Bishop punishes traditional/orthodox parish

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When a dearly beloved practice like kneeling for Holy Communion can be yanked at the whim of a pastor or bishop, that is one of the most succinct arguments one can make in favor of the TLM. When all is said and done, the TLM offers more stability for those who like traditional practices.

Yes, one must obey lawful superiors. Yes, an unwelcome norm may be set by a national bishops’ conference. But why be frustrated by the need to be obedient? Why be so devoted to the possibly short-lived tenure of a pastor who swings to the traditional side? At a TLM, you don’t have to worry. As long as the indult persists at your location (granted, that is also far from a sure thing), you can be reasonably assured of a continuing reverent environment, AND you can enjoy the peace of mind of remaining faithful to Rome.

As much as I will defend the NO Latin Mass, and vernacular Masses celebrated with reverence, too much is ephemeral. Ten years ago, my former parish in downtown Detroit lost over 50% of its parishioners when a new pastor came in and started forcing unwelcome changes. By the time he was replaced by a more appropriate, traditional pastor, it was too late to win back most of the people who had left; they had made new homes elsewhere.

Incidentally, I visited St. Mary’s by the Sea in April, and they still distributed Holy Communion at the rail.
 
Pariah Pirana:
That’s interesting. Less than 50 miles from you in the Archdiocese of LA, they struggle to keep the Tridentine Mass going in at least one parish – too few attendees.

Before you make some odd comments about “Mahony”, I’ll add that I am talking about Old Mission San Fernando (a gorgeous setting for a Tridentine Mass) celebrated by one of the premiere Catholic historians in the USA, Msgr. Francis Weber, the “Old Country Priest.”

Pretty scary when they can’t fill the Old Mission at least once a month given the fact that they are surrounded by about 4.5 MILLION Catholics in the Archdiocese…
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You aren’t as versed in the TLM in LA as you seem to indicate. To attend the TLM in LA is to take a road trip every Sunday as it is offered in different churches every week in disparate parts of the archidiocese. "Less than 50 miles will get you to the TLM in San Pedro, but only on the 1st Sunday. The Mass at Mission San Fernando is also only offered the 1st Sunday.

Considering it is the largest archdiocese in the US, the TLM schedule could hardly be called “generous”.
 
Deacon Ed:
Since I am somewhat familiar with this situation (I’m in the Diocese of Orange) let me offer some comments.
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First, the parishioners at this parish screamed bloody murder when the former pastor was assigned there and set about changing everything in the church. Eventually, he attracted a group of people from the central part of the diocese who objected to the changes following Vatican II. There were also those who simply loved the Mass of Pius V. At the time there were three places in the diocese that offered this Mass. Those parishioners who did not like this shift were forced to find another parish.

There were parishes that had one Sunday Tridentine Mass. Why is the bishop taking them away, bit by bit? It certainly isn’t “lack of interest”.

“They screamed bloody murder”, “changing everything”, (already addressed in a previous post) “this group of people”. Deacon, it is the argument of liberals to be vague and to use the terms “they” or “them” not referring to anyone in particular. Please be specific.

First of all, NOBODY was 'forced to find another parish" (except the people who love the Tridentine). The Novus Ordo was ALWAYS offered at St. Mary’s - 5pm Sat, 6pm Sat, 7:30 am Sunday, 9 am Sunday and 10:30 am Sunday-(Sat. 6 pm NO has been recently removed for lack of attendees) ALL Novus Ordo masses. But even if they didn’t like the pastor - considering that the Novus Ordo is available (no kneelers and no kneeling AT ALL DURING THE MASS, directly disobeying the GIRM for the past 10 or more years, with no objection from our bishop, even after 2 ‘remodels’) at St. Simon and Jude, about 2 miles from St. Mary’s, I can’t imagine anyone having any difficulty finding a NO mass within a few miles (literally - 3 or 4 miles at the most) and NOTHING ‘forced’ these people to move, as you stated, other than a holy Novus Ordo mass. Yet, no big deal for those who love the Tridentine Mass to drive 30 miles each way for an 8 am mass, park 4 blocks away and stand for 2 hours.

And then there’s St. Vincent de Paul, about 4 miles from St. Mary’s, that holds about 1000 (no tabernacle there, though, under orders from the bishop and his openly homosexual previous Liturgical Director, Fr. Rod Stevens, who has since left the priesthood)
Deacon Ed:
Bishop Brown, in respecting the priest who was there, allowed this situation to continue until the priest reached retirement age, and then he decided that the conditions for permitting the Mass of Pius V under the Ecclesia Dei
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indult did not exist.
  • I’ve again, recently read through Ecclesia Dei and can’t find ANYTHING that supports your statement. PLEASE quote the section.*
Deacon Ed:
That is, this group of people constantly lashed out at the teachings of Vatican II and at the bishop himself. Therefore, according to the directives of *Ecclesia Dei *
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and in accordance with the mandate of the bishop to regulate the liturgy in his diocese, he choose to replace the Mass of Pius V with the Mass of Paul VI – but in Latin. (/QUOTE)

Again, please quote the section that supports that statement.

