Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members [CWN]

[Ruthie_again]

CatHerder,

PROVE IT. Show me one document that specifically bans persons with SSA from receiving services from any Church-sponsored group or ministry.

I’m waiting.

 

[pnewton]

And I don’t share your thought that the troops will teach the Church’s truths.

I know of one that will. I do not think I am the only Catholic in Catholic scouting left that is willing to speak up.

So you admit, the truths of the CDF’s arguments apply to the BSA, correct? It is not a strawman.

Only in the same sense that it applies to a rock. I still believe it to be a strawman because no one, not one poster has denied the truth of the document posted. That is the definition of a strawman.

 

[pnewton]

I understand the reaction to the change in the BSA policy. I totally understand anyone that wants to change to another organization, but then I always thought such decisions should be rejected. What I do not understand is why such people feel the need to convert others to their opinion by tactics I can only think of as bullying; saying that the Church teaches that we should abandon the BSA, that those that disagree with them are disagreeing with the pope and other such nonsense. Take a hard line. Fine. But don’t club others over the head with your hard line. As it stands, it looks as if the Catholic Church will follow a more moderate path. If you can not respect that decision, and the decision of others to do the same, then don’t be surprised if things turn nasty and people get tired of it.

 

[Ruthie_again]

I deleted this the first time, because I thought I was on the wrong thread, but I was wrong. Here it is again.

CatHerder (and those who agree with him/her),

PROVE IT. Show me one document that specifically bans persons with SSA from receiving services from any Church-sponsored group or ministry.

I’m waiting.

 

[shocktrooper]

I know of one that will. I do not think I am the only Catholic in Catholic scouting left that is willing to speak up.

There are always exceptions but you know good and well that the leadership has taken a back seat to speaking the moral truths. Laypeople are no different. If my experience aligned with what you do as a teacher of the faith, then I would have less reservation about this.

Only in the same sense that it applies to a rock. I still believe it to be a strawman because no one, not one poster has denied the truth of the document posted. That is the definition of a strawman.

I never meant to imply that you are denying the truths of morality, but you are denying that these truths apply to the BSA when you yourself said moral truths “always” apply. I am saying these observed truths mentioned by the CDF apply to any situation in which the homosexual agenda is being pushed (the BSA).

You still have not addressed my question about those that want to “come out” as having SSA being the same people that accept the lifestyle and want it normalized. This is absolutely factual and seems to not be considered by you. You are glossing over it as if it has no impact. The Church, in Her wisdom, needs to look past the mere words on paper and see where this is headed. The BSA is not a Church institution, so there is no reason to “hang around” and go down with the ship. All this will do is make the Catholic Church look even more irrelevant in the eyes of the world. This is all about making religion look irrelevant.

 

[Robert_Bay]

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[Baelor]

And I don’t share your thought that the troops will teach the Church’s truths.

Nor is there any reason that non-Catholic troops would anyway. Do we seriously expect a Buddhist troop to espouse the Church’s teaching?

Also, how do you address the CDF statement regarding those homosexuals that “come out” as being the same homosexuals that see the lifestyle as normal and acceptable?

Any equivocation between gays who come out and those that view the lifestyle as normal is simply factually incorrect.

Why announce having SSA if you see it as disorder? Most do not do this to garner prayers. Most people announce things about themselves when they are seeking affirmation.

You have asked this many times; you have been answered many times. To continue to ask the same thing when responses have been provided is, frankly, disingenuous at best and lying outright at worst.

 

[shocktrooper]

I know of one that will. I do not think I am the only Catholic in Catholic scouting left that is willing to speak up.

There are always exceptions. If my experience aligned with what you do as a teacher of the faith, then I would have less reservation about this.

Only in the same sense that it applies to a rock. I still believe it to be a strawman because no one, not one poster has denied the truth of the document posted. That is the definition of a strawman.

I never meant to imply that you are denying the truths of morality, but you are denying that these truths apply to the BSA when you yourself said moral truths “always” apply. I am saying these observed truths mentioned by the CDF apply to any situation or institution in which the homosexual agenda is being pushed (the BSA).

You still have not addressed my question about those that want to “come out” as having SSA being the same people that accept the lifestyle and want it normalized. This is absolutely factual and seems to not be considered by you. You are glossing over it as if it has no impact. The Church, in Her wisdom, needs to look past the mere words on paper and see where this is headed. The BSA is not a Church institution, so there is no reason to “hang around” and go down with the ship. All this will do is make the Catholic Church look even more irrelevant in the eyes of the world. This is all about making religion look irrelevant.

 

[Baelor]

In other words, those who would like us to believe that people who are afflicted with homosexual inclination are perfectly OK, as long as they remain celibate, are plain wrong.

What should the perspective be? They have a disordered sexuality, but do not act on it. Do you want them branded as well?

 

[Baelor]

You still have not addressed my question about those that want to “come out” as having SSA being the same people that accept the lifestyle and want it normalized. This is absolutely factual and seems to not be considered by you.

Again, not the case. There are posters on CAF who are openly gay but also adhering to the Church teachings.

I already have answered this question on several other threads, posting some (of many) reasons that someone would declare his homosexuality publicly. The fact that you ask other posters the same thing is extremely dishonest and disturbing as well.

 

[fix]

What you have quoted concerns the influence of adults over youth, not the other way around.
You can’t pick and choose the Church’s teaching to satify your opinon or beliefs.
If you can tell me were Christ said to take care of His sheep, except the gay ones, then I’ll agree with protestant brothers.
Deacon Frank

Before the gay propagandists forced the policy change was that policy contrary to the faith? Which Bishops said it was unjust?

 

[shocktrooper]

Again, not the case. There are posters on CAF who are openly gay but also adhering to the Church teachings.

