Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members [CWN]

[Sonic]

Boy Scout Exodus Has Begun

politicaloutcast.com/2013/05/boy-scout-exodus-has-begun/#.UaZ10zwrRwU.twitter

 

[zab]

Maybe it is just not in his nature to cut and run every time Satan throws an obstacle at us. Maybe he sees the value in staying and fighting for morality. That seems to be the bishop’s stance.

But how can one stay and fight for morality under the new resolution? The decision ruled by the Supreme Court in favor of the BSA to set their own moral code would no longer be in favor of any Scout Leader who preached a morality contrary to the decision that the boy has been allowed to make.

 

[on_the_hill]

However, exposing children to immorality should not be part of the package.

Agreed.

Maybe it has to do with the “environment” where the troop exists. I grew up in a very dysfunctional troop, that was made up of boys from very dysfunctional families (aside from mine, which was fine). Most of them were from single parent families, with no father figure, were involved with drugs and petty crime as young teenagers. I remember one kid walked in to a meeting and bragged about having VD (which is what we called it back then). He wasn’t the only kid who had one, either. They’d steal money from one another. One time my “patrol” mates spent the weekend camp out’s food money on pot. If a man walked in and had the talent and ability to save those kids, would it have mattered if he were gay?

Here, I’ll throw out what is likely a straw-man argument. Just for kicks:
Should a straight adult/Scout who has an active straight sex life be banned from Scouts?

 

[Sonic]

Agreed.

Maybe it has to do with the “environment” where the troop exists. I grew up in a very dysfunctional troop, that was made up of boys from very dysfunctional families (aside from mine, which was fine). Most of them were from single parent families, with no father figure, were involved with drugs and petty crime as young teenagers. I remember one kid walked in to a meeting and bragged about having VD (which is what we called it back then). He wasn’t the only kid who had one, either. They’d steal money from one another. One time my “patrol” mates spent the weekend camp out’s food money on pot. If a man walked in and had the talent and ability to save those kids, would it have mattered if he were gay?

[sign]**Guilt Trip

Because The Right Emotional Response
Is Needed To Validate A Narrative**[/sign]

Here, I’ll throw out what is likely a straw-man argument. Just for kicks:
Should a straight adult/Scout who has an active straight sex life be banned from Scouts?

Is he married or unmarried? Please clarify your question with specifics as that would go far as to determining how people will answer. Right now, your question is too vague.

 

[on_the_hill]

[sign]**Guilt Trip

Because The Right Emotional Response
Is Needed To Validate A Narrative**[/sign]
.

No, thanks anyway. I don’t need an emotional response to validate my own experiences. If you choose not to answer the question, just don’t answer.

Is he married or unmarried? Please clarify your question with specifics as that would go far as to determining how people will answer. Right now, your question is too vague.

After I posted I realized that might be confusing. Unmarried

 

[Momofmyangels]

Here, I’ll throw out what is likely a straw-man argument. Just for kicks:
Should a straight adult/Scout who has an active straight sex life be banned from Scouts?

An adult’s (or anyone’s for that matter) sex life is not an issue to be discussed in the presence of children. If an adult, married or not is in some way trying to advertise their encounters, brag, or push some agenda that their immoral acts are ok, then yes, they should be banned, and have no interaction with children.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Why would there be complaints? Are the girls just a bunch of androphobes??

You are correct, that is why they should tent alone and not share shower facilities with others. Which is what I have been advocating for.

I’m not a girl so I don’t really know.

Do you realize how impractical it can be to not share tents in some situations? Do you realize how expensive it would be to build a number of stand alone showers at each camp?

Not at either of the local Scout camps here. The only facilities with individual showers are the larger cabins.

All of the tent sites (where the Boy Scouts camp) share two gang showers. All of the outhouses on the tent camp sites have no dividers between the holes.

There are three larger cabins that have individual showers and even co-ed restrooms. Those are traditionally used by Cub Packs, as they often have mothers with them. They also have some individual adult rooms too, in case there are a mix of fathers and mothers camping

The smaller cabins have no showers and will use the same outdoor showers as the tent sites. Their outhouses do not have dividers between the stalls either.

Are you aware that the general reason people go to the shower is to… shower? Have you considered that basically no one is interested at looking at people while at a pit toilet?

Do you realise how easy it is to set up shower partitions? Ever heard of PVC?

Yes, and I’m sure there have been occasions of boys peeking into girls locker rooms at those various locations either. That doesn’t mean that we should install a window.

