Bishop punishes traditional/orthodox parish

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otm:
Although the bishop, s leader can have some impact, he is one person trying to change the tide. The problem with vocations is one that runds deep and has numerous and long term causes. Put George or Chaput or Burke in LA, and I would guess that the change would not be statisticaly significant for some time.

Voctions will come where parishes are centered in prayer and the life of Christ. They may occur elsewere too, as the Spirit moves where He will; but the support system elsewhere is almost non-existent. I don’t think the bishop is going to have much impact on any one parish, if he has 300 or more to contend with; in fact, not much with 1/3 of that.
Quite true.

I’ll also add that while Cardinal George has his hands full in Chicago, ABp. Chaput (as good as an ABp. as he is) faces no where near the demands that Cardinal Mahony does.

In fact, the demands of being the ABp. of Los Angeles might well cause ABp. Chaput to be viewed in a totally different light…
 
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otm:
Originally Posted by Swiss Guard:

‘I’ve noticed the only people who object to the terms modernist or liberal are those who are modernist or liberal.’

Perhaps because you label them such? I object, and you don’t know me well enough to be able to label me.

Both of those terms have some truth, and some judgementalism in them. I object because they are used as a dismissive label that is applied all too often simply because someone doesn’t like what is being said, not because what is being said is outside the parameters of tolerance the Church exercises…
Very, very true. One can almost gauge the caliber of someone’s argument by the misuse and overuse of these labels…
 
Deacon Ed said:
Bishop Brown, in respecting the priest who was there, allowed this situation to continue until the priest reached retirement age, and then he decided that the conditions for permitting the Mass of Pius V under the Ecclesia Dei indult did not exist. That is, this group of people constantly lashed out at the teachings of Vatican II and at the bishop himself. Therefore, according to the directives of *Ecclesia Dei *and in accordance with the mandate of the bishop to regulate the liturgy in his diocese, he choose to replace the Mass of Pius V with the Mass of Paul VI – but in Latin.
Angels Watchin:
The following is from Ecclesia Dei, 1988:

To the bishops especially it pertains, by reason of their pastoral mission, to exercise the important duty of a clear-sighted vigilance full of charity and firmness, so that this fidelity may be everywhere safeguarded.(7)

To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations. In this matter I ask support of the Bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the Church.

By virtue of my Apostolic Authority I Decree … respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition, by a wide and generous application of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See, for the use of the Roman Missal … of 1962.” (Emphasis added.)
Angels Watchin:
Where is Bishop Brown’s “charity” for “safeguarding” this '“fidelity” for the 1300 Catholics, diocese-wide, who signed a petition requesting that the Tridentine Mass remain available at St. Mary’s? Where is his “guaranteed respect for their rightful aspirations”? Or his “wide and generous application of the directives issued…”?
Dear Angel,

Thank you for posting the Ecclesia Dei, 1988:

Do you suppose it was because of the small minority of people who “lashed out” as the Deacon mentioned in his post that the bishop decided to CAN the whole TLM and punish everyone at St. Mary’s?
 
Deacon Ed:
It is true that they have an administrator, and they will soon have a new administrator.

Deacon Ed
Angels Watchin:
An administrator has NO authority at a parish - Bishop Brown has even taken away the celebrating priest’s RIGHTFUL AUTHORITY to NOT require a sign of peace by the faithful.
Angels Watchin:
And the new administrator who has been assigned has a 6 YEAR assignment. An administrator for the next 6 years for a parish that has thrived for 25 years under one pastor, Fr. Johnson, and has existed as a Catholic parish since 1912 and currently has over 1600 registered families? *An administrator who has *no decision making power for his particular flock. **Why? **

Ans:*** It gives the bishop total power over every decision at the parish.***

Could it be that the bishop is planning to shut down St. Mary’s? This is the only reason that I can see for not assigning a Pastor there. The property is worth millions since it’s just a few blocks from the beach. The bishop needs to find someway put back the money which was lost when they paid off that 100 million dollar lawsuit and let us not forget about the costly new Cathedral which will be built soon.
 
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GloriaPatri4:
Could it be that the bishop is planning to shut down St. Mary’s? This is the only reason that I can see for not assigning a Pastor there. The property is worth millions since it’s just a few blocks from the beach. The bishop needs to find someway put back the money which was lost when they paid off that 100 million dollar lawsuit and let us not forget about the costly new Cathedral which will be built soon.

Gloria,

Why are they going ahead with the catherdral? The results of the Bishop’s survey were overwhelmingly against it.
 
