Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members [CWN]

[Dakota_Roberts]

The legal sense here is no different than the psychological sense. All it takes is one grope or even just fear of one grope.

I don’t understand why you cannot understand.

I doubt groping will be a problem, there have been a number of SSA* males who have made it through Scouting all the way to Eagle without ever inappropriately touching or even considered flirting with another scout.

Sorry, sometimes I have difficulty in comprehend illogic assertions that are not even wrong.

*or whatever the word salad of the week is

Exactly. Once childhood innocence is gone, it is gone forever.

Indeed, it is morally reprehensible for people to despoil the innocence of children by teaching them to irrationally fear groping by certain people.

That is really not a good enough argument when children are concerned.

People who abuse children rarely seem like they would be the type to do so.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I doubt groping will be a problem, there have been a number of SSA* males who have made it through Scouting all the way to Eagle without ever inappropriately touching or even considered flirting with another scout.

That’s because they kept their SSA to themselves. Now, BSA is open to open and active homosexuals.

 

[Sonic]

The word homosexuality was not coined to mean what you think it means.

Dakota,

Not everyone who is considered homosexual has SSA. Every source from Kraft-Ebing in the 1800’s to the Handbook of Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders (2008) will tell you that. It is a well known fact that people participate in homosexual sex for reasons other than SSA, and many of those people consider themselves “gay”.

Being a person who has worked in a support group to help men struggling with cross-dressing, I do know what it means and what the issues are from within the SSA, cross-dressing, and “Gay” communities.

Now, how about you tell me what time you have spent working around the gay community, and tell us about how much research you dedicate each day to the matter.

 

[markomalley]

From NBC News:

Boy Scouts and adult volunteers wore their uniforms Sunday as they marched in Utah’s gay pride parade — defying a leader of the youth organization who had said they couldn’t do so under the organization’s guidelines prohibiting advocating political or social positions.

The Utah Pride Festival Parade came a little more than a week after national delegates of the Boy Scouts of America approved allowing gay youth to join, ending controversial membership guidelines that had in recent years dogged one of the nation’s most popular organizations for children and teens.

“It just feels like the right thing to do,” Kenji Mikesell, an 18-year-old Eagle Scout and high school senior still active with his troop, said before leaving for the parade in Salt Lake City.
Now none of us saw that coming, did we? :banghead:

 

[BroomWagon]

Give 'em an inch and they’ll take a mile.

Posted this morning, maybe you knew, post 429 in the other Boy Scouts thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10822333&postcount=429 :

This is very early on and look at this story:

Boy Scouts can’t wear uniforms at gay pride parade, official says

Will we see eventually, a Scout Master not obey the authority?

Of course, they’ll take liberties with this.

 

[BroomWagon]

Per Post # 441: Give 'em an inch and they’ll take a mile.

Boy Scouts defy orders, wear uniforms in Utah gay pride parade

Posted this morning, maybe you knew, post 429, I see the threads just got merged.: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10822333&postcount=429 :

This is very early on and look at this story:

Boy Scouts can’t wear uniforms at gay pride parade, official says

Will we see eventually, a Scout Master not obey the authority?

Of course, didn’t take long at all for this to happen like less than a week or so?? Hard to stick up for the change now.

 

[BroomWagon]

From NBC News:

Boy Scouts and adult volunteers wore their uniforms Sunday as they marched in Utah’s gay pride parade — defying a leader of the youth organization who had said they couldn’t do so under the organization’s guidelines prohibiting advocating political or social positions.

The Utah Pride Festival Parade came a little more than a week after national delegates of the Boy Scouts of America approved allowing gay youth to join, ending controversial membership guidelines that had in recent years dogged one of the nation’s most popular organizations for children and teens.

“It just feels like the right thing to do,” Kenji Mikesell, an 18-year-old Eagle Scout and high school senior still active with his troop, said before leaving for the parade in Salt Lake City.
Now none of us saw that coming, did we? :banghead:

The only thing admin can do is kick 'em out. I’m not really familiar with how this would work but it is a betrayal of trust and confidence alright.

 

[Cat_Herder]

The only thing admin can do is kick 'em out. I’m not really familiar with how this would work but it is a betrayal of trust and confidence alright.

And then, of course, the admin responsible will get sued along with everyone associated with his council and district. They’ll probably sue the chartering organization (the church) as well.

Run, do not walk, from the BSA. There are very good alternatives that were being denied sunlight by the presence of the BSA. There’s a list on my profile.

 

[markomalley]

The only thing admin can do is kick 'em out. I’m not really familiar with how this would work but it is a betrayal of trust and confidence alright.

