Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members [CWN]

[fix]

You are reading much more into the policy change than I am. There is nothing that stipulates that homosexuality and heterosexuality are to be viewed as equal.

no not explicitly but in essence that is what we have. The change did not happen by accident.

People keep bringing up the tenting and showering issues. These are practical obstacles that need to be considered and addressed. But I don’t see them as insurmountable. They’re the same issues that already existed for those troops who already had non-practicing gay boys and looked the other way. They’re also the same issues that our Catholic schools go through with P.E. class and school sponsored overnight events (like retreats or sport outings).

If they looked the other way before there was no need for the change. These issues are minimized because to deal with them brings up the disparities with the logic employed.

Sure, there was political pressure to make the change. I think the old policy could be interpreted as welcoming in the proper ways just as the new policy can be interpreted as restricting in the proper ways. But why hand victory to those who pushed for an even greater change by interpreting it to their favor?

I think by looking the other way and trying out best to spin it looks like a type of moral twister game with a patina of moral theology from one paragraph in the CCC which supported the other policy too.

 

[gilliam]

I think it would depend on the context. Undoubtedly, few bishops would now assign any kind of minister to parish work who admitted to temptations to pedophilia.

The Church has a different standard for adult ministers vs. children

 

[Joe_5859]

no not explicitly …

I would stop right there. This is a policy. All we have is what is explicitly there. If we had to read the current cultural trends in order to interpret policies, we’d be hopelessly lost.

…but in essence that is what we have. The change did not happen by accident.

If they looked the other way before there was no need for the change. These issues are minimized because to deal with them brings up the disparities with the logic employed.

I think by looking the other way and trying out best to spin it looks like a type of moral twister game with a patina of moral theology from one paragraph in the CCC which supported the other policy too.

I am not advising looking the other way or playing a game of moral twister. I am advising looking at the facts and taking things one step at a time. In the coming months, BSA will undoubtedly flesh out what this very simple, concise policy statement means in terms of implementation. I think it is better to wait and see what they say in that regard before jumping ship. The NCCS and the bishops agree with that strategy, so I feel I’m in good company.

 

[pnewton]

I am committed to the real. I am commmitted to avoiding harm here. Now.

I am unaware of ongoing prophecy within Catholocism.

This is the error at the beginning that St. Augustine spoke of. Catholic moral teaching on homosexuality is the same as it always has been. A person has no more right to act on homosexual tendencies than he does on pedophile tendencies. The orientation, or temptation, to this sin is no more evil than any other temptation one tries to avoid. Now if a boy scout donned his uniform and went out and marched for the rights of pedophiles, would you march by their side as well?

 

[Ridgerunner]

The Church has a different standard for adult ministers vs. children

Oh?

What is the Church’s position on having someone declare to a child that he is a homosexual? And what is the Church’s position on having a mentoring organization decree that such disclosures are morally harmless to children?

Right now, a bishop seems to be saying “we’ll have to wait and see just what the scouts mean by this policy”. That’s it. As near as I can tell, nobody in any position of authority in the Church has given it the seal of moral approval.

 

[Ridgerunner]

In the coming months, BSA will undoubtedly flesh out what this very simple, concise policy statement means in terms of implementation.

Maybe, maybe not. They might leave it up to the various sub-organizations just how, exactly, this will be implemented. The only real certainty is that the policy of the scouts is that nobody will be disqualified for being a scount just because he is overt about being homosexual.

 

[gilliam]

The only real certainty is that the policy of the scouts is that nobody will be disqualified for being a scount just because he is overt about being homosexual.

The BSA has never said this. In fact they have stated that if a Scout’s behavior becomes a distraction to the implementation of Scouting in the unit, the unit may remove the Scout.

 

[Cat_Herder]

The BSA has never said this. In fact they have stated that if a Scout’s behavior becomes a distraction to the implementation of Scouting in the unit, the unit may remove the Scout.

No. From the letter sent to councils:

1. If a chartered organization does not agree with allowing gay members, can it deny them membership or defer them to another unit?
   No. Effective Jan. 1, 2014, no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone. However, any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting. As they always have, chartered organizations can require members to demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The BSA has never said this. In fact they have stated that if a Scout’s behavior becomes a distraction to the implementation of Scouting in the unit, the unit may remove the Scout.