Also, you say, “this group of people”. 364 people. Do you know these people who “constantly lash out at the teachings of Vatican II”? Did you do a survey at St. Mary’s? Or was it more probably a handful of hardliners? I’d been to that Tridentine Mass celebrated by Fr. Johnson. And I experienced a most holy, reverent, kind and wonderful group of people who love the holiness of that mass.

The following is from Ecclesia Dei, 1988:

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The following is from Ecclesia Dei, 1988:

To the bishops especially it pertains, by reason of their pastoral mission, to exercise the important duty of a clear-sighted vigilance full of charity and firmness, so that this fidelity may be everywhere safeguarded.(7)

To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations. In this matter I ask support of the Bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the Church.

“By virtue of my Apostolic Authority I Decree … respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition, by a wide and generous application of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See, for the use of the Roman Missal … of 1962.” (Emphasis added.)

Where is Bishop Brown’s “charity” for “safeguarding” this '“fidelity” for the 1300 Catholics, diocese-wide, who signed a petition requesting that the Tridentine Mass remain available at St. Mary’s? Where is his “guaranteed respect for their rightful aspirations”? Or his “wide and generous application of the directives issued…”?
Deacon Ed:
It is true that they have an administrator, and they will soon have a new administrator.
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An administrator has NO authority at a parish - Bishop Brown has even taken away the celebrating priest’s RIGHTFUL AUTHORITY to NOT require a sign of peace by the faithful. He has ordered that the parish distribute under both species (not at ALL “customary”) and will not allow the priest to distribute communion while people kneel in line at the altar rail. And the new administrator who has been assigned has a 6 YEAR assignment. An administrator for the next 6 years for a parish that has thrived for 25 years under one pastor, Fr. Johnson, and has existed as a Catholic parish since 1912 and currently has over 1600 registered families? *An administrator who has *no decision making power for his particular flock. **Why? **

Ans:*** It gives the bishop total power over every decision at the parish. ***

The donations have decreased from $12,000 per week in May of 2004 to $7,000 per week in May of 2005.

The bishop began his demolition of this parish when he took the Tridentine Mass in May of 2004, he continues.
Deacon Ed:
BTW, the Mass of Pius V is still offered at Mission San Juan Capistrano which is 28 miles away from St. Mary’s by the Sea.
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“28 miles away” has been responded to by GloriaPatri - but what has not been mentioned is that the ONLY Tridentine Mass in the Diocese of Orange is at a chapel that holds 120 people. And it was SRO with approx 300 people BEFORE Bishop Tod Brown cancelled the St. Mary’s Tridentine Mass. 350 to 450 people attend the mass at the Mission San Juan Capistrano chapel at** **8 am every Sunday. God bless them.

Deacon Ed, you’d probably call this ’lashing out at the bishop", as you mentioned in your post.

I call it telling the whole truth.

Anxiously awaiting your **detailed **rebuttal.

God help us,

Angel
 
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AlexB:
Incidentally, I visited St. Mary’s by the Sea in April, and they still distributed Holy Communion at the rail.
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That was ended on Mother’s Day, 2005.

What a gift to our Blessed Mother at St. Mary’s by the Sea Parish, named for her.

So sad.

Angel
 
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GloriaPatri4:
In the Diocese of Orange …There is another parish in Garden Grove which offers the TLM but I’m not sure it is valid since they do not have the approval of the bishop. .

No, the TLM is not available in my parish.
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The mass in valid, but illicit.

Angel
 
Angels Watchin:
Do you know these people who “constantly lash out at the teachings of Vatican II”?
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What, you thought “I call it the Kumbaya Church” (a quote from the first article linked to in the opening post) was a compliment?
 
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JNB:
First off, the former Pastor is St. Marys by the Sea when he was assigned there in the late 70s made only one change, he re installed the altar rail, and distributed it there. Untill the early 90s, he was not granted the indult, while he did celebrate the Novus Ordo in Latin, he did so with the former Bishop of Oranges permission . This hardly constitutes a rejection of Vatican II.