I’ve said it before…this has nothing to do with young boys with same sex attraction being able to be boy scouts. This has everything to do with political pressure.

• If the BSA decides to attempt to discipline these people, the entire weight of the news media and the government (the civil rights division of Eric Holder’s DOJ) will come down on their heads. They were protected from government interference by a SCOTUS decision about 10 years ago. But since they decided to allow homosexual scouts, they just vacated that decision.
• I would wager that there will be a “bullying” incident happen someplace in the next few months. (Whether it actually happens or not is a different issue altogether…it will be accused). Following that, the BSA will have to implement a full-scale anti-bullying campaign to include “sensitivity training” about homosexuality (on how it is perfectly normal…and good…and healthy)
• And then within a few more months, there will be calls for homosexual boy scout leaders, as those eeeeevvvvvvviiiiiilllll “breeder” leaders cannot understand gay youth. Again, there will likely be another “incident” or two to put the exclamation point on the demand (and, again, whether something actually happened or not is besides the point)

The Boy Scouts, as we have known them, committed suicide about a week ago…what you are seeing is just the corpse flopping around a bit.

 

[gilliam]

Update of letter from the head of the National Catholic Committee on Scouting

May 29, 2013
My fellow Catholic Scouters,

I am writing this not only as the NCCS National Chairman, but also as an Eagle Scout with nearly 30 years of adult service in Catholic Scouting. I have had four children involved with Scouting and currently have another in Cub Scouting. I must admit that I have concerns about where the change in the Boy Scouts of America youth membership standard may lead. I have been in discussion with Bishop Robert Guglielmone, our liaison from the USCCB, and Fr. Michael Hanifin, our National Chaplain. I have been reading e-mail, blogs, postings to our Facebook page, and had discussions with members of BSA staff and leaders of other faith-based chartered partners. After all this, some prayer and discernment, I have come to the following conclusions:•

• Scouting is still the best youth-serving program available to all youth
• •We should be encouraged that the change in BSA’s youth membership standard is not in conflict with Catholic teaching
• •We need to use this opportunity to show our commitment to making Catholic Scouting a safe environment for all youth in which the Catholic faith is taught, practiced and nurtured.

**What role has the National Catholic Committee on Scouting (NCCS) played?
**

The NCCS exercises its advisory capacity as a member of the BSA Religious Relationships Task Force. The NCCS is not a voting member of the BSA. During the listening period, we expressed our concerns and provided references on Catholic teaching to BSA. The resolution appeared to respect those teachings and BSA’s responses to our concerns were satisfactory. We felt that the Catholic Scouters selected as voters could, in good conscience, vote either for or against the Resolution.

The following are the pertinent responses, made as public statements, from the BSA to our and others’ concerns:

• Any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting

•The Boy Scouts of America does not have an agenda on the matter of sexual orientation, and resolving this complex issue is not the role of the organization, nor may any member use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda

• The Scout Oath begins with duty to God, and the Scout Law ends with a Scout’s obligation to be reverent. Those will always remain core values of the Boy Scouts of America. The values set forth in the Scout Oath and Law are fundamental to the BSA and central to teaching young people to make better choices over their lifetimes.

The NCCS has as its purpose to utilize and ensure the constructive use of the program of the BSA as a viable form of youth ministry with the Catholic youth of our nation. To do this, we cooperate with the bishops of the United States, relating to the USCCB through a Bishop Liaison. Each diocesan bishop must decide whether the membership standard is acceptable. Bishop Guglielmone has written to every bishop in the United States concerning the issue and has made himself available to assist them in doing what is best for our young people.

to be continued…

 

[gilliam]

**What was actually approved by BSA? **

Following is the resolution that was approved by more than 60% of the voters as the new BSA membership standard for youth:
*
Youth membership in the Boy Scouts of America is open to all youth who meet the specific membership requirements to join the Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, Sea Scout and Venturing programs. Membership in any program of the Boy Scouts of America requires the youth member to (a) subscribe to and abide by the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Law, (b) subscribe to and abide by the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principles (duty to God), and (c) demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Law. No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.
*

We understand this to mean the following:
•A youth will not be prevented from receiving a rank award or religious emblem simply for having a same sex attraction.

• A youth will not need to hide the fact that he has or experiences this attraction, but a youth also will not be encouraged or pressured to disclose publicly the experience of such attraction.
• A youth thinking or knowing he has a homosexual inclination should not be afraid that he will be bullied or expelled by the Scouting community by disclosing his sexual orientation.

BSA is expected to provide more details on the application of this resolution over the coming months leading to the resolution’s implementation on January 1, 2014.

