Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members [CWN]

[Cat_Herder]

But at that age both heterosexual attraction and homosexual attraction are to be treated equally: both are illegal and both are sinful. How would you treat tham differently at that age?

rossum

Actually neither form of attraction is sinful unless consented to. However, heterosexual attraction is normal and homosexual attraction is disordered. The CDF doc spells this out.

 

[Ruthie_again]

The CDF paper is about laws, not about rules in private organizations.

As for the letter sent to BSA councils, its first paragraph is

1. Is the BSA endorsing homosexuality and forcing its chartered organizations to do
   the same?
   No. That is not the role of the organizations, and Scouting is not the place to resolve
   divergent viewpoints in society. By reinforcing that Scouting is a youth program, and
   any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age
   is contrary to the virtues of Scouting, and that no member may use Scouting to
   promote or advance any social or political position or agenda, this policy rightly
   recognizes there is a difference between kids and adults while remaining true to the
   long-standing virtues of Scouting.

What’s wrong with that?

In fact, 3 out of 4 of the 4 statements in that letter repeat the message about sexual conduct.

The best thing we can do is welcome them with open arms and prove to them that the Church is not homophobic.

Praying for all homosexuals,

 

[Cat_Herder]

The CDF paper is about laws, not about rules in private organizations.

The fact that you’ve resorted to gnat-straining shows you can’t address this on the merits. If you look elsewhere at the CDF paper, you’ll see that there is an acute concern not only about laws but about* the Church and her pastors being manipulated to lobby for laws.*

Homosexual persons who assert their homosexuality tend to be precisely those who judge homosexual behavior or lifestyle to be “either completely harmless, if not an entirely good thing” (cf. no. 3), and hence worthy of public approval. It is from this quarter that one is more likely to find those who seek to “manipulate the Church by gaining the often well-intentioned support of her pastors with a view to changing civil statutes and laws” (cf. no. 5), those who use the tactic of protesting that “any and all criticism of or reservations about homosexual people… are simply diverse forms of unjust discrimination” (cf. no. 9).

That is EXACTLY what’s going on.

 

[Cat_Herder]

As for the letter sent to BSA councils, its first paragraph is

1. Is the BSA endorsing homosexuality and forcing its chartered organizations to do
   the same?
   No. That is not the role of the organizations, and Scouting is not the place to resolve
   divergent viewpoints in society. By reinforcing that Scouting is a youth program, and
   any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age
   is contrary to the virtues of Scouting, and that no member may use Scouting to
   promote or advance any social or political position or agenda, this policy rightly
   recognizes there is a difference between kids and adults while remaining true to the
   long-standing virtues of Scouting.
   What’s wrong with that?

From the CDF:
10. “Sexual orientation” does not constitute a quality comparable to race, ethnic background, etc. in respect to non-discrimination. Unlike these, homosexual orientation is an objective disorder (cf. Letter, no. 3) and evokes moral concern.

1. There are areas in which** it is not unjust discrimination to take sexual orientation into account, for example, in the placement of children for adoption or foster care, in employment of teachers or athletic coaches,** and in military recruitment…
   Homosexual persons who assert their homosexuality tend to be precisely those who judge homosexual behavior or lifestyle to be “either completely harmless, if not an entirely good thing” (cf. no. 3), and hence worthy of public approval. It is from this quarter that one is more likely to find those who seek to “manipulate the Church by gaining the often well-intentioned support of her pastors with a view to changing civil statutes and laws” (cf. no. 5), those who use the tactic of protesting that “any and all criticism of or reservations about homosexual people… are simply diverse forms of unjust discrimination” (cf. no. 9).

 

[buffalo]

The CDF paper is about laws, not about rules in private organizations.

As for the letter sent to BSA councils, its first paragraph isWhat’s wrong with that?

In fact, 3 out of 4 of the 4 statements in that letter repeat the message about sexual conduct.

The best thing we can do is welcome them with open arms and prove to them that the Church is not homophobic.

Praying for all homosexuals,

Watch what happens when an openly gay scout is counseled about chastity. Parents bring a lawsuit and it’s game over.

