Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members [CWN]

[Cat_Herder]

You can say “patrol leader”. I will not. The letter does not. “Read it carefully” (and don’t add or read into it). The policy applies to membership.

if you get sued for restricting participation.membership and participationthey will NOT protect you

Like I said, if you do not want to say anything, that is up to you. Rest assured I can and will speak against the sin of homosexuality if the question arises in a Catholic scouting context, as the Baptist group was told they could do. I am sure that I am not the only Catholic to be willing to do so.

I pray to God that you do not get sued.

Nothing in the policy or Catholic theology prohibits this.

A CDF document certainly counts as theological, no?

I am not backing down or surrendering the BSA to the homosexual activists.

I totally sympathize with why you want to stay in and fight. But you have to remember that this is the same BSA who told us back in 2012 that the previous policy was “the absolute best policy for Scouting.” One year later they announce plans to change the policy. Why? Because Intel and UPS dropped funding and the Executive Committee didn’t want to take a pay cut.

So the BSA isn’t yours or mine to defend. It belongs to corporate donors who want to transform it into a generic junior ropes course that inculcates their values. That is where it is going. With the policy change, the protections won in court no longer apply and there are big lawsuits on the horizon that will force the BSA down a dark path. You do not have the millions of dollars necessary to buy off the BSA and get it to change course. All you can do is quit, and encourage others to do so, and pray that when the BSA realizes they have megabuck$$$ but no membership or volunteers, they will go to Reconciliation, so to speak.

The good news is that the BSA is not Scouting. There are other Scouting and Scouting-like youth development programs that are actually Catholic, like:
The Federation of North-American Explorers - currently seeking “the right leaders who will ensure the sustainable success of a new FNE group”
Columbian Squires of the Knights of Columbus
FRATERNUS

We are supposed to be in the midst of a New Evangelization. Anything that does not fit with the re-evangelization of the world is dead wood that needs to be chucked. It broke my heart to resign, and I know it’s hard, but it is the only right thing to do. Check my profile if you want to see more information on the issue. I link to threads so you can see how I’ve answered the arguments of the other side. I’m not pushing an agenda. I want what is best for children.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Yes, I am familiar with FNE. Great org.

I’ve know about for over a year now and have friends in it.

Which is why I wouldn’t think of getting them involved in all this mess

You don’t have to get them involved in a mess, you just need to encourage FNE to grow while maintaining the quality of their program. I really think that FNE, like Columbian Squires, Fraternus, Blue Knights, etc. would have grown a lot more but for the BSA taking up all of the attention.

 

[markomalley]

You do know that most boys today are heterosexual but they see homosexual behavior and lifestyle as completely harmless… you do know that, right? This is 2013, not 20 years ago.

This is EXACTLY what the CDF pointed out in their 1986 letter (extracted more fully in post #602, above):
Nevertheless, increasing numbers of people today, even within the Church, are bringing enormous pressure to bear on the Church to accept the homosexual condition as though it were not disordered and to condone homosexual activity…There is an effort in some countries to manipulate the Church by gaining the often well-intentioned support of her pastors with a view to changing civil-statutes and laws. This is done in order to conform to these pressure groups’ concept that homosexuality is at least a completely harmless, if not an entirely good, thing.
As I have stated before, this has got nothing to do with young, confused kids. This has got everything to do with homosexual activists like Mr. McGrath, who honored us all with his presence yesterday.

 

[rossum]

Now I am really confused. Catholic bishops are now on board with sexual orientation?

I think it is called “Love the sinner; hate the sin.” Since boys with heterosexual orientation are allowed in the scouts, but encouraged not to act on their orientation, then why not treat boys with homosexual orientation the same way.

Remember the original Scouts’ statement:

The resolution also reinforces that Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.

Source: Boy Scouts of America Statement

Obviously the Bishop does not have a problem with that statement: “Any sexual conduct … is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.” For myself, I cannot see why the Bishop would have a problem with it either. The sinners, the boys themselves, are loved. The sin, sexual conduct, is against the rules.

rossum

 

[pnewton]

I refer you to the voting member packet, page 33, where BSA discusses both membership and participation and it clearly implies that they will NOT protect you if you get sued for restricting participation.

I pray to God that you do not get sued.

Uh, welcome to the world.* Nothing* protects us from getting sued. Fortunately, we still have a First Amendment. The Supreme Court has always upheld this particular form of religious speech.