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JNB:
Hey Crusader, aka Purifcator, please do not troll, how many IDs will you get banned from?
Crusader
Nota Bene
Pariah Pirana
Purificator

Which ones am I missing?

James
 
Angels Watchin:

I am visiting the area again this week and attended Holy Mass at St. Mary’s this morning. The celebrant was Fr. Mackin. He distributed Holy Communion at the rail, and under only one species. It appeared to be unchanged from earlier visits. Is it only the Sunday Masses that were affected?

Also, is the NO Latin Mass celebrated ad orientem?
 
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otm:
Perhaps because you label them such? I object, and you don’t know me well enough to be able to label me.
Both of those terms have some truth, and some judgementalism in them. I object because they are used as a dismissive label that is applied all too often simply because someone doesn’t like what is being said, not because what is being said is outside the parameters of tolerance the Church exercises.
Hey, I’ve been labeled a trad on this forum and anyone who knows me knows I’m anything but a trad. I don’t object to labels, just make sure you’re labeling me correctly.

I’m drawing on my experience that those who don’t like certain labels is because it describes them. I know you well enough from this forum to know you’re not a modernist.

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otm:
I have seen Mahoney, for example, called a heretic within this forum, and I have seen the Church haul heretics to heel. Mahoney hasn’t been hauled.
I’ve never called Cardinal Mahony a heretic. Now, if I find out he starts teaching there is no such thing as purgatory, original sin is really the original blessing, or the fundamental option theory regarding mortal sin, then I’ll call him a heretic.
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otm:
You may not like him, but your charity might urge you to at least appear to be less judgemental.I have heard some definitions of the word 'liberal", but I have to admit that is a new one.
I know people who live in the Los Angeles archdiocese who are attempting to get a Tridentine Mass. I have more of a knowledge of the situation in Los Angeles than one would normally have living in Chicago.

**As for the definition of liberal, that is what a true liberal is, in the political sense of the term. Liberatarians are really the true political liberals, since they believe people should have the liberty exercise their free will as long as it doesn’t have a direct effect on others. If a person believes abortion is acceptable, a person is free to have one. If a person believes abortion is murder, a person shouldn’t have one. Abortion is neither objectively right or wrong according to this philosophy. No black or white, just shades of gray. This was Cardinal Bernardin’s philosophy, although he was much more influenced by the modernist element in the Church, such as Call to Action. **

Continued in next post…
 
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otm:
Lets see, Cardinal McCarrik said that the Vatican’s response was very nuanced about the ability of the Church to deny Communion to, for example, a politician voting to sustain abortion. The same would apply to the rainbow sash wearers. Perhaps Cardinal Mahoney, being the bishop, may have communications to which you are not privileged, and has made the pastoral decision to not deny Comunion. Unless you know at least as much as the Cardinal does about the situation, is it possible that you do not know enough to adequately judge?
Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on the subject:

1385 To respond to this invitation we must prepare ourselves for so great and so holy a moment. St. Paul urges us to examine our conscience: “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.”[216] Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.
christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/euch2.html#BANQUET

Rainbow sashers are homosexuals who do not accept the teaching of the Catholic Church regarding homosexuality. They know what the Church teaches, so they cannot claim ignorance. By wearing the sash, they are saying they are practicing homosexuals, which means they are conscious of a grave sin. It is reasonable to believe Cardinal Mahony is ignoring Church teaching on this issue.

As for abortion, here is what the Code of Canon Law says:

Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P57.HTM

How many abortions were procured because Catholic politicians voted to allow abortion? Again, it is reasonable to believe that any bishop or priest who allows such a person to receive Holy Communion is ignoring Church teaching on this matter.

I hope Pope Benedict XVI instructs the bishops in their duties so the whole world can see those who are united with the Bishop of Rome and those who oppose him.

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otm:
Or is it possible that Cardinal Mahoney has acted within the leeway of a pastoral decision the Rome allows, and you just disagree with his pastoral decision?OK, I’ll agree with you, you are not being judgemental…

Except that where I come from, if it has feathers, and quacks like a duck, and flies, it is not a 'possum…
It’s possible that $1 million could fall from the sky and land in my lap. Anything is possible, but is it probable? I would say it’s probable Cardinal Mahony is following his own will rather than the teaching of the Church. Unlike liberals, I don’t have a problem with being judgmental (I also don’t have a problem spelling it either 😃 ). If we had more people being judgmental about priests who sexually molest teenage boys, we could have avoided the whole abuse problem in the Church.