**What is the relevant Catholic Church’s teaching? **

The *Catechism of the Catholic Church *(CCC) teaches that individuals who disclose a homosexual inclination or a same sex attraction are to be treated with the same dignity due all human beings created by God (CCC 2358). This teaching is followed in enrollment policies for Catholic schools, for Catholic sports programs, and for all programs of Catholic youth ministry. Scouting, as Catholic youth ministry, allows us to provide a safe environment in which the Catholic faith can be taught, practiced and nurtured. Scouting, as a program for all youth, gives us, as Catholics, the opportunity to meet youth in an activity they enjoy and evangelize them in our faith.

As Catholics, we believe that engaging in sexual activity outside of a marriage is immoral (CCC 2396).

**What do we, as Catholic Scouters, do now? **
I encourage you to seek understanding of the resolution, the Church’s teaching on the subject, and to pray for wisdom. Change is hard, especially when we don’t understand why it’s occurring, what it means, and when we aren’t part of the process. NCCS will do its best to respond to your questions and concerns. We will pray for wisdom ourselves. We ask that Catholic Scouters and chartered organization heads not rush to judgment as the policy does not go into effect until January 1, 2014.

to be continued…

 

[gilliam]

Over the next couple of months, the NCCS will use a task force to develop and execute a plan for insuring a consistent message is delivered to dioceses, parishes, Catholic Scouters and the media and to prepare guidelines to assist diocesan committees in understanding the issues associated with the change in the BSA youth membership standard. One of the action items will be to establish an online Q&A to respond to and collect the questions and concerns that you need answered. In this way, you can help us.

At this moment in history and as part of this Year of Faith, we have an opportunity for prayerful “reflection and rediscovery of the faith”. My hope is that we deal with the challenge in the spirit of Christian charity toward all and the knowledge that the Holy Spirit will guide us with clarity. If you are like me, you joined Scouting to make a difference in the lives of others. Our youth don’t want to leave Scouting. Scouting is still the best program around. Catholic Scouters like you are still very much needed. Let’s continue this important journey together!

Thank you for all you do to promote Scouting as Catholic youth ministry!

Yours in Catholic Scouting,
Edward P. Martin
National Chairman (2013-2016)

References

1 Catechism of the Catholic Church (usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-webelieve/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm), paragraphs 2357-2359, 2396.

2 See Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination, issued by USCCB, November 14, 2006 ( old.usccb.org/doctrine/Ministry.pdf)

3 I have found the blog posting of Edward Peters on this issue (May 26, 2013) particularly enlightening (canonlawblog.wordpress.com/ )

full letter here:

nccs-bsa.org/comment/Response-EPM-130529-v2.pdf

 

[BroomWagon]

I’ve said it before…this has nothing to do with young boys with same sex attraction being able to be boy scouts. This has everything to do with political pressure.

• If the BSA decides to attempt to discipline these people, the entire weight of the news media and the government (the civil rights division of Eric Holder’s DOJ) will come down on their heads. They were protected from government interference by a SCOTUS decision about 10 years ago. But since they decided to allow homosexual scouts, they just vacated that decision.
• I would wager that there will be a “bullying” incident happen someplace in the next few months. (Whether it actually happens or not is a different issue altogether…it will be accused). Following that, the BSA will have to implement a full-scale anti-bullying campaign to include “sensitivity training” about homosexuality (on how it is perfectly normal…and good…and healthy)
• And then within a few more months, there will be calls for homosexual boy scout leaders, as those eeeeevvvvvvviiiiiilllll “breeder” leaders cannot understand gay youth. Again, there will likely be another “incident” or two to put the exclamation point on the demand (and, again, whether something actually happened or not is besides the point)

The Boy Scouts, as we have known them, committed suicide about a week ago…what you are seeing is just the corpse flopping around a bit.

It will be the domino theory or a house of cards, one of those. We will see. It will be a pariah I think and these new organizations will lead the way. Marching in the parade can not be tolerated. So much for the division/distinction of being an open homosexual and behavior.

 

[Cat_Herder]

*]Scouting is still the best youth-serving program available to all youth

First of all, this issue is not about Scouting as a whole, it is about the Boy Scouts of America specifically. The Boy Scouts of America is not available to all youth; it excludes girls (women are allowed in Venturing) and atheists. It also passively excludes anyone who can’t afford the ridiculously marked-up uniform–so it’s not available to the boys who come from families in poverty unless they make a big upfront investment in a uniform drive.