Irrelevant! This does not nullify the CDF’s statement.

I already have answered this question on several other threads, posting some (of many) reasons that someone would declare his homosexuality publicly. The fact that you ask other posters the same thing is extremely dishonest and disturbing as well.

Baelor, I apologize for not reading all your postings. I believe I asked pnewton a question because I am interested in his thought on it. Maybe you can link to a post where you have given these reason.

I agree that there can be other reasons for “coming out” but as the CDF states, the primary reason is because they are seeking affirmation.

 

[fix]

I deleted this the first time, because I thought I was on the wrong thread, but I was wrong. Here it is again.

CatHerder (and those who agree with him/her),

PROVE IT. Show me one document that specifically bans persons with SSA from receiving services from any Church-sponsored group or ministry.

I’m waiting.

I have not read all the recent posts but I have asked anyone to show us where the policy that was in place for decades was unjust discrimination and to point out which bishops spoke against it?

 

[pnewton]

You still have not addressed my question about those that want to “come out” as having SSA being the same people that accept the lifestyle and want it normalized. This is absolutely factual and seems to not be considered by you.

I do not consider this “absolutely factual.” I find both “absolute” and “factual” used here not as absolutes or fact but as your opinion, or your observation. I do not believe in homosexuality among children as something which is real, but rather something which is taught culturally. The parents may have an agenda, but children do not as a rule have an agenda except pleasing parents.

You are glossing over it as if it has no impact. The Church, in Her wisdom, needs to look past the mere words on paper and see where this is headed.

I did not gloss over it. I am weary of difference of opinion being painted as some sort of fault. I am a fully functional human being capable of reading and disregarding irrelevant data. I am quite sure that Bishop Malone is also aware of the Church teaching on this as well. He does not gloss over anything just because he disagrees with abandoning Boy Scouts.

The BSA is not a Church institution, so there is no reason to “hang around” and go down with the ship.

No? Are there going to cease and be children in need if the Church withdraws? If people of faith do not speak to the Scouts that choose to remain and teach them the light of Christ, then who will? I think there are a lot of children that could be harmed by the withdrawal of this light. Were it impossible to stay true to Catholic doctrine, then I would agree with you. The Church does not believe the current policy mandates that they compromise principles. Even the SBC believe the current BSA policy allows a strong stance against homosexuality.

 

[fix]

In case anyone is wondering where all these Catholic supporters of the BSA are getting their support from:

catholicworldreport.com/Item/2314/Boy_Scouts_Bigotry_and_the_Catholic_Culture_Wars.aspx#.Ubn3kYl5mc1

I read that as well as some essays on the catholicthing.com and firstthings.com.

Some Catholic intellectuals have written some cogent and thought provoking articles.

 

[shocktrooper]

I deleted this the first time, because I thought I was on the wrong thread, but I was wrong. Here it is again.

CatHerder (and those who agree with him/her),

PROVE IT. Show me one document that specifically bans persons with SSA from receiving services from any Church-sponsored group or ministry.

I’m waiting.

No one is saying that someone with SSA shouldn’t or can’t “receive services from any Church-sponsored group or ministry”. Looking for a document that says something that no is saying would kind of be a waste of time here.

But if you meant a document that warns of the consequences of turning a blind eye to the homosexual agenda and how they manipulate institutions, then I don’t think we need to look any further than the CDF document already referenced.

 

[Baelor]

Irrelevant! This does not nullify the CDF’s statement.

You are blatantly misrepresenting the CDF’s statements:

CDF:

As a rule, the majority of homosexually oriented persons who seek to lead chaste lives do not publicize their sexual orientation. Hence the problem of discrimination in terms of employment, housing, etc., does not usually arise.

Homosexual persons who assert their homosexuality tend to be precisely those who judge homosexual behavior or lifestyle to be “either completely harmless, if not an entirely good thing” (cf. no. 3), and hence worthy of public approval.

The CDF recognizes that not every out homosexual is out to promote the homosexualist agenda. Why can you not?

Baelor, I apologize for not reading all your postings. I believe I asked pnewton a question because I am interested in his thought on it. Maybe you can link to a post where you have given these reason.

You responded to my posts with answers in them (without responding to my specific answers, of course). It is not my job to dig up ancient history because you chose not to respond at the time. Read through the old threads yourself, at least those that have not been deleted by now.

I agree that there can be other reasons for “coming out” but as the CDF states, the primary reason is because they are seeking affirmation.

The CDF never stated that the primary reason is that they are seeking affirmation. The CDF stated that a common reason is that they are seeking affirmation.

 

[gilliam]

I read that as well as some essays on the catholicthing.com and firstthings.com.

Some Catholic intellectuals have written some cogent and thought provoking articles.

Catholic intellectuals can speculate on all sorts of things. Bishops have a different calling, they are responsible for taking care of the flock. It is fun to read the intellectuals, but don’t get distracted, take your advice about what is or is not Catholic faith and moral teaching in this matter from those commissioned to care for you. In this case, the bishops.

 

[fix]

Catholic intellectuals can speculate on all sorts of things. Bishops have a different calling, they are responsible for taking care of the flock. It is fun to read the intellectuals, but don’t get distracted, take your advice about what is or is not Catholic faith and moral teaching in this matter from those commissioned to care for you. In this case, the bishops.

I agree. The point is what some bishops have said is a prudential matter. No one is bound under sin to agree with their prudential statements.

If you read most of the statements they are hardly a glowing endorsement of the policy. They offer a tentative analysis and await more information. And as I have pointed out none of them have said the old policy was immoral.

Folks may hope, pray, and lobby for the old policy to return. All licit and good.

 

[fix]

I have posted this link before. He sums it up well.

And another one here.