Bishop punishes traditional/orthodox parish

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otm:
Having said that, in the United States, you are never faced with that choice. There is alwasy valid and licit available.
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Perhaps you’re lucky enough for that to be the case, but some American Catholics would have to drive a hundred miles to find a fully licit Mass, although they could find some closer that are mostly licit.
 
Yes, as long as the question assumes that the church has the proper indult, which I think is true in this case from the OP.
 
To answer the question:
Should the Tridentine Mass be offered if there are priests available to celebrate it?
Yes because it was never prohibited :bounce:
 
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JCB:
To answer the question:
Should the Tridentine Mass be offered if there are priests available to celebrate it?
Yes because it was never prohibited :bounce:
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This is not what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. This is why the indult of Ecclesia Dei was established. It would not be needed if your assertion were correct.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed-
Please show me specifically where the Church has officially outlawed the use of the Tridentine Mass … Where is the specific document / text ?

😉
 
Deacon Ed:
This is not what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. This is why the indult of Ecclesia Dei was established. It would not be needed if your assertion were correct.

Deacon Ed
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I also am interested in seeing the document that banned the use of the Tridentine rite.

By the way, if you can’t find it, don’t feel bad, because neither could I.
 
GloriaPatri4 said:
Since the Orange County Register article below was written St. Mary’s by the Sea parish has yet to have a permanent pastor instead the bishop has assigned a priest to act as a temporary/interim administrator. The congregation has been almost cut in half since the Latin Mass devotees are now forced to travel 30 to 50 miles to the only other church in our diocese which offers the Tridentine Mass. The current priest has been ordered by bishop Brown to cut out most of the Mass rituals and church traditions (no more daily confessions, discouraged parishioners from receiving communion at the altar rail, Communion is now offered under both species)

**There have been at least three priests who have offered to celebrate the Latin Mass but were **
turned down.

I am not a parishioner at this parish but I have many friends who are and I think it’s sad what is happening there.

The Catholic Church’s great divide

lewrockwell.com/ocregister/catholic-divide.html

thelaity.com/emailblasts/tridentinemass.htm

losangelesmission.com/ed/articles/2004/0406rk.htm
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What is so sad about it? Just go to a novus ordo mass(it’ll save you 30-50 miles) The novus ordo fills their sunday obligation and can be celebrated as reverent as the TLM maybe even more reverently. If their bishop tells them not to celebrate it, they can’t celebrate it, it’s no big deal.

Daily confessions? You mean like it being offered everyday or people going to confession daily? And what’s wrong with having communion under both species? Jesus himself offered both his body and blood at the last supper.

Podo2005
 
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JCB:
Deacon Ed-
Please show me specifically where the Church has officially outlawed the use of the Tridentine Mass … Where is the specific document / text ?

😉
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Why don’t you show me where the church said you can celebrate the tridentine mass without an indult?

Podo2005
 
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JCB:
Deacon Ed-
Please show me specifically where the Church has officially outlawed the use of the Tridentine Mass … Where is the specific document / text ?

😉
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The church hasn’t outlawed the use of the tridentine mass, it gave an indult (see Ecclesia Dei and Quattuor Abhinc Annos) so that it may be celebrated. However if your bishop says that you can’t celebrate the mass, even if there are priests willing to celebrate it, you can’t celebrate it…

Podo2005
 
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Podo2005:
Why don’t you show me where the church said you can celebrate the tridentine mass without an indult?

Podo2005
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Meant to say without approval from bishop, sorry:o
 
It is about respect and charity, and the Bishop of Oange has shown neither to the parishoers of St. Marys by the Sea. To be blunt Podo, you are too young to understand, and it seems your parish priest has filled your mind up with nonsense. It is sad because people who like the TLM and a Traditional Version oft he Novus Ordo now have been denied that for no good reason.
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Podo2005:
What is so sad about it? Just go to a novus ordo mass(it’ll save you 30-50 miles) The novus ordo fills their sunday obligation and can be celebrated as reverent as the TLM maybe even more reverently. If their bishop tells them not to celebrate it, they can’t celebrate it, it’s no big deal.

Daily confessions? You mean like it being offered everyday or people going to confession daily? And what’s wrong with having communion under both species? Jesus himself offered both his body and blood at the last supper.

Podo2005
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JCB:
Deacon Ed-
Please show me specifically where the Church has officially outlawed the use of the Tridentine Mass … Where is the specific document / text ?

😉
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Um, sure, the document is Missale Romanum, an Apostolic Constitution which is used to establish law. The pope makes it clear that the new missal is to be used and he obviates all previous legislation with this statement: “We decree that these laws and prescriptions be firm and effective now and in the future, notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic constitutions and ordinances issued by our predecessors and other prescriptions, even those deserving particular mention and amendment.” Since the pope is the supreme (in fact, the only) legislator the law means what he intended it to mean. Specific words are not required to obviate previous legislation, only the intention of the legislator.