A CDF document certainly counts as theological, no?http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...faith_doc_19920724_homosexual-persons_en.html

Correct. No.

*There are areas in which it is **not **unjust discrimination to take sexual orientation into account, for example, in the placement of children for adoption or foster care, in employment of teachers or athletic coaches, and in military recruitment. *

The good news is that the BSA is not Scouting. There are other Scouting and Scouting-like youth development programs that are actually Catholic, like:

My BSA group is also Catholic. If the majority choose to change, or if our bishop requests we change, then we will. If not, I stay.

 

[Cat_Herder]

No one says you must make them SPL or even advance them if they are promoting a lifestyle that goes against Scouting Standards. In fact if they are advocating such behavior that goes against BSA policy and you can go so far as to remove them from the program.

Page 33 of the VMP, again.

You do know that most boys today are heterosexual but they see homosexual behavior and lifestyle as completely harmless… you do know that, right? This is 2013, not 20 years ago.

You’re directing this against the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, not me. What you quoted and attacked came straight out of the Vatican. And so, you’ve just revealed your agenda to change the Church.

There it is, folks.

 

[buffalo]

I think it is called “Love the sinner; hate the sin.” Since boys with heterosexual orientation are allowed in the scouts, but encouraged not to act on their orientation, then why not treat boys with homosexual orientation the same way.

Remember the original Scouts’ statement:
The resolution also reinforces that Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.

Source: Boy Scouts of America StatementObviously the Bishop does not have a problem with that statement: “Any sexual conduct … is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.” For myself, I cannot see why the Bishop would have a problem with it either. The sinners, the boys themselves, are loved. The sin, sexual conduct, is against the rules.

rossum

The issue I have is with the term “sexual orientation”. It seems to me a concession to the secular view.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Uh, welcome to the world.* Nothing* protects us from getting sued. Fortunately, we still have a First Amendment. The Supreme Court has always upheld this particular form of religious speech.

BSA is not a governmental organization. They’re private and so they have the right to adopt this policy. The First Amendment will not protect you from them.

My BSA group is also Catholic. If the majority choose to change, or if our bishop requests we change, then we will. If not, I stay.

Pray for your bishop and all of the bishops that they will make the right decision (even if you disagree with me on what it is).

 

[Brendan]

You don’t have to get them involved in a mess, you just need to encourage FNE to grow while maintaining the quality of their program. I really think that FNE, like Columbian Squires, Fraternus, Blue Knights, etc. would have grown a lot more but for the BSA taking up all of the attention.

I will

My greatest hope from all of this is that other, fully CATHOLIC organizations can take flight now.

As I’ve stated a lot in this thread, I have nothing against the BSA (but that whole business about owning the copyright to NCCS does inspire the first animosity I’ve felt yet)

The Catholic Church, having the fullness of moral Truth, is in the best position to develop virtue in young men. Therefore I would like to see organizations develop that are fully Catholic in every aspect and at every level of the organization.

I think European Scouting was on to something when so many countries split off their programs from traditional Scouting. That is a model long overdue here.

My girls are in American Heritage Girls, and I am in the KofC. When the ‘Stop HHS’ mandate rallys were happening, our AHG Troop was out in full force, the Knights were there in fully regalia. The boys were there as spectators alone.

It was announced in MI that an organization is going to attempt to put gay marriage back on the ballot in Michigan in 2016. I know the AHG Troop again will be out to support traditional marriage. I know the Knights will be there again. I want my boys to be there in uniform

I want an organization that will not only permit their boys to participate in uniform, but darn near DEMAND that they do so.

The BSA is not that org.

 

[BroomWagon]

Page 33 of the VMP, again.

You’re directing this against the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, not me. What you quoted and attacked came straight out of the Vatican. And so, you’ve just revealed your agenda to change the Church.

There it is, folks.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I will

My greatest hope from all of this is that other, fully CATHOLIC organizations can take flight now.

As I’ve stated a lot in this thread, I have nothing against the BSA (but that whole business about owning the copyright to NCCS does inspire the first animosity I’ve felt yet)

The Catholic Church, having the fullness of moral Truth, is in the best position to develop virtue in young men. Therefore I would like to see organizations develop that are fully Catholic in every aspect and at every level of the organization.

I think European Scouting was on to something when so many countries split off their programs from traditional Scouting. That is a model long overdue here.

My girls are in American Heritage Girls, and I am in the KofC. When the ‘Stop HHS’ mandate rallys were happening, our AHG Troop was out in full force, the Knights were there in fully regalia. The boys were there as spectators alone.

