I
Iohannes
Guest
Can you explain to me the group of people who lashed out at the bishop and teachings of Vatican II? Who are they? Do you know their names?
- Status
R
redkim
Guest
Nope. I’m saying the exact opposite. The question was asked as to whether the Bishop should offer the TLM…and I’m saying YES!
M
Mom_of_5
Guest
Since it is acceptable in Rome, the local Bishop has no “right” to say “no”. He may not like it, but it is not his decision. There are those who hold hard and fast to the “old” church. That is their choice and should be honored.
Love and peace
Love and peace
G
GloriaPatri4
Guest
Mom of 5:
As I write this post the Latin Novus Ordo Mass is being celebrated in place of the Tridentine Latin Mass at St. Mary’s. The little church which used to be packed with people overflowing outside the church to attend the TLM has now dwindled down to a half empty shell. What a shame that their choice is not being honored :nope: .
G
GloriaPatri4
Guest
I’m sorry I hadn’t seen your post until now.
I was not aware of a survey, would you please provide info?
The lot is still vacant they haven’t started construction from what I’ve heard.
G
GloriaPatri4
Guest
Sunday, May 16, 2004
The Catholic Church’s great divide
By STEVEN GREENHUT
Even readers without a trace of interest in Roman Catholic liturgical and theological debates might want to follow an ongoing controversy in the Diocese of Orange surrounding the future of the Tridentine Mass. The issues at the center of this debate are issues that shed light on the ongoing sex-abuse scandal, the roots of which still confuse some observers today.
To traditional Roman Catholics, there are few things more pious than this mass, which is an old-style Latin Mass known for its deep meaning and great beauty. This is the real deal, complete with vestments, incense and Gregorian Chant. It’s more pious than the modern mass and the polar opposite of - this really happened in Orange County - a mass given by a dancing priest wearing a black leotard.
Now that a veteran priest at a traditional Huntington Beach parish has retired, the diocese is stamping out the Tridentine Mass at that location, forcing devotees to drive to the overcrowded Mission San Juan Capistrano, where it is still officially sanctioned.
Basically, the forces of liberalism that are crushing traditional Roman Catholic piety are the same forces that unleashed the sex-abuse scandal within the church. As long as the leadership rejects traditional ideals of holiness and piety, nothing will be done to assure that holy men, and not those with lax sexual attitudes, dominate the priesthood.
Locally, Fr. Daniel Johnson, the kindly, traditionalist priest who led St. Mary’s by the Sea for 25 years, has retired. His retirement, and the retirement of the Tridentine Mass with him, is heartbreaking news to St. Mary’s parishioners.
It’s a mean-spirited act for the bishop to deny the parishioners the mass they love so much. The diocese says permission for the mass was granted for the priest only, and it retires with him. But the diocese could, if it wanted to, pass the permission on to someone else.
This is standard fare, however, in the bitter war that is waged behind the scenes within the church. In reality, there are two churches co-existing uncomfortably together. There’s the traditional Catholic Church, with its unwavering support for church traditions and theology.
That’s the world of Fr. Johnson and St. Mary’s by the Sea.
Then there’s the “progressive” church, with its emphasis on “social justice,” and its desire to make church teachings fit with modern sensibilities. I call it the Kumbaya Church.
That’s the world of the diocese leadership.
Since Vatican II, the church council that adopted reforms, the left has been ascendant. Social and theological liberals have used the “spirit” of Vatican II to advance their agenda, and have succeeded, despite the traditional emphasis in far-away Rome.
As Catholic author Michael Rose argued in his blockbuster book, “Goodbye Good Men,” the liberals gained control of many seminaries and kept tradition-minded men out of the priesthood. That’s the root of the sexual-abuse scandal: The success of the left in driving out “good men” and replacing them with priests with different standards.
The proof is in the pudding. The more liberal the diocese, the fewer the men interested in priestly vocations. Only in the most traditional dioceses are there large number of people pursuing the priesthood. At St. Mary’s by the Sea, Fr. Johnson took over a congregation of 400 people 25 years ago, and it is now 1,500 families strong.
Is the growth because the church has the traditional liturgy and doesn’t soft-sell its principles?
“Of course,” Fr. Johnson told me.