Deacon Ed
 
In an interview with Raymond Arroyo (EWTN) Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) stated the Tridentine Mass has never been prohibited. This interview is available on the EWTN website via video tape.
These words you quote refer to the decrees and ordinances included in Missale Romanum, and there is not one word in that apostolic constitution prohibiting the use of the Tridentine Mass. What the constitution does is to legalize the use of the Novus Ordo .
 
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JNB:
It is about respect and charity, and the Bishop of Oange has shown neither to the parishoers of St. Marys by the Sea. To be blunt Podo, you are too young to understand, and it seems your parish priest has filled your mind up with nonsense. It is sad because people who like the TLM and a Traditional Version oft he Novus Ordo now have been denied that for no good reason.
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And these people need to get a life, and I ain’t too young to understand. My priest hasn’t filled up my mind with nonsense, it’s traditionalists like you who have minds that make no sense whatsoever. The bishop says they can’t celebrate it and they protest because they want it** their** way!

Podo2005
 
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JCB:
In an interview with Raymond Arroyo (EWTN) Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) stated the Tridentine Mass has never been prohibited. This interview is available on the EWTN website via video tape.
These words you quote refer to the decrees and ordinances included in Missale Romanum, and there is not one word in that apostolic constitution prohibiting the use of the Tridentine Mass. What the constitution does is to legalize the use of the Novus Ordo .
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Pope Benedict is quite correct. It hasn’t been prohibited – but it does require permission to be said. Clearly both Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II believed this to be the case. And since the document I cited makes the mind of Pope Paul VI clear:
After what we have presented concerning the new Roman Missal, we wish in conclusion to insist on one point in particular and to make it have its effect. When he promulgated the editio princeps of the Roman Missal, our predecessor St. Pius V offered it to the people of Christ as the instrument of liturgical unity and the expression of a pure and reverent worship in the Church. Even though, in virtue of the decree of the Second Vatican Council, we have accepted into the new Roman Missal lawful variations and adaptations,[15] our own expectation in no way differs from that of our predecessor. It is that the faithful will receive the new Missal as a help toward witnessing and strengthening their unity with one another; that through the new Missal one and the same prayer in a great diversity of languages will ascend, more fragrant than any incense, to our heavenly Father, through our High Priest, Jesus Christ, in the Holy Spirit.
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any other argument is so much sophism. Laws are interpreted with the mind of the legislator (the pope) and Pope Paul VI makes it clear that he expects the missal he promulgated to be received as the missal of Pius V was received. That is, it is the universal missal for the Latin Rite. No other missal may be used without permission from Rome.

Deacon Ed
 
Podo2005 said:
And these people need to get a life, and I ain’t too young to understand. My priest hasn’t filled up my mind with nonsense, it’s traditionalists like you who have minds that make no sense whatsoever. The bishop says they can’t celebrate it and they protest because they want it** their** way!

Podo2005
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How mature, and charitable your reply was. :tsktsk:

Yes - you are way too young to quite understand.
 
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Fogny:
Mr Greenhut is very observant and spot on, and I don’t know if he is a Catholic.

“This is standard fare, however, in the bitter war that is waged behind the scenes within the church. In reality, there are two churches co-existing uncomfortably together. There’s the traditional Catholic Church, with its unwavering support for church traditions and theology.”

I do not want to hear that Liberal Bishops such as Brown,Levada, or others have the right to wage a silent war on traditional catholics,their actions speak loudly.

Fogny
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Would that be the Bishop Levada who is the new Prefect of the SCDF ?​

 
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otm:
The Eucharist was not generally reserved in Churches for the first 8 or 9 centuries; then it started to be reserved, but the tabernacle was not in the center of the church; that came a while later.

Liturgically, there is a conflict between the Eucharist present prior to the Consecration. Part of the action of the Mass, the Consecration, is to make the Eucharist (Christ) present; that in part is why the priest is supposed to Consecrate enough Hosts for the Mass and Communion, and not excessively more.

In many European churches, the tabernacle is not in the center of the church. Further, where there is Eucharistic Adoration, particularly 24 hour Eucharistic Adoration, it is much easier to accomplish and much more intimate to have it in a chapel; one does not have to light a large church during the night, nor heat it, and in a small chapel, one is closer to the Eucharist physically.
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This however means that the praxis of the Roman Church has been liturgically deficient - to put it bluntly: it has been abusive. For a long time.​

Which leaves no reason to be impressed when the Church puts her foot down in future. ##
 
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