Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members [CWN]

[Brendan]

I can understand and sympathize with both views. I am concerned that a mass exodus of strong Catholics and Christians from Scouting will only hasten and make more certain any future changes in policy – basically making it a self-fulfilling prophecy that things will get worse. Then, those who left will then be able to say “I’m glad we left when we did”, even though by staying perhaps things could have turned out differently. But I can’t say I don’t understand why they’d want to leave and leave sooner rather than later…

We are very much taking a wait and see perspective. There is a level of seeing what the implementation details are.

A lot more of it has to do with seeing what ‘floats to the top’ in regards to Catholic specific programs.

As I mentioned in other threads, I kind of view it as how service clubs are. I have a lot of admiration for orgs such as Rotary and Kiwanis, but I will always prefer the KofC, specifically due to it 100% Catholic identity.

If a Catholic specific, or even generically Christian scouting experience for boys arises, that is where our troop will go. Not necessarily as a rejection of the BSA, but ‘Catholic’ trumps ‘generic Christian’ which trumps ‘generic religions’ which trumps secular.

The BSA is at the ‘generically religious’ level. So if there is a Catholic org that offers a solid scouting experience, that is where our Troop will go.

I do not wish the BSA any ill, but I am pleased to see their effective monopoly on scouting for boys is being broken and that Catholic and Christian programs are in development.

 

[fix]

I do not wish the BSA any ill, but I am pleased to see their effective monopoly on scouting for boys is being broken and that Catholic and Christian programs are in development.

Why is there such a focus to maintain this one organization even as it drifts into secular decay? Why not start one that has a Catholic identity? Is the BSA so integral to society that everyone has pretend there is no problem?

 

[Joe_5859]

We are very much taking a wait and see perspective. There is a level of seeing what the implementation details are.

A lot more of it has to do with seeing what ‘floats to the top’ in regards to Catholic specific programs.

As I mentioned in other threads, I kind of view it as how service clubs are. I have a lot of admiration for orgs such as Rotary and Kiwanis, but I will always prefer the KofC, specifically due to it 100% Catholic identity.

If a Catholic specific, or even generically Christian scouting experience for boys arises, that is where our troop will go. Not necessarily as a rejection of the BSA, but ‘Catholic’ trumps ‘generic Christian’ which trumps ‘generic religions’ which trumps secular.

The BSA is at the ‘generically religious’ level. So if there is a Catholic org that offers a solid scouting experience, that is where our Troop will go.

I do not wish the BSA any ill, but I am pleased to see their effective monopoly on scouting for boys is being broken and that Catholic and Christian programs are in development.

Good points. Here’s a Catholic one I came across that could be promising (they have canonical status as an “association of the faithful of pontifical right”).

 

[Joe_5859]

Why is there such a focus to maintain this one organization even as it drifts into secular decay? Why not start one that has a Catholic identity? Is the BSA so integral to society that everyone has pretend there is no problem?

This is much easier said than done. Transitioning 8,000+ troops and 500,000+ kids from one scouting entity to another is not something that can be accomplished through episcopal fiat.

If such a change occurs, I think it will happen much more organically. More and more Catholic troops may look to make some sort of switch.

If that’s the way things go, I wish no ill will to the Boy Scouts (to echo Brendan’s sentiments), but I would have no problem with that. My concern would be that the Catholic youth are properly ministered to through such transitions.

 

[Marauder]

A lot of people are talking about starting another organization. The problem is that it will take a long time for it to become anything that can remotely compete with BSA. BSA has a large number of summer camps, several high adventure bases and things like that already in place.

Any startup would even have to gain official recognition before you could even stay in many campsites that require youth camping permits. There is also a danger that in the attempt to create something new it starts to resemble things it never intended. An example was reading about someone’s proposal about the Knights of St. George. The organization didn’t allow women in any format, as a product of scouting from before women were admitted and saw it go through the transformation, not allowing women in any role is a mistake.

I think the better thing to do is to see how BSA is changing, let them make their rule changes and see what they are. See how they handle groups like the troop that marched in the gay pride pride in uniform against explicit orders. Then if things don’t work investigate alternatives. My bet is that your average Catholic troop will not notice any differences. Jumping out before things have any true impact on you, your family, etc. is over-reacting.

 

[pnewton]

Any startup would even have to gain official recognition before you could even stay in many campsites that require youth camping permits. There is also a danger that in the attempt to create something new it starts to resemble things it never intended.