Second of all, the BSA is not the best youth-serving program or even the best Scouting program. The best Scouting programs–the ones with growth in membership and no moral qualms–are American Heritage Girls and the Federation of North-American Explorers, the latter of which is specifically Catholic and belongs to an international Scouting organization approved by the Holy See. How can Mr. Martin claim that a nonsectarian program like the BSA is a better youth-serving program for Catholics than one approved by the Pope?… Although I respect Mr. Martin, he has obviously not studied this issue completely, or he is coming at it from a biased pro-BSA perspective. Since the letter is not objective, his letter should be disregarded at this point.

Bottom line: If NCCS is going to present an objective and honest assessment on the state of Scouting to the USCCB, it needs to be… you know… objective and honest.

 

[edwest2]

Marching in a gay pride parade in uniform? What took so long?

Use the Catholic alternatives folks.

Peace,
Ed

 

[ManOnFire]

My wife and I keep asking ourselves: Why does 3% of the population develop SSA? How come we still don’t know the answer(s) after all this time? Did academics stop looking when the Amer. Psych. Assoc. removed it from the DSM manual in 1973? If we knew the answer(s), then a judgment could be made as to moral nature of the cause(s), then proceed from there. Research has shown that kids who are molested by same-sex elders are far more likely to be homosexual. What if a certain percentage of homosexuality is a form of xenophobia? Bisexuality is far more trendy due to it’s inclusive nature. Why didn’t bisexuality become more popular than homosexuality since it is more inclusive and doubles the number of potential intimate friends if one is non-traditional in the sexual sense? Could this be changed by child psychologists? If so, then “should” it? Who decides? The elites? Gasp. The Human Genome Project found no gene for sexuality in the human genome. This raises important questions because it’s possible that sexuality could be developmental for a large percent of the population due to “modeling,” i.e. what we see in family, media, and society. This is important because progressives see an opportunity to slow/reverse world population growth if the more sterile sexuality can be taught. They don’t believe in God, so they don’t see a problem with leading society in that direction, especially if it can be learned. Why not embrace maximum hedonism for the self if one doesn’t believe in an afterlife? Less kids = more money for pleasure for the self. The athiest progressives see themselves as saviors of the planet and preventers of religious wars if they can also kill religion as well. “If only homosexual atheism could be promoted in society, then the planet could be saved from overpopulation and we could stop these silly religious wars.” “Things that make you go ‘Hmmm…’”

 

[Sonic]

First of all, this issue is not about Scouting as a whole, it is about the Boy Scouts of America specifically. The Boy Scouts of America is not available to all youth; it excludes girls (women are allowed in Venturing) and atheists. It also passively excludes anyone who can’t afford the ridiculously marked-up uniform–so it’s not available to the boys who come from families in poverty unless they make a big upfront investment in a uniform drive.

Second of all, the BSA is not the best youth-serving program or even the best Scouting program. The best Scouting programs–the ones with growth in membership and no moral qualms–are American Heritage Girls and the Federation of North-American Explorers, the latter of which is specifically Catholic and belongs to an international Scouting organization approved by the Holy See. How can Mr. Martin claim that a nonsectarian program like the BSA is a better youth-serving program for Catholics than one approved by the Pope?… Although I respect Mr. Martin, he has obviously not studied this issue completely, or he is coming at it from a biased pro-BSA perspective. Since the letter is not objective, his letter should be disregarded at this point.

Bottom line: If NCCS is going to present an objective and honest assessment on the state of Scouting to the USCCB, it needs to be… you know… objective and honest.

There is one consolation. No where in any of the NCCS statements does it say parents are under any moral obligation to keep their children in the program. Nor do the statements forbid parents from seeking better alternatives.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

That’s because they kept their SSA to themselves. Now, BSA is open to open and active homosexuals.

BSA policy even means married couples aren’t supposed to kiss. At no point did the BSA say gay sex was in accordance with Scouting values, merely that they can’t be denied on the grounds of sexual orientation alone.

Dakota,

Not everyone who is considered homosexual has SSA. Every source from Kraft-Ebing in the 1800’s to the Handbook of Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders (2008) will tell you that. It is a well known fact that people participate in homosexual sex for reasons other than SSA, and many of those people consider themselves “gay”.

Being a person who has worked in a support group to help men struggling with cross-dressing, I do know what it means and what the issues are from within the SSA, cross-dressing, and “Gay” communities.

Now, how about you tell me what time you have spent working around the gay community, and tell us about how much research you dedicate each day to the matter.

anima muliebris in corpore virili inclusa

Why the hell would a male engage in sex with another male unless there was no other sexual outlets such as in prison, money or they were sexually attracted to males? I quite honestly hate it when people just claim themselves as gay without them actually being attracted to the same sex because it creates an inability to properly discuss things.