Now, just so you don’t label me judgmental, not because I care but because you don’t like labels, I’m not calling you liberal. I’m just saying from my experience liberals are the ones who cry about people being judgmental.

Except, like you said, if it has feathers, quacks like a duck and flies, it’s not a possum.
 
I believe that whatever Ecclesia Dei said must be followed especially when John Paul the Great said that **“respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of all those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition, by a wide and generous application of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See for the use of the Roman Missal according to the typical edition of 1962” **
- Apostolic Letter Ecclesia Dei

So every bishop must follow this directive and whatever comes from the Holy See must be followed without change or re-interpritation and without grumbling or excuses. So if there are priests who can and want to offer the Mass in Latin with all the practices then it should be allowed and if there is a great wanting for traditional masses complete with kneeling at communion and ad orientam then it should be given to the faithful.
Also we should be careful not to attack bishops & priests. Instead direct them with charity and not anger and we should always pray for the priests and bishops and offer sacrifices for them. Also all liturgical abuse should be reported.
 
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otm:
Although the bishop, s leader can have some impact, he is one person trying to change the tide. The problem with vocations is one that runds deep and has numerous and long term causes. Put George or Chaput or Burke in LA, and I would guess that the change would not be statisticaly significant for some time.

Voctions will come where parishes are centered in prayer and the life of Christ. They may occur elsewere too, as the Spirit moves where He will; but the support system elsewhere is almost non-existent. I don’t think the bishop is going to have much impact on any one parish, if he has 300 or more to contend with; in fact, not much with 1/3 of that.
I wish we had Archbishop Chaput as the Future Archbishop of the Archdiocese of New York: HE is my favorite Bishop!!
 
I don’t think Priests should have to learn how to say the Latin Mass if they don’t want to but if there is a priest that wants to say it they should be able to have one mass during the weekend where they can say it like our Cathedral does. Sunday at noon they have the Latin Mass here.
 
It is important to realize that discrimination exists within the Church. If a more “liberal” hierarchy is incharge, they will set the tone to suit their agenda. When they presume to assimilate their beliefs as “the only way” (without consideration for other, more traditional believers), they refuse to offer alternatives.

Thankfully, I live in an area where Latin Mass is offered twice a month with the support of the bishop. The sad part is that it took me 2 years to find it.
 
Spirit Daily

**Move To Revive Latin Mass Reflects Deep **Vatican Concerns On Liturgical Abuse

By Michael H. Brown

The move by the Vatican toward permitting wider use of the Latin Mass can be seen as a reflection of views long held by officials like Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, widely thought to be the Pope’s closest official adviser. As such, they also may be viewed as a reflection of the pontiff’s own thinking and an indication of his serious questions about abuses with the new or *Novus Ordo *Mass in the wake of Vatican II.

Earlier this month the Vatican allowed the first celebration of the Latin or “Tridentine Rite” Mass at St. Peter’s in twenty years and is widely expected to issue a document (with an “indult”) before Christmas permitting priests around the world to celebrate the old rite without the express permission of bishops. In that rite, which dates back to the Council of Trent in 1570, the priest says high Mass facing east with his back to the congregation, intoning the Latin liturgy. Up to now, such Masses have been few and far between, with many bishops frowning upon or outright quashing them.

The Vatican still views the new Mass as possessing significant advantages but has been concerned by the way many priests have taken liberties with it – in many instances stripping the liturgy of its mystery. Cardinal Ratzinger, who meets privately with the Pope for several hours each Friday, has long expressed discontent with the way Masses are now handled. In a book called The Ratzinger Report, the Cardinal – prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith – said that he “shudders at the lackluster face of the post-conciliar liturgy as it has become, or one is simply bored with its hankering after banality and its lackluster artistic standards.” He lamented that “many treasures that were intact have been squandered away.”

“The liturgy is not a show, a spectacle, requiring brilliant producers and talented actors,” he said in interviews with Italian journalist Vittorio Messori. “The life of the liturgy does not consist in ‘pleasant’ surprises and attractive ‘ideas’ but in solemn repetitions.”

As for the need for active participation on the part of those in the pews, Ratzinger has remarked that “the concept is no doubt correct. But the way it has been applied following the Council has exhibited a fatal narrowing of perspective. The impression arose that there was only ‘active participation’ when there was discernible external activity – speaking, singing, preaching, reading, shaking hands. It was forgotten that the Council also included silence under actuosa participatio, for silence facilitates a really deep, personal participation, allowing us to listen inwardly to the Lord’s word.”