I am all for competition. However, the BSA has cracked down on sexual abuse and made it much more difficult for a predator. If starting your own group becomes a thing too common, it would be all too easy for this to be a door to predation. The easier organization to molest children will become a target and the very thing one wishes to avoid will be made more likely. In fact, if there is an overnight startup frenzy, I predict this *will *happen.

 

[fix]

Jumping out before things have any true impact on you, your family, etc. is over-reacting.

I do not care whether folks stay or go but I do find this reasoning, which is common, to be a tad Polly Anna. In a culture so immersed in all things “Gay” and when the BSA had no reason to change, said it would not change, and then did change I think it a tad unreasonable to conclude we have seen the end of the issue.

 

[Joe_5859]

I am all for competition. However, the BSA has cracked down on sexual abuse and made it much more difficult for a predator. If starting your own group becomes a thing too common, it would be all too easy for this to be a door to predation. The easier organization to molest children will become a target and the very thing one wishes to avoid will be made more likely. In fact, if there is an overnight startup frenzy, I predict this *will *happen.

True. Starting up another organization involves a certain amount of re-inventing the wheel. But if the startups are affiliated with Catholic entities, perhaps their piggy-backing on the Safe Environment programs already in place would minimize the chance of predation.

 

[Dawnia]

I am all for competition. However, the BSA has cracked down on sexual abuse and made it much more difficult for a predator. If starting your own group becomes a thing too common, it would be all too easy for this to be a door to predation. The easier organization to molest children will become a target and the very thing one wishes to avoid will be made more likely. In fact, if there is an overnight startup frenzy, I predict this *will *happen.

If new Catholic groups require Virtus training for their leaders, that should help prevent the problem in Catholic groups.

 

[Marauder]

I do not care whether folks stay or go but I do find this reasoning, which is common, to be a tad Polly Anna. In a culture so immersed in all things “Gay” and when the BSA had no reason to change, said it would not change, and then did change I think it a tad unreasonable to conclude we have seen the end of the issue.

A similar line of reasoning can be said about a lot of things. The Catholic church gets in a lot of trouble for not allowing female priests, they use to not even allow females on the altar during Mass. Now they allow female readers and female altar servers. That doesn’t mean they will allow female priests.

If/when BSA allows openly homosexual adults or even forces you to allow them, then you leave. BSA has said the policy won’t go into effect until 2014 because it has to come up with the policies to deal with the situations. Instead of jumping ship right now, wait until you find out what the changes are.

Are they going to address shower/tenting issues or not?
Are they going to address someone that may do more then just say I am gay?

Find out what the changes are first. BSA has a lot going for it, no reason to start up the parallel organization until you find out whether you really want to leave.

 

[gilliam]

Are they going to address shower/tenting issues or not?
Are they going to address someone that may do more then just say I am gay?

.

Yes to both.

They will be released to all councils and on the membership standards website soon.

www.scouting.org/membershipstandards

 

[fix]

A similar line of reasoning can be said about a lot of things. The Catholic church gets in a lot of trouble for not allowing female priests, they use to not even allow females on the altar during Mass. Now they allow female readers and female altar servers. That doesn’t mean they will allow female priests.

If/when BSA allows openly homosexual adults or even forces you to allow them, then you leave. BSA has said the policy won’t go into effect until 2014 because it has to come up with the policies to deal with the situations. Instead of jumping ship right now, wait until you find out what the changes are.

Are they going to address shower/tenting issues or not?
Are they going to address someone that may do more then just say I am gay?

Find out what the changes are first. BSA has a lot going for it, no reason to start up the parallel organization until you find out whether you really want to leave.

I am not buying your analogy at all.

 

[BroomWagon]

If this was put in during the Bush Admin, it never came up before or if it happened, I’m sure we will hear about it.

As it is, total vindication for Sarah Palin, the Death Panels make their appearance and some would defend this??

 

[pnewton]

If new Catholic groups require Virtus training for their leaders, that should help prevent the problem in Catholic groups.

That would be a help, but much more is needed. Virtus is but a two hour training and is not really geared toward over night adventures. One thing they could do, new groups could pattern rules along the lines of the Boy Scouts. Like I said though, it only takes one group to play loose with this to become a target. Also, there is nothing to prevent some one with motives less than pure from starting their own group.

