Bishop punishes traditional/orthodox parish

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GloriaPatri4:
Since the Orange County Register article below was written St. Mary’s by the Sea parish has yet to have a permanent pastor instead the bishop has assigned a priest to act as a temporary/interim administrator. The congregation has been almost cut in half since the Latin Mass devotees are now forced to travel 30 to 50 miles to the only other church in our diocese which offers the Tridentine Mass. The current priest has been ordered by bishop Brown to cut out most of the Mass rituals and church traditions (no more daily confessions, discouraged parishioners from receiving communion at the altar rail, Communion is now offered under both species)

There have been at least three priests who have offered to celebrate the Latin Mass but were
turned down.

I am not a parishioner at this parish but I have many friends who are and I think it’s sad what is happening there.

The Catholic Church’s great divide

lewrockwell.com/ocregister/catholic-divide.html

thelaity.com/emailblasts/tridentinemass.htm

losangelesmission.com/ed/articles/2004/0406rk.htm
That’s interesting. Less than 50 miles from you in the Archdiocese of LA, they struggle to keep the Tridentine Mass going in at least one parish – too few attendees.

Before you make some odd comments about “Mahony”, I’ll add that I am talking about Old Mission San Fernando (a gorgeous setting for a Tridentine Mass) celebrated by one of the premiere Catholic historians in the USA, Msgr. Francis Weber, the “Old Country Priest.”

Pretty scary when they can’t fill the Old Mission at least once a month given the fact that they are surrounded by about 4.5 MILLION Catholics in the Archdiocese…
 
Deacon Ed:
BTW, the Mass of Pius V is still offered at Mission San Juan Capistrano which is 28 miles away from St. Mary’s by the Sea.

Deacon Ed
Dear Deacon Ed,

BTW, Mission San Juan Capistrano is only 28 miles away if you can afford to pay $7.00 round trip on the 73 toll road otherwise it’s about 35 to 40 miles from St. Mary’s when taking the freeways. There are parishioners who were already making a 20 to 30 mile trek to St. Mary’s now their travel distance is doubled. Considering our gasoline prices in Orange County are about $2.50 a gallon many TLM Catholics can’t afford to go to that Mass.
 
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JNB:
ByzCath, I do not know why you slam, and yes I mean slam Catholics who prefer traditional liturgy every chance you get, again all the while your liturgy has been largely left intact.

Again, let me fill in some background on Fr. Johnson. Yes, when he came to St Marys by the Sea, he made changes, he had the altar rails put back in and distributed communion at the rail, other than that, no changes. Nothing he changed was a rejection of Vatican II, nothing at all, and again, he did not celebrate the Tridentine mass untill he got the permission of his Bishop in 93 or so. So between 79 to 98, he only celebrated the Novus Ordo. If he chased anyone away, it is probably they could not accept orthodoxy, not because some of the then fairly minor changes he did to how the mass was celebrated(again everythig was clearly within the guidelines).

Being a Byzantine Catholc, you of all people should know by history how ill treatment of Byzantine Catholics chased them out of the church 100 years ago. What Bishop Brown is doing now to these traditional and traditional leaning Catholics is no different than what the infamous Abp. Ireland of the St. Paul archdiocese did to Easteren Catholics.

I have no idea why you feel the need to bash people who prefer the traditional mass, but I suggest you get sympathy for the plight that so many Catholics are going though right now because of Bishops like Bp. Brown.
Based on what the Church instructs, it is UNorthodox to distribute communion to those keeling at the altar rail during the Pauline Mass based on the GIRM:

"The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm."

You illustrate perfectly how some feel they know “what is best” even if it does not follow what the Church directs. Keep in mind that kills the credibility…
 
Just to clarify - this priest slapped his hand brusquely on my mother’s shoulder as she turned around to walk back to her pew. He did not slap her on the face, nor was it in such a way as to inflict physical harm. It was brusque enough for many people to witness it and gasp in shock. She was not physically hurt by it at all, but emotionally and spiritually you can imagine the pain she felt at being humiliated by a priest like that during Communion at Mass…simply for receiving on the tongue as is her right.

