992 and 2000. He is a contributor to The Latin Mass: A Journal of Catholic Culture, which is published by Keep the Faith, Inc., of Ramsey, New Jersey. Droleskey’s articles have appeared in the American Life League’s Celebrate Life magazine. He is currently a columnist for The Remnant. Other articles of his appear on www.seattlecatholic.com.
O
otm
Guest
It might be better to say that you did not observe changes. Whether or not he did much one way or another is at best difficult to tell unless one is fairly deeply involved in the archdiocese on a level generally above that of a parishoner. Changes can be made that are not of particularly high visibility if they are made quietly; and given the general tendency to make mountains out of molehills by certain groups, quiet process is a very wise decision.
It is far too easy to lump someone under a category if they don’t meet immediate expectations; particularly if they are working quietly and effectively, as opposed to creating a major uproar.
It was your charge that Archbishop Lavada is liberal; and I suspect that the charge is made more out of frustration than content, having had him as Archbishop in Oregon longer, I believe, than you folks had him down there.
I can accept that you may be frustrated; possibly even very frustrated. However, you may wish to step back and take a longer look before you categorize him. Given that the Pope has chosen him to head the Congregation the Pope previously held, when you make a statement about Lavada, by implication you also make a statement about the Pope.
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otm
Guest
The Eucharist was not generally reserved in Churches for the first 8 or 9 centuries; then it started to be reserved, but the tabernacle was not in the center of the church; that came a while later.
Liturgically, there is a conflict between the Eucharist present prior to the Consecration. Part of the action of the Mass, the Consecration, is to make the Eucharist (Christ) present; that in part is why the priest is supposed to Consecrate enough Hosts for the Mass and Communion, and not excessively more.
In many European churches, the tabernacle is not in the center of the church. Further, where there is Eucharistic Adoration, particularly 24 hour Eucharistic Adoration, it is much easier to accomplish and much more intimate to have it in a chapel; one does not have to light a large church during the night, nor heat it, and in a small chapel, one is closer to the Eucharist physically.
O
otm
Guest
Hmm. Strange, one of the proposals herein was to have a traveling TLM, as it would expose more people to it, and engender more interest and demand… So you are saying that doesn’t work?
J
JNB
Guest
Nope, and please do not put words in my mouth. I did not say that Abp. Levada was a liberal, please re read my post. What I said is in terms of being an administartor, he didnt do much on the ground level for the SF Archdiocese, and please re read what I said that he inherrited a large mess from Abp. Quinn. IN his favor, Abp. Levada didnt defy the Vatican, unlike Abp. Quinn did. Also no implications about Pope Benidict XVI.
otm:
O
otm
Guest
Oops!
My apologies! My post was to Fogny, and you picked it up; I didn’t re-read my post but assumed I was addressing the poster to whom the comment you quoted was addressed.
I do, however, stand by the fact that it can be hard to fairly discern what the bishop is doing, if he doesn’t do it in a fashion that attracts a lot of attention. And from what I observed of Lavada, he did not go out of his way to attract attention; but he definitely had a hand on what was going on, and made his (name removed by moderator)ut. I would presume he did the same down there.
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