Would you claim that if a boy observed a girl in a state of undress while she did not know that a boy was watching, that the boy should not be excluded from the shower as 'there is nothing new to see"

A far more appropriate comparison is a girl going into a men’s restroom because the line is too long for the women’s restroom. Is it something awful if a female goes into the men’s restroom to use the toilet, washes her hands and then comes immediately out? There’s a huge difference between using the restroom and leering at people

Apparently in the past any one who claimed to be “gay” was dismissed. Now that it is open that is different.

Either sexual attraction makes a difference or it does not. Which is it?

How is the male/female issue different?

Sexual attraction doesn’t make a difference.

Because God made us male and female not gay or straight, left or right handed, or black or white?

Why not?

As I mentioned above, there have been boys who have peeked into girls lockers before, so wouldn’t it be, as you stated, ‘nothing new to see’.

There have been many cases of females using the male restrooms and I don’t remember something bad happen in those situations.

Correct, and as part of that, we have to teach what the Virtue of Modesty is, and the avoidance of near occasions of sin.

If a boy has SSAD, I agree, he needs good mentorship and guidance. But allowing him to tent and shower with others is not good mentorship. No more so that allowing a boy into a girls shower.

It is a near occasion of sin for one, and a violation of modesty for the others.

Yes, near occasions of sin, not remote occasions.

SSAD? Seems to conflate mental disorders and moral disorders.

Most guys have always been uncomfortable with gang showers and open facilities. Why do you think there have been so many “soap-on-a-roap” jokes told by men all these years? It’s because they are uncomfortable with such facilities.

I find your opinion unsettling to say the least.

Everyone one of of those jokes that I have heard about dropping the soap had to do with prisons.

If you don’t know…you’re not paying attention.

Actually in a lot of cases it isn’t apparent.

 

[Sonic]

If you choose not to answer the question, just don’t answer.

It would be foolish for me to answer such a question. You’ve created a scenario in which a hypothetical gay male comes to the rescue and saves needy children. It has no basis in reality. If you mean a specific person or case where this has happened, then you should cite it in reference. We are dealing with a topic that very much needs to be based on reality and facts, and not on fanciful conjectures.

After I posted I realized that might be confusing. Unmarried

Thank you.

 

[Sonic]

Everyone one of of those jokes that I have heard about dropping the soap had to do with prisons.

using my best Groucho Marx voice

I wouldn’t know. I don’t hang around in prisons. :whacky:

 

[zab]

Fr. Lappe’s Response to the New Boy Scouts
starofthesea.net/index.php/our-parish/blog/626-fr-lappes-response-to-new-boy-scouts

king5.com/news/local/Bremerton-priest-cuts-Ties-to-Boy-Scouts-209285331.html

 

[on_the_hill]

It would be foolish for me to answer such a question. You’ve created a scenario in which a hypothetical gay male comes to the rescue and saves needy children. It has no basis in reality. If you mean a specific person or case where this has happened, then you should cite it in reference. We are dealing with a topic that very much needs to be based on reality and facts, and not on fanciful conjectures.

On the one hand, most of this thread is hypothetical.

On the other hand, the scenario I described isn’t hypothetical. Those were real situations in a real Boy Scout Troop. The adult leaders of the troop were incompetent and barely held their own lives together. Thus the question recurs: If a man had stepped forward who had all the needed qualifications but was gay, should he have been rejected out-of-hand?

If it were up to me, I’m not entirely sure I would have rejected a man solely on his sexual orientation if he otherwise had all of the needed qualifications. Would it have been ideal? No, in my opinion it would not have been ideal. Would I want my son belonging to a troop where the leader is a gay man in a relationship? No, I would not be comfortable with that. But when straight men are unable or unwilling to provide the leadership, is it better for the program to fold?

 

[Brendan]

I’m not a girl so I don’t really know.

Do you realize how impractical it can be to not share tents in some situations? Do you realize how expensive it would be to build a number of stand alone showers at each camp?

Yes, I run a Scout troop. I know how much tents cost. But that would be the price to pay to do what the bishops ask of Scouting, to be a virtuous program.

Are you aware that the general reason people go to the shower is to… shower? Have you considered that basically no one is interested at looking at people while at a pit toilet?

I understand that. But there are valid reasons why the adults do not shower with the boys, nor the boys with the girls. And those same reasons apply to homosexual boys showering with other boys.