 

[mdgspencer]

This bishop obviously issued this statement partly so his people will better understand how Boy Scout’s have actually changed their policy. He says reports in the media that the Boy Scouts of American have changed their policy so that they will admit “openly gay” or “openly homosexual” young men, are false. Instead, their new policy states that “no youth may be denied membership on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.” Their policy also states that “any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual” by their youth is contrary to the virtues of scouting. At this time he concludes, there does not seem to be an obstacle to Catholic sponsorship of scouting units in his diocese. However, this bishop also says that more study is being carried out by the U.S. bishops on this issue. He also says he will be vigilant himself.
This bishop’s official statement is at www.dioceseofrockford.org/BSA

 

[NeedImprovement]

I think “officially” lifting the ban was the worse thing that could’ve been done. That would be what current evidence points to. I don’t envy any BSA officials, because the best remedy would be to revoke the decision - in light of ongoing developments. The signs aren’t that difficult to read, or to read into. But they who lifted the ban don’t seem to be able to admit they made a mistake.
Some comparative considerations beginning with

Scouts’ policy change said to be ‘not in conflict’ with church teaching

---

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1302430.htm

The above came from post #471 . When we compare that source to several others , certain facts would appear to come to light.

** I BSA Still Won’t Admit They Made a Mistake**

It isn’t something which could be called optimism , and the response of Bishop Robert E. Guglielmone of Charleston, S.C., - liaison to the committee for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops , is definitely more cautious than the position expressed by the head of the non-voting National Catholic Committee on Scouting Edward Martin’s is ; regardless of Mr. Martin saying he has spoken with Bishop Guglielmone. Bishop Guglielmone’s own statement said :

(from link provided by OP)
“I’m not particularly encouraged by it, but I knew it would happen eventually. As the policy change is right now promoted, we can live with it. Unfortunately, there are many people who are interpreting this policy to go much further than it actually does, particularly in the secular press.”

The secular press is where the homosexual lobby principally spin their deceptioncombined with intimidation. it’s the main stage for their convoluted theatrics - where they promote the majority of their lies.
Bishop Guglielmone’s words, if it doesn’t go any “farther” , suggests the situation may still be tolerable (personally I would hesitate to even call it salvageable – unless BSA revokes their decision)
… As markomalley said in several more recent posts , none of this was an issue until the gay lobby made it one. If our focus is on how the gay lobby themselves operate, and we admit they already have their foot in the door, the following quote is definitely a plausible conclusion, and a call to prayer too.

. . .
The Boy Scouts, as we have known them, committed suicide about a week ago…what you are seeing is just the corpse flopping around a bit.

Mr. Martin also quotes Canon Lawyer Edward Peters :

In it, Peters said, “Nothing in the new policy or in Boy Scout literature endorses or advocates the gay lifestyle; in fact all members are prohibited from using the Boy Scouts to promote ‘any social or political position or agenda.’”

But we saw those same words only recently in this article Boy Scouts can’t wear uniforms at gay pride parade, official says .

Upon closer inspection, a more detailed look brings several important inter-supporting factors to light that are being overlooked . . .

 

[NeedImprovement]

II The Pattern Used by the Homosexual Lobby is Repeating Itself

Canon Lawyer Edward Peters’ words again,from the linked article linked :

In it, Peters said, “Nothing in the new policy or in Boy Scout literature endorses or advocates the gay lifestyle; in fact all members are prohibited from using the Boy Scouts to promote ‘any social or political position or agenda.’”

Now here are the words spoken by Rick Barnes, chief scout executive of the Great Salt Lake Council

“We as a Scouting movement do not advocate any social or political position, so I reminded Mr. Brownstein that we do not wear uniforms at an event like this,” Barnes said. "We do not, as Boy Scouts, show support for any social or political position. . .
“That’s our official position. It always has been, there’s nothing new here,” he added. “We just don’t want people to use the Boy Scouts to advocate their positions.”

That last part , **“We just don’t want people to use the Boy Scouts to advocate their positions.” . . . ** isn’t that precisely , to a tee, what the homosexual lobby is doing right now with the BSA ?” It’s using BSA as a vehicle to further their agenda. . . to eradicate all opposition to the active homosexual lifestyle.


In this scenario most scouts themselves cannot be considered the perpetrators , but are rather, simply expendable victims used to further the homosexual agenda. I say ***most ***, because if the homosexual militants are moving on this , they already have instigators in place.

While we may prefer to think we’re waiting for the proposition of homosexual scout leaders to still materialize -that same article says some of the instigators – advocates of the homosexual agenda actually, whether or not they are willing to wear that label, are already in place. Again, if the gay militants are advancing, they already have at least some of their people in strategic positions. For all the bad things that can be said about them, their deviant deception and their perverted cause, these guys *do * all their homework – and they hand in their assignments on time.