Yet, as Fr. Johnson said, “the diocese reaches out to everyone but we are barely tolerated [by the diocese].”
“The old mass, in particular, emphasizes the real presentation at Calvary,” he said. “The pope said we have to get back to the idea of sacrifice rather than a fraternal banquet.”
One never hears diocese officials talk that way. They use the language of political correctness and ecumenism. I recall the photograph I was sent by one local Catholic of Bishop Tod Brown yanking (he says gently pulling) a middle-aged woman up by her arm, as the woman tried to receive communion from him while she was kneeling. The bishop has a firm policy against kneeling before communion.
Last summer, the bishop insisted that two priests credibly accused of downloading child pornography on their computer were not in violation of the diocese’s zero-tolerance policy on sexual abuse. That’s why the person who sent me the photograph penciled in a caption: “Bishop Brown: light-handed on child porn - but heavy-handed on kneeling for communion!!”
That’s a strange disconnect: apparent laxity toward misbehavior, yet intolerance toward attempts at holiness. It’s typical. When Mel Gibson’s
continue reading
lewrockwell.com/ocregist…lic-divide.html
The Catholic Church’s great divide
By STEVEN GREENHUT
Even readers without a trace of interest in Roman Catholic liturgical and theological debates might want to follow an ongoing controversy in the Diocese of Orange surrounding the future of the Tridentine Mass. The issues at the center of this debate are issues that shed light on the ongoing sex-abuse scandal, the roots of which still confuse some observers today.
To traditional Roman Catholics, there are few things more pious than this mass, which is an old-style Latin Mass known for its deep meaning and great beauty. This is the real deal, complete with vestments, incense and Gregorian Chant. It’s more pious than the modern mass and the polar opposite of - this really happened in Orange County - a mass given by a dancing priest wearing a black leotard.
Now that a veteran priest at a traditional Huntington Beach parish has retired, the diocese is stamping out the Tridentine Mass at that location, forcing devotees to drive to the overcrowded Mission San Juan Capistrano, where it is still officially sanctioned.
Basically, the forces of liberalism that are crushing traditional Roman Catholic piety are the same forces that unleashed the sex-abuse scandal within the church. As long as the leadership rejects traditional ideals of holiness and piety, nothing will be done to assure that holy men, and not those with lax sexual attitudes, dominate the priesthood.
Locally, Fr. Daniel Johnson, the kindly, traditionalist priest who led St. Mary’s by the Sea for 25 years, has retired. His retirement, and the retirement of the Tridentine Mass with him, is heartbreaking news to St. Mary’s parishioners.
It’s a mean-spirited act for the bishop to deny the parishioners the mass they love so much. The diocese says permission for the mass was granted for the priest only, and it retires with him. But the diocese could, if it wanted to, pass the permission on to someone else.
This is standard fare, however, in the bitter war that is waged behind the scenes within the church. In reality, there are two churches co-existing uncomfortably together. There’s the traditional Catholic Church, with its unwavering support for church traditions and theology.
That’s the world of Fr. Johnson and St. Mary’s by the Sea.
Then there’s the “progressive” church, with its emphasis on “social justice,” and its desire to make church teachings fit with modern sensibilities. I call it the Kumbaya Church.
That’s the world of the diocese leadership.
Since Vatican II, the church council that adopted reforms, the left has been ascendant. Social and theological liberals have used the “spirit” of Vatican II to advance their agenda, and have succeeded, despite the traditional emphasis in far-away Rome.
As Catholic author Michael Rose argued in his blockbuster book, “Goodbye Good Men,” the liberals gained control of many seminaries and kept tradition-minded men out of the priesthood. That’s the root of the sexual-abuse scandal: The success of the left in driving out “good men” and replacing them with priests with different standards.
The proof is in the pudding. The more liberal the diocese, the fewer the men interested in priestly vocations. Only in the most traditional dioceses are there large number of people pursuing the priesthood. At St. Mary’s by the Sea, Fr. Johnson took over a congregation of 400 people 25 years ago, and it is now 1,500 families strong.
Is the growth because the church has the traditional liturgy and doesn’t soft-sell its principles?
“Of course,” Fr. Johnson told me.