It is horrible that Bp. Brown has acted in a manner that is even less pastoral than Cdl. Mahony, because he even lets a handful of parishes in the LA Archdiocese to retain use of the rail and some other traditional liturgucal practices(such as SS Peter & Paul in Willmington and St. Victors in West Hollywood). There were over 1000 singatures submitted sent to Bp. Brown begging for him to allow the Tridentine mass to be retained, he rejected those appeals, and he forced the parish to adapt liturgical practices that are hardly mandated by the Vatican. Whats more, the priests of the local Norbortine Abbey offered to send of their priests to celebrate the Tridentine mass(one of their priests offeres the Latin Novus Ordo there now)

All and all, what Bp. BRown has done is a disgrace, and its little wonder with his leadership, the Orange diocese produces almost no vocations. It is actions like those of Bp. BRown that have caused so many Traditional Catholics to adopt a bunker mentality and go beyond the diocesen structure to attend a mass with reverence.
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It is a tragedy that thes bishops are doing everything in their power to crush the faith.
 
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Catholic2003:
What, you thought “I call it the Kumbaya Church” (a quote from the first article linked to in the opening post) was a compliment?
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I was responding specifically to Deacon Ed’s post, and only glanced quickly at the other posts to see if anyone had responded to his statements.

I don’t know what you mean by your post or what links you’re talking about (it’s late in the day and I just spent 2 1/2 hours researching and typing that response to Deacon Ed- right now I’m brain dead!)

If you would explain, I’d be happy to respond. (but maybe tomorrow!)

Angel
 
Yes! The Tridentine Mass should be offered if there are priests available, simply because our dear JPII asked that there be a wide and generous application of the TLM.
 
Angels Watchin:
If you would explain, I’d be happy to respond. (but maybe tomorrow!)
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No need to explain, I was just kibbitzing. My only point was that, IMHO, this article by Steven Greenhut was disrespectful to the point of insubordination, with the “Kumbaya” quote being a prime example of this disrespect towards the post-Vatican II Church.
 
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Catholic2003:
No need to explain, I was just kibbitzing. My only point was that, IMHO, this article by Steven Greenhut was disrespectful to the point of insubordination, with the “Kumbaya” quote being a prime example of this disrespect towards the post-Vatican II Church.
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Not to make excuses for Mr. Greenhut but I don’t believe he is Catholic. I am pretty sure I read somewhere that he is Greek Orthodox. He probably got the “kumbaya” term from someone he was interviewing for the piece. In regards to insubordination it runs rampant here in the diocese of Orange and it goes all the way up to the top. The parishes in this diocese that bring in the most money pretty much have free rein and there is no reprimanding. One of the other parishes in Huntington Beach that someone mentioned (was it you Angel?) some people have nicknamed it Sts. Jivin and Jude. This parish removed their kneelers, I believe they still have liturgical dancers and a friend of mine who attends mass there said they’ve been teaching “There is no Hell” theory. Nothing is ever done about these parishes because they bring in loads of money for the diocese.
 
Angels Watchin:
That was ended on Mother’s Day, 2005.

What a gift to our Blessed Mother at St. Mary’s by the Sea Parish, named for her.

So sad.

Angel
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It is not just sad, it is a crime, it is a persecution of Catholics who love tradition. With the end of kneeling for communion at St Marys, and now communion under both species being forced, along with EMHCs, Fr. Perez chapel will only gain more parishoners, maybe even past the 1,000 mark, while weekly offerings to St Marys by the Sea probably dropping to $5,000 a week or lower as it loses its uniqueness. Whats the point of attnending even its Latin Novus Ordo if the rest of the liturgy is banal?
I honestly do not know what I would do if I was in Orange county, either go to the Norbortine Abbey in Silverado, make the trek to San Juan Capistrano or go to SS Peter & Paul i n Willmington if I wanted to remain licit, or I would even strongly consider going to Fr. Perez' chapel. Many prayers with the suffereing faithful in the diocese of Orange. Pray that the suffereing will end and the faith to regain its zeal.
 
Ano ther great irony is how most consider Northren California(where I am from) to be more liberal than So Cal. In politics that is certainly true, but in terms of the church, traditional Catholics have been far better treated in Nor Cal than So Cal. There is a parish in Oakland that is very similar to the way St Marys by the sea used to be called St. Margaret Marys, that has the Tridentine mass and the Novus Ordo in Latin, the Bishop in Oakland invited in a priest from the Institute of Christ the King in as chaplin for the TLM community and he will even perform conformations in the traditional Latin rite. In the Santa Rosa diocese, a former independent parish came into full union with the diocese, even in San Jose, a diocese with a very liberal Bishop, another traditional leaning parish, Our Lady of Peace that also uses the altar rails was allowed to retain its coustoms and in fact, after its old diocean pastor retired, a conservative religous order was allowed to take over, giving it a degree of independence(though I do think that the fact it genereates a large amount of revenue as well helped the parish).