While the new Mass allows for more contact between priest and congregants, and presents the liturgy in native language (the removal of which would be opposed by many Catholics), the rite has been abused by clerics who have relaxed reverence toward the Eucharist, introduced clanging music, stripped altars of their statues, and relocated or even removed the tabernacle. Those who sought to attend the Latin Rite, noted Ratzinger, have been treated as “lepers.”

“The most important thing today is that we should regain respect for the liturgy and for the fact that it is not to be manipulated,” he wrote in a second book, God and the World, adding that “unauthorized fabrication” should “vanish.” He said that priests should perform their ministries as a service to the mystery of the liturgy “and not want to invent and manufacture something better, like experts who are almighty in and of themselves.”

While on at least one occasion Cardinal Ratzinger has virtually expressed his wish the the liturgy had never been so radically changed, he cites advantages to the Novus Ordo. When Messori asked him if Masses should be said in Latin again, the prefect replied, “That is no longer going to be possible as a general practice, and perhaps it is not desirable as such. At least it is clear, I would say, that the Liturgy of the Word should be in people’s mother tongue. But otherwise I would be in favor of a new openness toward the use of Latin.” That openness will now be expressed in the expected indult, which may in its turn reverse the Church’s course and bring elements of the older rite back into the liturgy.

Resources: Secrets of the Eucharist]

Ratzinger’s book, God and the World, will be available soon in the Spiritdaily bookstore

spiritdaily.org/MHB%20editorials/ratzingermass.htm
 
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CathMass:
I believe that whatever Ecclesia Dei said must be followed especially when John Paul the Great said that **“respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of all those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition, by a wide and generous application of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See for the use of the Roman Missal according to the typical edition of 1962” **
- Apostolic Letter Ecclesia Dei
Code:
So every bishop must follow this directive and whatever comes from the Holy See must be followed without change or re-interpritation and without grumbling or excuses. So if there are priests who can and want to offer the Mass in Latin with all the practices then it should be allowed and if there is a great wanting for traditional masses complete with kneeling at communion and ad orientam then it should be given to the faithful.
Also we should be careful not to attack bishops & priests. Instead direct them with charity and not anger and we should always pray for the priests and bishops and offer sacrifices for them. Also all liturgical abuse should be reported.
I agree wholeheartedly! And when bishops say, “but nobody knows how to say the Tridentine mass - so we can’t have it in this diocese…” it appears that the Holy Father’s response was,

" Every priest in every diocese in every country in the world for over 1500 years said the Tridentine mass.

If you don’t know it and people in your diocese request it, then learn it, give it to them and be GENEROUS about it."

Angel
 
…i bet this had something to do with it
"That is, this group of people constantly lashed out at the teachings of Vatican II and at the bishop himself."
 
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allhers:
…i bet this had something to do with it
"That is, this group of people constantly lashed out at the teachings of Vatican II and at the bishop himself."
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redkim:
Yes, he should. No explanation necessary! 😛
I don’t understand. Are you saying that bishops should take away the TLM from good faithful TLM Catholics because of the actions of a small minority?

This poor little half empty church which up until last year was a thriving community has been totally dimantled.

Maybe what is happening here is someone could it be the bishop? is killing two birds with one stone. The one bird a traditional orthodox Catholic community which needs to be done away with the other bird need money to pay off lawsuits. No community = no church, Sell the church because there is no community = pay off the lawsuits.

If our sheperd has plans of keeping St.Mary’s why is it that there is still no permanent pastor?
 
I have attended St. Mary’s by Sea before and have many friends there I still talk to constantly.

Right now, the parish is being forced to have “Eucharistic Ministers”. The people who decided stay do not want communion in both species, they do not demand the Chalice and do not want it and yet the previous parish administrator after Fr. Johnson’s retirement is forcing them to have Euchristic ministers to supply the Chalice. Not only that, at the English Masses, the altar rails are no longer used and people are now forced to go in a line making it difficult to kneel. As for the Latin Novus Ordo Mass, I they have not touched it yet with the exception of lay readers.

Now, they are introducing lay readers in the Mass, the parishioners do not want it, at least the majority.

This was done by one of the most “conservative” priest in Orange County.

Here is our Bishop Brown, anyone see RS violations?:
http://www.recongress.org/2005/pix/closingam/med_Liturgy A1-31.jpg
 
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