I wanted to report it to the diocese since the priest offered no apology and actually implied that it was my mother’s fault for not receiving in the hand the times that she came to a Mass where he was the celebrant. Unfortunately, I was only 16 at the time, and when I told my own pastor at our parish (different from where the incident occured), he suggested that we let the matter go and simply pray for the priest, which we did. Regrettably, a few months later this priest was promoted as pastor of another suburban parish, where he still is today. He would routinely ad lib the prayers of the Mass and impose other liturgical abuses on his community (mostly elderly) and would give people dirty looks if they wanted to receive on the tongue - so as to coerce them to receive in the hand only. I don’t stand in judgement of him, but I think his actions speak for themselves.

Our archdiocese (Washington, DC) is fairly orthodox and not particularly liberal as compared to others, but I must say that many “routine” liturgical abuses occur here, and they are not being dealt with. We do have, however, many younger priests and seminarians who see a great need to change things, even if the chancery turns a blind eye to what goes on. Pray for our bishops and for our priests.
 
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EJ79:
Just to clarify - this priest slapped his hand brusquely on my mother’s shoulder as she turned around to walk back to her pew. He did not slap her on the face, nor was it in such a way as to inflict physical harm.
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I’m glad I was mistaken.
God Bless your Mother.
 
Pariah Pirana:
That’s interesting. Less than 50 miles from you in the Archdiocese of LA, they struggle to keep the Tridentine Mass going in at least one parish – too few attendees.

Before you make some odd comments about “Mahony”, I’ll add that I am talking about Old Mission San Fernando (a gorgeous setting for a Tridentine Mass) celebrated by one of the premiere Catholic historians in the USA, Msgr. Francis Weber, the “Old Country Priest.”

Pretty scary when they can’t fill the Old Mission at least once a month given the fact that they are surrounded by about 4.5 MILLION Catholics in the Archdiocese…
With all due respect, I don’t find it “scary” at all. The faithful of Los Angeles have had liberal liturgy imposed on them for at least a generation now. Many people don’t know what reverent liturgy is anymore, because they almost never get to encounter it. People cannot respond to something they do not encounter. I’m sure that many people have never even heard of the Tridentine Mass in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. “Gaither Faithfully Together” imposes many things that seem to be at odds with the directives of the Congregation for Divine Worship (esp. more recent ones), with the will of our late Pope, and especially our current one.

I think what’s at issue with the situation in Orange and in other places is how orthodoxy and rightful aspirations to traditional, faithful liturgical celebrations are discouraged; those who aspire to these things are bullied and mistreated, while those who dissent in one way or another are rewarded and defended.

When the cardinal-archbishop of Los Angeles sees fit to celebrate a Mass on the occasion of Gay Pride LA and refuses to comply with “Redemptionis Sacramentum” on several points… it is safe to say that he is depriving his flock of something vital for the faith - orthodoxy, truth, and beauty. Sadly, I think anyone in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles or the Diocese of Orange can safely phone Rome and say “Houston, we have a problem.”
 
Deacon Ed:
It is true that they have an administrator, and they will soon have a new administrator.

Deacon Ed
Why is it that after a year St. Mary’s still does not have a permanent pastor? Aren’t there two priests in residence? Should the parishioners at St. Mary’s expect a new adminstrator every year but never a pastor? I’m looking in from the outside and it seems to me that certain people up at Marywood do wish that St. Mary’s and all their rituals and traditions would simply disappear. What better way to make a parish disappear than to strip away all the things that mattered to them which has forced many to go elsewhere and then let them know that they are not important enough to have a permanent pastor installed.
 
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JNB:
ByzCath, I do not know why you slam, and yes I mean slam Catholics who prefer traditional liturgy every chance you get, again all the while your liturgy has been largely left intact.
I have nothing against those who prefer the Mass of Pius V. I do not call it the traditional liturgy as the Church sets the liturgy as a matter of discipline and I find it strange that people call a discipline choice a matter of tradition.

I would ask you to show proof of your statement that I “slam” them, but you will not be able to. Those that I do have issues with are the ones who either support schismatic groups and/or claim that the current Eucharistic rite of the Roman Catholic Church is invalid, deficent, and/or evil in someway.

As for you comment about our Byzantine Liturgy, you show some ignorance there but I will leave that discussion to another day/topic.

I think Pariah Pirana’s reply sums it up pretty much.
Pariah Pirana:
Based on what the Church instructs, it is UNorthodox to distribute communion to those keeling at the altar rail during the Pauline Mass based on the GIRM:

"The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm."