Case in point:
Before receiving the directive not to wear their uniforms to a gay pride parade (post not pre openly gay admittance decision ) scoutmaster Brownstein said

“I am asking everyone to wear their Scout uniforms,” Brownstein, . . . said before receiving the notice from the scout executive. The message we want to send is that Scouting should be open to everyone and it’s a wonderful program and everyone deserves to be included and have the benefits of the program.”

Now look what Scoutmaster Brownstein appears to say (yes “appears” - what he is really saying will become more evident in the third section) after being informed of the no scout uniforms at gay pride parade directive ; he said later “

"Our current plan is to, out of respect for Rick as an individual, we will follow his request and I will not march in uniform. “Others may choose differently,” he added, noting he was aware of a father and son who planned to wear their uniforms.

Guys, he didn’t say he wouldn’t march in the gay pride parade – he only said he wouldn’t march in uniform . . . a scout leader.

 

[NeedImprovement]

III Scraping Below The Clever Cosmetics

It appears the gay militants have created and are going to continue creating an ongoing jumble of confusion on this issue within BSA – just like they always do before they go for the jugular.

And without implying any disrespect at all to Mr. Barnes as chief executive of one of the greatest youth serving movements from which I myself benefitted as a member in my youth , the BSA executives really don’t know what they’re up against ; and this critical juncture has to be the most inopportune time to be naïve. One surmises they’ve already been given a little taste of the powerlessness of their authority in the face of homosexual activism.

I will admit right away to having a generous helping of disrespect for Peter Brownstein. Why ? . . .,Because as a Scoutmaster, he knows very well the Scout’s Law says a scout is “trustworthy” and “loyal” – it doesn’t say anything about speaking with a forked tongue, or stabbing your superior in the back through the media as soon as he turns around, or being guileful and insolent in your efforts to ply BSA in favour of the normalization of active homosexuality.

When examined carefully, the following linked articles are eye-openers.

This one - Boy Scouts defy orders, wear uniforms in Utah gay pride parade ,says that Brownstein not only still marched in the parade, but that he wore

a T-shirt that carried the message of inclusive Scouting, with a rainbow square knot on it. His son, an Eagle Scout, and another Scout wore shirts promoting allowing gays in Scouting.

And in case no one noticed, the scouts who were disobediently in uniform marched at the front of the parade. They*** led ***the parade.

Scouts simply don’t belong at a gay pride parade. Scouts at a gay pride parade denigrates the scouting cause and smears its honour by using scouting as a tool for promotion and acceptance of active homosexuality.

This FOX 13 News video is particularly revealing it’s less than 3 minutes in length.
Boy Scouts in uniform march in Utah Gay Pride Parade

They open with participant commentary from a “former Scout master Dave McGrath “,(who is in uniform too) who said :

We’re thrilled with what happened last week but discrimination remains

Back up a minute . . . Who is “we” ? These are the homosexual activists – the gay militants speaking :“Discrimination remains” . . . What do you think that means ? Let’s see . . . . . .: Openly gay scouts are already admitted, which leaves . . . openly gay scoutmasters and leaders. -uch:

Next gay militant on the FOX 13 News podium to speak – Scoutmaster Peter Brownstein, whose tone has now changed to that of a victim :

“I was essentially intimidated and told not to wear my BSA uniform uh, so I am unfortunately not in my BSA uniform but am very glad that others have chose to do so”

“Former Scoutmaster Dave McGrath “ again,

There are members of the Great Salt Lake council participating today – their membership is at risk

And thus rather fortuitous that as the video concludes,The Great Salt Lake Council told FOX

the scouts will not be kicked out for marching in the parade

Great . . . the gay militants are already telling BSA “you have rules you can’t enforce with us . . . We dare you ! Go ahead and try.”

To review one other comment before drawing several conclusions : As activist and disobedient scoutmaster Peter Brownstein was organizing the scouts who would march in the gay pride parade, his disobedience elicited this directive publicly confirmed by Rick Barnes:

” If he wants to attend the parade and others do that are Scouts or Scouters, they’re welcome to do so as private citizens wearing whatever they want except their uniform."

 

[NeedImprovement]

IV What Can be Concluded

When I was in scouting as a member myself , the way I repeated my Scout’s Promise , didn’t say anything about “only while I’m in uniform”, but rather the inference was at all times- but especially in uniform. Today’s scout’s oath or promise is no different. So if not to disagree rather vigorously with the statement by Rick Barnes

If he (Brownstein) wants to attend the parade and others do that are Scouts or Scouters, they’re welcome to do so as private citizens wearing whatever they want except their uniform."