Yes it is indeed ironic. It does seem that of all place sin the US, the church is doing its worst in terms of vocations and even influence not in New England, but Southren California.
 
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EJ79:
With all due respect, I don’t find it “scary” at all. The faithful of Los Angeles have had liberal liturgy imposed on them for at least a generation now. Many people don’t know what reverent liturgy is anymore, because they almost never get to encounter it. People cannot respond to something they do not encounter. I’m sure that many people have never even heard of the Tridentine Mass in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. “Gaither Faithfully Together” imposes many things that seem to be at odds with the directives of the Congregation for Divine Worship (esp. more recent ones), with the will of our late Pope, and especially our current one.

I think what’s at issue with the situation in Orange and in other places is how orthodoxy and rightful aspirations to traditional, faithful liturgical celebrations are discouraged; those who aspire to these things are bullied and mistreated, while those who dissent in one way or another are rewarded and defended.

When the cardinal-archbishop of Los Angeles sees fit to celebrate a Mass on the occasion of Gay Pride LA and refuses to comply with “Redemptionis Sacramentum” on several points… it is safe to say that he is depriving his flock of something vital for the faith - orthodoxy, truth, and beauty. Sadly, I think anyone in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles or the Diocese of Orange can safely phone Rome and say “Houston, we have a problem.”
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You’re commenting about something you obviously know very little about…

First, Mahony has been in place since when, 1986? That’s not a “generation.” Only the deeply misinformed would label Manning and McIntyre as being “liberal.”

Second, a huge amount of Catholics in the archdiocese are first generation Americans – they are highly reverent Catholics – more so than most anglos I know.

You should do a bit of study before you pop-off about the Archdiocese of Los Angeles – as if you knew anything about it.
 
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Fogny:
Mr Greenhut is very observant and spot on, and I don’t know if he is a Catholic.

“This is standard fare, however, in the bitter war that is waged behind the scenes within the church. In reality, there are two churches co-existing uncomfortably together. There’s the traditional Catholic Church, with its unwavering support for church traditions and theology.”

I do not want to hear that Liberal Bishops such as Brown,Levada, or others have the right to wage a silent war on traditional catholics,their actions speak loudly.

Fogny
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So are you saying that you are to the right of Attila the Hun? Calling Lavada a liberal shows either an extreme position on your part or a great deal of ignorance about the Archbishop.
 
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tpmjr42:
You aren’t as versed in the TLM in LA as you seem to indicate. To attend the TLM in LA is to take a road trip every Sunday as it is offered in different churches every week in disparate parts of the archidiocese. "Less than 50 miles will get you to the TLM in San Pedro, but only on the 1st Sunday. The Mass at Mission San Fernando is also only offered the 1st Sunday.

Considering it is the largest archdiocese in the US, the TLM schedule could hardly be called “generous”.
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It sure can. Very few people attend it. It moves around on a regular schedule in order to get MORE people to attend it.

In San Fernando they almost had to cancel it because they were not getting enough in collections to pay the organist.
 
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otm:
So are you saying that you are to the right of Attila the Hun? Calling Lavada a liberal shows either an extreme position on your part or a great deal of ignorance about the Archbishop.
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Bingo.
 
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JNB:
Ano ther great irony is how most consider Northren California(where I am from) to be more liberal than So Cal. In politics that is certainly true, but in terms of the church, traditional Catholics have been far better treated in Nor Cal than So Cal. There is a parish in Oakland that is very similar to the way St Marys by the sea used to be called St. Margaret Marys, that has the Tridentine mass and the Novus Ordo in Latin, the Bishop in Oakland invited in a priest from the Institute of Christ the King in as chaplin for the TLM community and he will even perform conformations in the traditional Latin rite. In the Santa Rosa diocese, a former independent parish came into full union with the diocese, even in San Jose, a diocese with a very liberal Bishop, another traditional leaning parish, Our Lady of Peace that also uses the altar rails was allowed to retain its coustoms and in fact, after its old diocean pastor retired, a conservative religous order was allowed to take over, giving it a degree of independence(though I do think that the fact it genereates a large amount of revenue as well helped the parish).

Yes it is indeed ironic. It does seem that of all place sin the US, the church is doing its worst in terms of vocations and even influence not in New England, but Southren California.
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It’s to be applauded when the “traditionalists” reject the GIRM and condemmed only when the “modernists” reject it for what they feel is “best”?

Can you spell hypocracy?

Also, back-up your notion that: “the church is doing its worst in terms of vocations and even influence not in New England, but Southren California.”
 
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