You illustrate perfectly how some feel they know “what is best” even if it does not follow what the Church directs. Keep in mind that kills the credibility…
 
Pariah Pirana:
You illustrate perfectly how some feel they know “what is best” even if it does not follow what the Church directs. Keep in mind that kills the credibility…
It also kills one’s credibility to use an ex post facto argument based on a quote from the US appendix of the GIRM only put into effect years after the timeframe mentioned had been concluded. You won’t be able to find that prohibition for the period from 1979-1998, and the insinuation of retroactive impropriety resembles the same anti-trad bias JNB was commenting on in the first place.
 
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Ray_Scheel:
It also kills one’s credibility to use an ex post facto argument based on a quote from the US appendix of the GIRM only put into effect years after the timeframe mentioned had been concluded. You won’t be able to find that prohibition for the period from 1979-1998, and the insinuation of retroactive impropriety resembles the same anti-trad bias JNB was commenting on in the first place.
But the fact remains that this is in effect now, which is what really matters.

As to the comment by JNB, it seems that this keeps being tossed out but there is no “anti-trad” bias here at all.

Those of us that keep being tared with such a libel are, as I said before, not against those who prefer the Mass of Pius V.

It seems that many who prefer that Mass love to attack those who prefer the normative Mass of the Roman Catholic Church.

Which seems to have occured at St Mary’s by the Sea, that is if we believe what Father Deacon Ed has told us, and I do.
 
**Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, comments on the Traditional Latin Mass: “I am of the opinion that the old rite should be granted much more generously to all those who desire it. It is impossible to see what could be dangerous or unacceptable about that. A community is calling its very being into question when it declares that what was its holiest and highest possession is strictly forbidden and when it makes the longing for it seem downright indecent.” **
(Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger In His Book, “Salt Of The Earth”, Ignatius Press, 1997)
 
from article
freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1132744/posts

Retirement Means an End to Ancient Mass

A Huntington Beach parish valued the 6th century service in Latin. It was used worldwide until a change in the 1960s.


By Richard Fausset and Joy Buchanan, Times Staff Writers

http://images.latimes.com/media/photo/2004-05/12570916.jpg

Conservatively dressed Roman Catholics packed into a tiny wooden church a few blocks from the sand in Huntington Beach on Sunday to pray and chant in Latin, and to celebrate the priest who delivered them from all that they believe is lax, laid-back and touchy-feely in their religion.

They came to say goodbye to Father Daniel Johnson, the 75-year-old retiring priest who tripled the membership of this parish with his emphasis on the church’s centuries-old traditions. Chief among them was introduction of the Latin Tridentine Mass, the ancient, highly choreographed rite that for hundreds of years was the only Mass celebrated by Catholics worldwide.

Because of Johnson’s retirement, the Diocese of Orange has decided to stop offering the Tridentine Mass at St. Mary’s by the Sea, saddening conservative Catholics who came from all over Orange County to experience the Eucharist the way it was celebrated for generations of sinners and saints: with all the pageantry and plainsong and traditional language of Rome.

Starting next week, St. Mary’s will continue to hold Sunday Masses in Latin, but it will be in the form of the modern Mass, with different prayers from those of the Tridentine service.

The Tridentine Mass is “more holy somehow,” said parishioner Georg Christa, 70, who learned the Mass as an altar boy in Augsberg, Germany. “The reason we have problems in the church is that we’re getting step-by-step away from the holiness.”

Parishioner James Lewis, 64, said he chose the Tridentine Mass because he did not want to be subjected to the modern Mass, with its “peace hugs,” its “campfire music and hootenanny music.”

“I think that stuff is distracting,” he said. “It’s inappropriate for a holy Mass.”

The loss of the old Mass at St. Mary’s does not spell its end in Orange County, where two churches, St. Michael’s Abbey in Silverado Canyon and the Mission Basilica in San Juan Capistrano, still offer the service.

http://images.latimes.com/media/photo/2004-05/12570917.jpg

But the frustration of St. Mary’s parishioners and their fondness for Father Johnson’s conservative practices reflect a continuing tension in a religion seeking to maintain its relevance in the modern world without losing its reverence for tradition.