So, if one scout tells another that he’s homosexual, he’ll be removed from the unit? No chance, otherwise there would be no reason to change the policy.

 

[gilliam]

So, if one scout tells another that he’s homosexual, he’ll be removed from the unit? No chance, otherwise there would be no reason to change the policy.

If that is your definition of “overt” then no. I was thinking you were saying that he was proclaiming his gayness to the troop or engaging in advocacy. Again, behavior that turns into a distraction or advocacy is grounds for dismissal. That is true today too by the way.

 

[gilliam]

I am not advising looking the other way or playing a game of moral twister. I am advising looking at the facts and taking things one step at a time. In the coming months, BSA will undoubtedly flesh out what this very simple, concise policy statement means in terms of implementation. I think it is better to wait and see what they say in that regard before jumping ship. The NCCS and the bishops agree with that strategy, so I feel I’m in good company.

 

[april32010]

Oh?

#1     What is the Church's position on having someone declare to a child that he is a homosexual?         #2   And what is the Church's position on having a mentoring organization decree that such disclosures are morally harmless to children?

usccb.org/about/doctrine/publications/upload/ministry-to-persons-of-homosexual-iInclination.pdf

#1

 For some persons, revealing their homosexual tendencies to certain close friends, family members, a spiritual director, confessor, or members of a Church support group may provide some spiritual and emotional help and aid them in their growth in the Christian life. In the context of parish life, however, general public self- disclosures are not helpful and should not be encouraged.#1     14. The “sexual orientation” of a person is not comparable to race, sex, age, etc. also for another reason than that given above which warrants attention. An individual's sexual orientation is generally not known to others unless he publicly identifies himself as having this orientation or unless some overt behavior manifests it. As a rule, the majority of homosexually oriented persons who seek to lead chaste lives do not publicize their sexual orientation. Hence the problem of discrimination in terms of employment, housing, etc., does not usually arise.

Homosexual persons who assert their homosexuality tend to be precisely those who judge homosexual behavior or lifestyle to be “either completely harmless, if not an entirely good thing” (cf. no. 3), and hence worthy of public approval. It is from this quarter that one is more likely to find those who seek to “manipulate the Church by gaining the often well-intentioned support of her pastors with a view to changing civil statutes and laws” (cf. no. 5), those who use the tactic of protesting that “any and all criticism of or reservations about homosexual people… are simply diverse forms of unjust discrimination”

#2 All lay people, for their part, by virtue of their rights and duties in the work of the apostolate, should endeavor to act in the same way.Finally, it is necessary to remind everyone of the words of the Second Vatican Council: "This Holy Synod likewise affirms that children and young people have a right to be encouraged to weigh moral values with an upright conscience, and to embrace them by personal choice, to know and love God more adequately.

Hence, it earnestly entreats all who exercise government over people or preside over the work of education to see that youth is never deprived of this sacred right."

 

[Cat_Herder]

usccb.org/about/doctrine/publications/upload/ministry-to-persons-of-homosexual-iInclination.pdf

#1 For some persons, revealing their homosexual tendencies to certain close friends, family members, a spiritual director, confessor, or members of a Church support group may provide some spiritual and emotional help and aid them in their growth in the Christian life. In the context of parish life, however, general public self- disclosures are not helpful and should not be encouraged.

GREAT find, April.

As I’ve explained, the new policy not only permits but REQUIRES open disclosure of homosexuality. This is because the BSA’s youth protection guidelines will require the adult leaders to know who is gay, and each gay Scout will need their own shower time and separate tent. This is a big time violation of the USCCB statement.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I would stop right there. This is a policy. All we have is what is explicitly there. … The NCCS and the bishops agree with that strategy, so I feel I’m in good company.