From NBC News:

Boy Scouts and adult volunteers wore their uniforms Sunday as they marched in Utah’s gay pride parade — defying a leader of the youth organization who had said they couldn’t do so under the organization’s guidelines prohibiting advocating political or social positions.

The Utah Pride Festival Parade came a little more than a week after national delegates of the Boy Scouts of America approved allowing gay youth to join, ending controversial membership guidelines that had in recent years dogged one of the nation’s most popular organizations for children and teens.

“It just feels like the right thing to do,” Kenji Mikesell, an 18-year-old Eagle Scout and high school senior still active with his troop, said before leaving for the parade in Salt Lake City.
Now none of us saw that coming, did we? :banghead:

By all means revoke the troop.

I’ve said it before…this has nothing to do with young boys with same sex attraction being able to be boy scouts. This has everything to do with political pressure.

• If the BSA decides to attempt to discipline these people, the entire weight of the news media and the government (the civil rights division of Eric Holder’s DOJ) will come down on their heads. They were protected from government interference by a SCOTUS decision about 10 years ago. But since they decided to allow homosexual scouts, they just vacated that decision.
• I would wager that there will be a “bullying” incident happen someplace in the next few months. (Whether it actually happens or not is a different issue altogether…it will be accused). Following that, the BSA will have to implement a full-scale anti-bullying campaign to include “sensitivity training” about homosexuality (on how it is perfectly normal…and good…and healthy)
• And then within a few more months, there will be calls for homosexual boy scout leaders, as those eeeeevvvvvvviiiiiilllll “breeder” leaders cannot understand gay youth. Again, there will likely be another “incident” or two to put the exclamation point on the demand (and, again, whether something actually happened or not is besides the point)

The Boy Scouts, as we have known them, committed suicide about a week ago…what you are seeing is just the corpse flopping around a bit.

Dale is still quite relevant and the SCOTUS knows it.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

First of all, this issue is not about Scouting as a whole, it is about the Boy Scouts of America specifically. The Boy Scouts of America is not available to all youth; it excludes girls (women are allowed in Venturing) and atheists. It also passively excludes anyone who can’t afford the ridiculously marked-up uniform–so it’s not available to the boys who come from families in poverty unless they make a big upfront investment in a uniform drive.

Second of all, the BSA is not the best youth-serving program or even the best Scouting program. The best Scouting programs–the ones with growth in membership and no moral qualms–are American Heritage Girls and the Federation of North-American Explorers, the latter of which is specifically Catholic and belongs to an international Scouting organization approved by the Holy See. How can Mr. Martin claim that a nonsectarian program like the BSA is a better youth-serving program for Catholics than one approved by the Pope?… Although I respect Mr. Martin, he has obviously not studied this issue completely, or he is coming at it from a biased pro-BSA perspective. Since the letter is not objective, his letter should be disregarded at this point.

Bottom line: If NCCS is going to present an objective and honest assessment on the state of Scouting to the USCCB, it needs to be… you know… objective and honest.

Last time I checked 14 year old human females are girls. The Scouting groups I grew up with never turned a boy away for lack of money (some of these families were so poor they were homeless), we always made sure they could have at least a shirt and neckerchief, additionally I grew up in a very poor area.

So what you are saying is that they are incompetent?

Research has shown that kids who are molested by same-sex elders are far more likely to be homosexual.

Far more male children were abused than there are gays, far more female children were abused than there are lesbians.
Additionally LGBT people as children have a tendency to display gender atypical behaviour which puts them at the fringes making them more vulnerable (among males at least) to predators after all the wolves go for the more isolated ones.

Bisexuality is far more trendy due to it’s inclusive nature. Why didn’t bisexuality become more popular than homosexuality since it is more inclusive and doubles the number of potential intimate friends if one is non-traditional in the sexual sense?

Bisexuality is far more popular amongst females, males seem to be much more visually hardwired.

The Human Genome Project found no gene for sexuality in the human genome.

We don’t actually know what massive swaths of DNA actually does, the HGP merely sequenced it.

 

[pnewton]

But Catholics are promoting a separation?

I think the key is that at this point the Catholic bishops in America are not promoting separation. I would not be surprised if some diocese decides to break ties, but that has not happened that I know of. A parish my decide to discontinue association with the BSA using another organization or just discontinuing scouting. There is no right or wrong on this issue.

I think for now the bigger issue is what parents should do. I have found that in all such decisions, there simply is no point in those outside a family trying to advise a parent of what is best for their child, especially over the internet. Parenting requires first and foremost and intimate knowledge of the individual child.