Yet, as Fr. Johnson said, “the diocese reaches out to everyone but we are barely tolerated [by the diocese].”
“The old mass, in particular, emphasizes the real presentation at Calvary,” he said. “The pope said we have to get back to the idea of sacrifice rather than a fraternal banquet.”
One never hears diocese officials talk that way. They use the language of political correctness and ecumenism. I recall the photograph I was sent by one local Catholic of Bishop Tod Brown yanking (he says gently pulling) a middle-aged woman up by her arm, as the woman tried to receive communion from him while she was kneeling. The bishop has a firm policy against kneeling before communion.
Last summer, the bishop insisted that two priests credibly accused of downloading child pornography on their computer were not in violation of the diocese’s zero-tolerance policy on sexual abuse. That’s why the person who sent me the photograph penciled in a caption: “Bishop Brown: light-handed on child porn - but heavy-handed on kneeling for communion!!”
That’s a strange disconnect: apparent laxity toward misbehavior, yet intolerance toward attempts at holiness. It’s typical. When Mel Gibson’s
continue reading
lewrockwell.com/ocregist…lic-divide.html
J
Jadesfire20
Guest
I remember about this time last year there was a survey put out by the bishop asking for imput from the laity on various issues. One of the questions asked was whether or not people were in favor of building a cathedral. The results were published in the diocese newspaper. I remember reading it and getting ticked off because a NOT insignificant number of people suggested the ordination of women
. But on the cathedral question people were not in favor of it.
G
GloriaPatri4
Guest
Oh yes, I remember now. It was the survey that we were to mail back or put in the collection basket? Regretfully I never turned mine back in, not that it would have made much difference though.I remember about this time last year there was a survey put out by the bishop asking for imput from the laity on various issues. One of the questions asked was whether or not people were in favor of building a cathedral. The results were published in the diocese newspaper. I remember reading it and getting ticked off because a NOT insignificant number of people suggested the ordination of women
You don’t happen to still have those results do you?
J
JOHNYJ
Guest
One thing Catholic bishops hate,big time.Is for their name to be known in Rome in a negative way.
Complain,get the former worshippers and complain to Rome.The Ecclesia Dei Commission in Rome has the authority to grant the use of the TLM. Over the objections of the local bishop.They have never done it,but. The complaints and requests will make a diference.Get as many people to complain to as many offices of the Curia as may have authority.You will get answered, whats more important your bishop will have to answer and they hate that.
Complain,get the former worshippers and complain to Rome.The Ecclesia Dei Commission in Rome has the authority to grant the use of the TLM. Over the objections of the local bishop.They have never done it,but. The complaints and requests will make a diference.Get as many people to complain to as many offices of the Curia as may have authority.You will get answered, whats more important your bishop will have to answer and they hate that.
J
Jadesfire20
Guest
Sorry Gloria, I didn’t save the issue. I only remember a few things: The cathedral, The suggestion of womens’ ordination
complaints about immodest clothing in the summer, and concern over the loss of teenagers to fundamentalist protestant churches.
P
proud2bcatholic
Guest
To any of the California Traditionalists move over to your neighboring state and join me and other young Catholics as we begin to build our flourishing traditionalist community. Bishop Olmsted is a true shepherd of his flock. We are blessed to have him as our Bishop, and I see a great future in store for the Diocese of Phoenix. The Poor Clare Nuns of Perpetual Adoration just moved here.
Also the good Bishop is beginning to bring vocations back to Phoenix. We have 7 young men entering seminary this fall. The Bishop said to expect at least double that amount next year, and continued increase in numbers the following years. This is a vast improvement over the recent past. For instance, this past June we had our first newly ordained priest in over 2 years. I know a good majority of the men in seminary currently and all of them are solid, dynamic, orthodox young men that are in line with the Vatican.
So, sell your house in California, move here and get a house twice the size for half the money, and lets get on board, because Jesus is using Bishop Olmsted to take the Church in Phoenix to new heights.
The Archdiocese of Denver and the Diocese of Phoenix are the two bright spots of the west. I have goosebumps of thinking what is in store for us.