Not true, because NCCS is biased and the Bishops haven’t seen all the facts yet.
“But they’re not requiring us to admit openly homosexual boys!” , read this letter that BSA sent to councils ahead of the vote and deleted from their own site before the vote.Oh yes they are
“But the National Catholic Committee on Scouting did a ‘neutral’ report that says to stay!” Guess what, the BSA owns them (proof!)… not exactly neutral.
“But we won’t have to affirm anything false!” Yes you will.
“But Expert X and Bishop Y said to stay!” 3-Part Response to CA’s Todd Aglialoro and Dr. Edward Peters — neither of whom considered the CDF document’s prohibition on homosexual youth in teaching (leadership) positions (para. 11)
“But the new policy applies only to membership… we can restrict youth participation!” No you can’t, read page 33 of the BSA voting member packet

 

[gilliam]

From the letter going out to COs from the BSA National Council:

Members must demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. **Scouting’s chartered organizations have the right to uphold their own moral standards within the units they sponsor. **

 

[Cat_Herder]

From the letter going out to COs from the BSA National Council:

Members must demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. **Scouting’s chartered organizations have the right to uphold their own moral standards within the units they sponsor. **

Don’t cut out paragraph 2. It exists, as much as you and I wish it did not. So does page 33 of the VMP.

 

[gilliam]

Don’t cut out paragraph 2. It exists, as much as you and I wish it did not. So does page 33 of the VMP.

I don’t know what your talking about. Here is the entire section of the letter (and I don’t know what a VMP is that you are referring to. Pls spell it out)

***What is staying the same? ***
 The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.
 Scouting’s vision is to serve every eligible youth in America, and this policy would allow it to serve more kids and focus on their development.
 The Scout Oath begins with duty to God, and the Scout Law ends with a Scout’s obligation to be reverent, and that will always remain a core value of the Boy Scouts of America.
 Any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.
 The BSA handbook defines morally straight as, “Scouts should be clean in speech and actions and faithful in religious beliefs,” and a clean Scout as “someone who keeps his body and mind fit, chooses friends who also live by high standards, and helps keep his home and community clean.”
 Members must demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Scouting’s chartered organizations have the right to uphold their own moral standards within the units they sponsor.
 The BSA has stringent polices that protect the safety and privacy of youth and adult members and has always worked to ensure that it is a supportive and safe environment for young people (www.bsayouthprotection.org).
 The organization will maintain its current membership policy for all adult leaders and within the framework of this policy chartering organizations have the right and responsibility to choose their own unit leaders. The Boy Scouts of America fully supports our chartered organizations.

***What is changing? ***
 Youth are still developing, learning about themselves and who they are, developing their sense of right and wrong, and understanding their duty to God to live a moral life. Accordingly, a youth member simply stating he or she is attracted to the same sex, but not engaging in sexual activity, does not make them ineligible for membership.

 

[gilliam]

OK I did a search of the thread and you seem to see something I don’t see in the voter report and that is the Pg 33 of the VMP you keep referring to. But it doesn’t matter we are talking in circles. You want people to quit the BSA for whatever reasons and I am on the side of the Bishops on this one. We will see what happens. The BSA will come out with some guidance which will be OK for most folks now and we all will see how things play out in the long run. Have a great night. I’m hitting the hay.

 

[april32010]

OK I did a search of the thread and you seem to see something I don’t see in the voter report and that is the Pg 33 of the VMP you keep referring to. But it doesn’t matter we are talking in circles. You want people to quit the BSA for whatever reasons and I am on the side of the Bishops on this one. We will see what happens. The BSA will come out with some guidance which will be OK for most folks now and we all will see how things play out in the long run. Have a great night. I’m hitting the hay.

you are on the side of one bishop on this .it remains to be seen what the other 271 Bishops have to say

 

[Brendan]

OK I did a search of the thread and you seem to see something I don’t see in the voter report and that is the Pg 33 of the VMP you keep referring to. But it doesn’t matter we are talking in circles. You want people to quit the BSA for whatever reasons and I am on the side of the Bishops on this one. We will see what happens. The BSA will come out with some guidance which will be OK for most folks now and we all will see how things play out in the long run. Have a great night. I’m hitting the hay.

Sort of, unless they say that we CAN start our own programs. They you accuse them of ‘punting’

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