Believed to have existed since the 6th century, the Mass was officially standardized for Western churches by Pope Pius V during Rome’s Council of Trent in 1570. For hundreds of years, it was the only Mass celebrated by Catholics worldwide. Then, during the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s, a new service was introduced — using familiar languages and allowing priests to face their congregations — and has been in use ever since.
continued on next post
 
from article

The point, reformers argued then, was for the liturgy to be adjusted to fit individual priests’ styles and worshipers’ needs. Some conservative Catholics, however, were outraged, arguing that the Mass should not have been changed. Some priests even continued using the Tridentine Mass against the Church’s orders until 1984, when Pope John Paul II decreed that it could be celebrated with the permission of local bishops.

That was like a clarion call to Johnson, who introduced the Tridentine Mass at St. Mary’s in 1992. Johnson considers the old Mass a sacred liturgy symbolizing the Passion of Christ.

“I’m quite traditional,” said the man ordained in 1954 who calls himself a “simple parish” priest. “The greatest thing that a priest can do is the celebration of the holy Mass. Maybe the modern way isn’t the only way.”

Five years ago, Johnson — who was born to devout Catholic parents in Michigan and grew up in Los Angeles, where he served as an altar boy — developed a cancer on his ear that required multiple surgeries and more than 30 radiation treatments. More recently, he came down with Bell’s palsy, which paralyzed the right side of his face and prompted him to turn his favorite golf putter upside down for a cane. He plans to retire in Torrance with his brother.

Johnson stopped leading the church’s weekly Mass several weeks ago, when the disease began affecting his speech. But on Sunday, after altar boys helped him to his feet, he delivered a long, often passionate sermon in English summarizing the success he has had in bringing some of the lost traditions back to this church.

With his head listing to the right and his voice wasted with age, Johnson’s words were sometimes difficult to make out. But it was clear that he was no fan of New Age influences that have crept into some church services.

In the early church, he said, pagans were attracted by Christianity because Christians showed their love for one another. They didn’t say, “Look at how ecumenical they are, or look how they’re dialoguing with non-Catholics,” he said.

He also paid homage to the Tridentine Mass, which many parishioners say was a key to the expansion of St. Mary’s from 500 families to about 1,600 under Johnson’s 25 years of stewardship.

Johnson quoted theologian Frederick Faber, who once called the old Mass “the most beautiful thing this side of heaven.”

“I would agree with him,” Johnson said.

The 2 1/2-hour service was indeed a far cry from the “folk Masses” many U.S. Catholics have attended in recent decades. A sign at the door asked visitors to wear “proper dress,” and women were encouraged to wear lace veils over their heads.

At the beginning of Mass, 11 altar boys, most in red satin robes, announced the entrance of a coterie of priests with candles and incense. Father Justin Ramos, who said the Mass, walked down the aisle in a gold brocade cape.

Their arrival at the altar was marked by unadorned male voices from the choir that delivered Gregorian chant. Then Ramos walked back up the aisle, sprinkling the congregation with holy water that prompted members of the standing-room-only congregation to bow in waves.

In Latin, Ramos led a prayer for mercy and salvation:

“Ostende nobis, Domine, misericordiam tuam.”

“Et salutare tuum da nobis,” the worshipers responded.

http://images.latimes.com/media/photo/2004-05/12570920.jpg

Some church members followed the Mass in a missal that carried the English translation. French native Liliane Rains, 63, followed with a tattered Latin and French missal that once belonged to her father.

“When we went to Spain or Germany or Italy, it was in Latin, and always the same,” said Rains, who grew up in Bordeaux. “You went to Mass and you felt that you were home. It was a wonderful tie, and I think we should go back to it. It made Mass universal.”

Rains said she could understand why the church translated the Mass into different languages. Others took a stricter stance.

“Is this your first time going to a real Catholic Mass?” James Scott, 59, of Tustin asked a St. Mary’s visitor. “Well, this is what it really is. Everything else is garbage.”

Damian Garcia, a layman at the church, said he would miss the elements of the Tridentine Mass that give it its “vertical thrust,” or emphasis on the adoration of God.
continue reading at: freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1132744/posts
 
GloriaPatri4 said:
Since the Orange County Register article below was written St. Mary’s by the Sea parish has yet to have a permanent pastor instead the bishop has assigned a priest to act as a temporary/interim administrator. The congregation has been almost cut in half since the Latin Mass devotees are now forced to travel 30 to 50 miles to the only other church in our diocese which offers the Tridentine Mass. The current priest has been ordered by bishop Brown to cut out most of the Mass rituals and church traditions (no more daily confessions, discouraged parishioners from receiving communion at the altar rail, Communion is now offered under both species)

**There have been at least three priests who have offered to celebrate the Latin Mass but were **
turned down.

I am not a parishioner at this parish but I have many friends who are and I think it’s sad what is happening there.