We may at least remark that it is perplexing why any “Scout” who the Scout’s Law says is “trustworthy” and who takes an oath to “ do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law . . . To keep myself . . . mentally awake and* morally **straight” * ,should ever have been encouraged to attend a gay pride parade in the first place ? It is not tacit, but rather explicit via participation, blatant **approval and confirmation of active homosexuality **– which Fr. John Hardon says is “always morally indefensible.”

I wonder if the Executives and officials of BSA fully understand that the definitive identifying hallmark of the homosexual lifestyle is sexual promiscuity ?

I wonder if the Executives and officials of BSA have ever been to a gay pride parade or at least seen footage of what actually takes place at some of them ? . . . broad daylight and in front of younger children too ! The ones they have here in Montreal can get pretty disgusting as far as public displays go.

I believe it is Scoutmaster Peter Brownstein who by his insolence and disobedience, pressured Rick Barnes into issuing a rash statement - an act which reveals itself as being devoid of any genuine , um ,

" respect for Rick as an individual . . . "

and confirmed by his tone on the video ,

“I was essentially intimidated and told not to wear my BSA uniform. . .

i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww173/prestonjjrtr/Smileys/tantrum.gif

So, let’s get this straight: You *respect Rick as an individual *, until you get to the parade and in front of the camera - where you start crying that you’re a victim of intimidation by, well, Rick. . . that horrible tyrant ! :tsktsk:

This is not the type of Scoutmaster who can be trusted . . . need we add “with anyone else’s children” ?

(Sorry I can’t recall the post exactly, but) one of our members saw it as just a couple of scouts who attended a gay pride parade.

Are you sure that isn’t what they want you to think ? It could actually play right into the homosexual activists’ hands. Sometimes the image of only one or two” victims” makes BSA appear as the big evil organization which is still rife with homophobia and discrimination (thankyou former Scoutmaster Dave McGrath).

Mr. Martin recommends we should

Seek understanding of the resolution, the church’s teaching on the subject, and to pray for wisdom. Change is hard, especially when we don’t understand why it’s occurring,

I personally have no problem in understanding “why” it is occurring.

I would also personally hope, those well-intentioned and in charge at BSA would, very soon, begin to seriously take a closer look at the subtle deception and intimidation tactics of the homosexual militants which are starting to emerge as something much less subtle. One has to wonder how productive efforts to assuage people’s legitimate concerns are going to be while the BSA still can’t even admit their fatal error of opening the door to the gay militants.

If Mr. Martin wishes to confront the assault head-on , I believe it in his best interests to do an about face. The attack is coming from the other direction. His biggest problem is the gay militants , and when the BSA very unwisely opened the door ,the homosexual activists immediately barged right in even ahead of the (hypothetical . . . . theoretical. . . ?) openly gay scouts:

They aren’t trying to put the uniform at the gay pride parade – they’re going to put the gay pride parade in the uniform. That should be a major concern. It’s a valid one when we already have gay militant scout leaders dishonorably publicly tearing holes in the fabric of BSA to further the normalization of active homosexuality .

Mr. Martin referred to another quote from Canon Lawyer Peters

"But, unless and until that conclusion is demonstrated on the evidence – and not largely on predictions. . . “

I don’t know precisely how long ago Edward Peters wrote that , but these aren’t predictions , this is the “live broadcast” – the "play by play". The evidence is already coming in - for those who know how to unmask it .

And perhaps someone might wish to point out to Mr. Martin that the whining machine he’s hearing in the background doesn’t have an “off” switch - it runs on homosexual activism – not goodwill , it’s antithesis.

 

[Catherine_S]

I hope the homosexuals who join the Boy Scouts of America will behave in a more decent way than the many who entered the priesthood in our Catholic Church did. Hopefully, the Boy Scouts of America will not* have to **face huge scandals ( as the church has had to face in terms of homosexuality)down the road. *

"In the Diocese of Rockford, 42 scouting units are sponsored by Catholic parishes or organizations. At this time the new standard adopted by the Boy Scouts of America does not seem to provide an obstacle to our continued sponsorship of those troops or of scouting, as long as Catholic principles of morality are followed."
.
Followed as they were in the Church!!!
For me, this statement says the Shepherds look the other way when they see the wolf entering the sheep fold :bighanky:!!