It was announced in MI that an organization is going to attempt to put gay marriage back on the ballot in Michigan in 2016. I know the AHG Troop again will be out to support traditional marriage. I know the Knights will be there again. I want my boys to be there in uniform

I want an organization that will not only permit their boys to participate in uniform, but darn near DEMAND that they do so.

The BSA is not that org.

AMEN to everything you just said!

Thanks to both of you for your help! Spread the word!

 

[Cat_Herder]

You MUST read this thread over here on Catholic News regarding a similar statement.

Long story short, the bishops who are coming out in favor of the BSA have not read:

1. The letter that the BSA sent to its councils ahead of the vote; or
2. This document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

 

[MidnightSun12]

I think it is called “Love the sinner; hate the sin.” Since boys with heterosexual orientation are allowed in the scouts, but encouraged not to act on their orientation, then why not treat boys with homosexual orientation the same way.

But this whole issue with BSA is not about acting on sexual desires. Obviously, the boyscouts will not be endorsing any sexual conduct among its members (doing so would be illegal because they are minors). The issue is with representing homosexual attraction as being equal to heterosexual attraction. This will hurt children during their most formative years and lead to immoral lifestyle choices when they grow up (especially those that will experience SSA).

 

[Cat_Herder]

But this whole issue with BSA is not about acting on sexual desires. Obviously, the boyscouts will not be endorsing any sexual conduct among its members (doing so would be illegal because they are minors). The issue is with representing homosexual attraction as being equal to heterosexual attraction. This will hurt children during their most formative years and lead to immoral lifestyle choices when they grow up (especially those that will experience SSA).

You are correct, which is why the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith told us not to let it happen by enacting something like this new BSA policy.

 

[april32010]

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
SOME CONSIDERATIONS
CONCERNING THE RESPONSE TO LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS
ON THE NON-DISCRIMINATION OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19920724_homosexual-persons_en.html

Homosexual persons who assert their homosexuality tend to be precisely those who judge homosexual behavior or lifestyle to be “either completely harmless, if not an entirely good thing” (cf. no. 3), and hence worthy of public approval. It is from this quarter that one is more likely to find those who seek to “manipulate the Church by gaining the often well-intentioned support of her pastors with a view to changing civil statutes and laws” (cf. no. 5), those who use the tactic of protesting that “any and all criticism of or reservations about homosexual people… are simply diverse forms of unjust discrimination” (cf. no. 9)

.

1. Finally, where a matter of the common good is concerned, it is inappropriate for Church authorities to endorse or remain neutral toward adverse legislation even if it grants exceptions to Church organizations and institutions. The Church has the responsibility to promote family life and the public morality of the entire civil society on the basis of fundamental moral values, not simply to protect herself from the application of harmful laws (cf. no. 17).

 

[WingsOfEagles]

Just as we would not tell a homosexual that they could not enter a Catholic Church, we should not tell a homosexual that they can not participate in Boy Scouts. That’s what Bishop Malone is getting at, I think.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Just as we would not tell a homosexual that they could not enter a Catholic Church, we should not tell a homosexual that they can not participate in Boy Scouts. That’s what Bishop Malone is getting at, I think.

Again, I don’t think the Bishop has (had time to) read the relevant CDF guidance and apply it to this situation.

 

[buffalo]

Again, I don’t think the Bishop has (had time to) read the relevant CDF guidance and apply it to this situation.

Perhaps he didn’t. I believe unless he further clarifies this is a source of scandal to the faithful. That is why I focused on the term “sexual orientation”.

 

[rossum]

But this whole issue with BSA is not about acting on sexual desires. Obviously, the boyscouts will not be endorsing any sexual conduct among its members (doing so would be illegal because they are minors). The issue is with representing homosexual attraction as being equal to heterosexual attraction. This will hurt children during their most formative years and lead to immoral lifestyle choices when they grow up (especially those that will experience SSA).

But at that age both heterosexual attraction and homosexual attraction are to be treated equally: both are illegal and both are sinful. How would you treat tham differently at that age?

rossum

 

[Elizium23]

But at that age both heterosexual attraction and homosexual attraction are to be treated equally: both are illegal and both are sinful. How would you treat tham differently at that age?

Neither is illegal and neither is sinful. Homosexual attraction is intriniscally disordered, while heterosexual attraction is not.