The Catholic Church’s great divide

lewrockwell.com/ocregister/catholic-divide.html

thelaity.com/emailblasts/tridentinemass.htm

losangelesmission.com/ed/articles/2004/0406rk.htm

Where are the parishes where it is offered? Is TLM available in your parish?
 
Pariah Pirana:
Based on what the Church instructs, it is UNorthodox to distribute communion to those keeling at the altar rail during the Pauline Mass based on the GIRM:

"The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm."

You illustrate perfectly how some feel they know “what is best” even if it does not follow what the Church directs. Keep in mind that kills the credibility…
We have been though this route before Crusader, and no need to go over this territory again. Unless you want to get yet another one of your accounts suspended.
 
One, the kneeling for communion vs standing for communion debate has been done to death. The parish I belong to has only done the Novus Ordo since 1970 and we kneel for communion, along many others parishes including netmil(name removed by moderator)'s parish whose custom is to kneel for communion, and again its fine with the Vatican.

That said, as another poster has stated, in the old, pre 2002 GIRM, there was no normative communion posture, so what Fr. Johnson did was fully in line with GIRM of the day.

It seems you know little of your own rites history ByzCath, on how forced latinizations droves many out of the Catholic church 100 years ago, and also again, your rite is largely intact, and again, I think that gives you little room to speak on this matter. Again, its like someone in Groose Point MI telling someone in Detroit MI to tolerate crime and leave it to the authorities, no matter how unresponsive the authorities may be.

I do not fully know what issues you and Crusader have, but again, gettibng back to the subject at hand, the Bishop ignored a petition that had 1,000 singatures, he is forceing the parish at adopt liturgical changes that have not been mandated, the parish has lost half of its parishoners. This is even less pastoral than Cardinal Mahony, and the ill treatment of these Catholics smacks of how the Polish and Eastren Catholics were treated 100 years ago. Is that what you want?
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ByzCath:
I have nothing against those who prefer the Mass of Pius V. I do not call it the traditional liturgy as the Church sets the liturgy as a matter of discipline and I find it strange that people call a discipline choice a matter of tradition.

I would ask you to show proof of your statement that I “slam” them, but you will not be able to. Those that I do have issues with are the ones who either support schismatic groups and/or claim that the current Eucharistic rite of the Roman Catholic Church is invalid, deficent, and/or evil in someway.

As for you comment about our Byzantine Liturgy, you show some ignorance there but I will leave that discussion to another day/topic.

I think Pariah Pirana’s reply sums it up pretty much.
 
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Ignatius:
Where are the parishes where it is offered? Is TLM available in your parish?
In the Diocese of Orange the only parish that offers the TLM that I’m aware of is Mission San Juan Capistrano. There is another parish in Garden Grove which offers the TLM but I’m not sure it is valid since they do not have the approval of the bishop. St. Mary’s now offers the Novus Ordo Latin Mass as does St. Michael’s Abbey.

No, the TLM is not available in my parish.
 
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GloriaPatri4:
In the Diocese of Orange the only parish that offers the TLM that I’m aware of is Mission San Juan Capistrano. There is another parish in Garden Grove which offers the TLM but I’m not sure it is valid since they do not have the approval of the bishop.

No, the TLM is not available in my parish.
The chapel in Garden Grove is “independent” though not Sede, headed by Fr. Perez, who from last I heard is technically in good standing with the Instiute of Christ the King. There are around 700 parishoners who attend the 3 Sunday masses there. The fact that this chapel exists is a sad situation, and a replay of why so many Polish National Catholic church parishes existed in the first half of the 20th century. When a group of people are treated like dirt, dont except them to be charitable back.

What we need to do is pray that this situation resolves itself. Its sad that Bishops like Cardinal George, Abp. Burke, Abp. Chaput arent the norm, and even Cardinal Madia of Detroit, while he only recently granted the TLM indult, allowed a fair number of parishes that inserted Traditional elements into the Novus Ordo.
 
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