Do you realise how easy it is to set up shower partitions? Ever heard of PVC?

Send your plans to your local BSA camp. This are the things that would need to be in place before I consider bringing boys to camp in light of Catholic morality.

A far more appropriate comparison is a girl going into a men’s restroom because the line is too long for the women’s restroom. Is it something awful if a female goes into the men’s restroom to use the toilet, washes her hands and then comes immediately out? There’s a huge difference between using the restroom and leering at people

But I was referring to the showers, and so were you when you made that ‘nothing new to see’ comment.

Sexual attraction doesn’t make a difference.

The virtue of modesty does not depend on there being actual sexual attraction between the parties. I, as an adult male, would be in the wrong to attempt to shower with girls from my daughters AHG troop, though there would be zero sexual attraction. But it would still remain a gregarious violation of modesty, would it not

SSAD? Seems to conflate mental disorders and moral disorders.

I never claimed that it was a mental disorder, only that it was a disorder. So my statement is perfectly correct. Same Sex Attraction is a disorder. That is something no Catholic should deny.

 

[fix]

Sexual attraction doesn’t make a difference.

Because God made us male and female not gay or straight, left or right handed, or black or white?

.

Then co ed showers should be fine. The idea that sexual attraction plays no role is absurd. Are you a parent? I would like to see how many parents favor co- ed showers.

 

[fix]

The entire line of reasoning includes denial and disregards common sense in an attempt to allow what should not be allowed.

 

[pnewton]

But how can one stay and fight for morality under the new resolution? The decision ruled by the Supreme Court in favor of the BSA to set their own moral code would no longer be in favor of any Scout Leader who preached a morality contrary to the decision that the boy has been allowed to make.

There is nothing in the Scout moral code that prohibits Catholic morality from being taught. I think you are giving the Supreme Court ruling a spin that does not exist. Just as the BSA can set its own moral code, so can the Catholic Church. A leader or parent in a Catholic scouting group is more than permitted to speak of Church teaching. Likewise, if the group was co-sponsored by Mormons, or some mosque, that would teaching would be allowed.

The day may come when such speech is legally considered hate speech, but for now the Supreme Court ruling prohibits this possibility.

 

[on_the_hill]

I understand that. But there are valid reasons why the adults do not shower with the boys, nor the boys with the girls. And those same reasons apply to homosexual boys showering with other boys.

I guess my point is that homosexual boys are showering with straight boys now. If we were truly concerned about it, showers and changing facilities would already be strictly private.

 

[pnewton]

If a man walked in and had the talent and ability to save those kids, would it have mattered if he were gay?

Yes.

Here, I’ll throw out what is likely a straw-man argument. Just for kicks:
Should a straight adult/Scout who has an active straight sex life be banned from Scouts?He should not be leading a Girl Scout troop. As I have said before, homosexuality is disordered and gravely sin. Therefore, it is more akin to pedophilia than heterosexuality, which is not disordered or objectively sinful.

 

[Momofmyangels]

Thus the question recurs: If a man had stepped forward who had all the needed qualifications but was gay, should he have been rejected out-of-hand?

If it were up to me, I’m not entirely sure I would have rejected a man solely on his sexual orientation if he otherwise had all of the needed qualifications. Would it have been ideal? No, in my opinion it would not have been ideal. Would I want my son belonging to a troop where the leader is a gay man in a relationship? No, I would not be comfortable with that. But when straight men are unable or unwilling to provide the leadership, is it better for the program to fold?

A “gay man in a relationship” has already proven he does not have the needed qualifications to be a scout leader. His chosen lifestyle is contrary to the morally straight code of conduct that used to be held in high regard with the scouts. Furthermore, exposing children to this lifestyle and pretending that it is ok is wrong. So, yes, it would be better for the program to fold, than to subject children to an immoral lifestyle.

 

[fix]

But the BSA isn’t creating the attraction. I’m not sure I understand your point.

My feeling on this is essentially that it’s better for us to have the opportunity to show leadership and teach, mentor, and otherwise raise younger generations to be the types of future leaders that we need them to be.

As I said in another post the logic used is like the abortion logic. It is a baby when wanted and not a baby when not wanted. The gay apologists tell us when same sex attraction matters and when it does not matter. It is a double standard and self serving.

 

[fix]

[sign]Viewing The World Through Rose Colored Glasses.[/sign]

And gay affirmative glasses.