Also the good Bishop is beginning to bring vocations back to Phoenix. We have 7 young men entering seminary this fall. The Bishop said to expect at least double that amount next year, and continued increase in numbers the following years. This is a vast improvement over the recent past. For instance, this past June we had our first newly ordained priest in over 2 years. I know a good majority of the men in seminary currently and all of them are solid, dynamic, orthodox young men that are in line with the Vatican.
So, sell your house in California, move here and get a house twice the size for half the money, and lets get on board, because Jesus is using Bishop Olmsted to take the Church in Phoenix to new heights.
The Archdiocese of Denver and the Diocese of Phoenix are the two bright spots of the west. I have goosebumps of thinking what is in store for us.
I
Iohannes
Guest
The new pastor or administrator for St. Mary’s by the Sea wants to force that parish to accept female altar boys.
J
JNB
Guest
I read the weekly collections has gone from 12,000 to less than 7,000 on a post near the beginning of this thread, how much lower does he want to drive down collections? It also seems that at the rate things are going. Fr. Perez independent chapel will have over 1,000 parishoners soon enough.
I hate to say this but one bad mark on Pope John Paul IIs papacy is that he appointed men like Bp. Brown to be Bishops, men who appear to be lax when it comes to correcting priests and laity on dissent of church teachigs, yet all too eager to crack down on anything that appears traditional.
H
harinkj
Guest
In another post, someone mentioned that the Tridentine Latin Mass could be said in a location by the permission of the bishop of that area, or it could be said by priests of the Priestly Fraternitiy of Saint Peter which has permission form Pope John Paul II in 1988, or so. If this is true, could the people of the St. Mary’s By The Sea invite the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter to come to the Huntington Beach area? 
Of course, the parishioners would have to support building a new church. :bowdown:
Of course, the parishioners would have to support building a new church. :bowdown:
- Kathie
I
Iohannes
Guest
the Bishop said NO!! NO!!! and NO!!! to the TLM.In another post, someone mentioned that the Tridentine Latin Mass could be said in a location by the permission of the bishop of that area, or it could be said by priests of the Priestly Fraternitiy of Saint Peter which has permission form Pope John Paul II in 1988, or so. If this is true, could the people of the St. Mary’s By The Sea invite the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter to come to the Huntington Beach area?
Of course, the parishioners would have to support building a new church. :bowdown:
- Kathie
When a Norbertine priest volunteered to say TLM on a Sundays and he said NO!!!
The new priest now wants altar girls trained along with EMHC’s.
J
JOHNYJ
Guest
You can appeal to the Ecclesia Dei commission in Rome. They can over rule your bishop.Its doubtful they will,but.It will make him explain himself.
G
GloriaPatri4
Guest
Does this need to be done through a canon lawyer and how many people need to appeal?
I wonder if the Saint Joseph Foundation would assist with this situation.
The bishop is allowing one TLM mass at the Mission San Juan Capistrano, the problem is its a 30 to 40 mile drive for the people who were are closer to St. Mary’s. Gasoline prices have skyrocketed to $2.85 a gal. for regular so it’s an expensive round trip to the mission.
I
Iohannes
Guest
If indult folks are being treated like this, you guys wonder why the SSPX are gaining in numbers?
G
GloriaPatri4
Guest
JNB said:
What better excuse could one have to close down a parish? It’s all so convenient. Shrinking congregation leads to shrinking funds which leads to “Oh what a shame we’re going to have to close down the parish”. What makes it even nicer is that this almost beach front property will fetch millions for the diocese. Let’s kill two birds with one stone get rid of the tradionalists and make some money to pitch in towards that new cathedral, Yahoo :dancing: Here comes the money!!!
S
SHEMP
Guest
GloriaPatri4 said:
I went to Mass at St. Mary’s by the Sea in April 2004. I was at Huntington Beach for a medical conference and I went to this Church for Sunday Mass. I was so impressed by the service!! I was not at the Latin Mass. I have never been to a Latin Mass. This experience at this Church greatly affected me! This experience at this Church helped me to have a renewed interest in learning about the Liturgy. I have longed to go back to this little church. I am very disappointed to learn that there will be changes.
I wish my “Catholic community” out in Naperville would have a small fraction of the enthusiasm that I saw at this little Church in OC.
- Status