 

[Dave_McGrath]

…but sexuality in the context of scouting…

I didn’t light this fire. I was 13 years old in the Boy Scouts when the original 1978 secret memorandum was written. I’m trying to eject sexuality from scouting. Therefore the status quo must go.

1978 Memorandum
bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa_gay_policy.html#1978

1991 Policy
bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa_gay_policy.html#Eagletter

1993 Policy Revision
bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa_gay_policy.html#93Position

2013 Policy Resolution
scouting.org/sitecore/content/MembershipStandards/Resolution/Resolution.aspx

2013 Policy Explanation (Note “BSA is not advocating any … advocacy or acceptance for or against homosexual behavior”)
bacbsa.org/document/scouting-and-socialpolitical-causes-memo/127299

 

[Dave_McGrath]

Actually, we prefer to worship at the altar where Heaven is joined to Earth and listen to God as opposed to the APA.

I am committed to the real. I am commmitted to avoiding harm here. Now.

I am unaware of ongoing prophecy within Catholocism. The prophecy I see is all retrospective. I am told God’s Son reduced all religion to two commandments: Love God. Love your neighbor.

The trick is in keeping both commandments.

Hillel The Elder taught us: “That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.”

 

[Dave_McGrath]

As said before, on the issue of gay rights, Mormons may see same sex marriage as a gateway to polygamy, thus, they can acquiesce but if Mormons are the biggest interest groups, BSA must not be that big to begin with.

Two problems:

1. 
   *]Straw man fallacy. I haven’t heard the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (largest Mormon denomination) advocate for a return to polygamy.
   *]Argumentum ad populum fallacy: BSA must not be that big to begin with.
   
   The first fallacy is fun to think about. But I live in a village with 96% Mormons. I am simply reporting there has been no discussion on this other than revulsion at the idea that non-Mormons think this.
   
   The second fallacy is also fun to think about. Indeed: Mormons only represent less than 2% of the US population, but own 49% of all scouting units. So there is that.
   scouting.org/About/FactSheets/operating_orgs/Latter-day_Saints.aspx

 

[mitex]

Text of the repeal resolution for homosexually oriented youth:
Quote:

AND WHEREAS, Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting; and

Essentially they have to be chaste heterosexual or homosexual. Please tell me how you can discriminate against a chaste teen with same-sex attraction??

Doesn’t the Catechism teach “respect and sensitivity” and oppose “unjust discrimination?” on this issue?

Why are we talking excluding them on the basis of something they had no choice over especially if they’re required to uphold themselves in a moral manner as dictated by traditional Christian sexual ethics?

I have a homosexual orientation, I’m celibate, and I’m an Eagle Scout. I find it offensive and hurtful that some members want to exclude even celibate homosexuals from Boy Scouts. I’ve always been celibate; growing up BSA did wonders for my confidence and masculinity.

This is precisely why gays hate Churches and Christianity. Because of people who want to exclude and discriminate even against people who are faithful but have same-sex attraction.

It’s hypocritical and it’s in opposition to Christ’s love, and the way Jesus acted. Jesus didn’t exclude anyone especially sinners, and the outcast. Matter of fact he hung with them, and loved them radically.

Jesus didn’t minister to pure legalists like the Pharisees. He was opposed to them. He came to save people like lepers, prostitutes, homosexuals, and adulterers. Not exclude them. He welcomed them in and changed their lives radically.

Has anyone ever considered that a moral development program like Boy Scouts would benefit teens with SSA? I know it did for me.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I have a homosexual orientation, I’m celibate, and I’m an Eagle Scout. I find it offensive and hurtful that some members want to exclude even celibate homosexuals from Boy Scouts. I’ve always been celibate; growing up BSA did wonders for my confidence and masculinity.

Unless you would have been openly promoting your orientation, nobody would have wanted you out. And under the old policy, they were prohibited from even investigating. I’ve specified here why the new policy is unfair to homosexuals as well and I’d like to get your thoughts on the matter.

 

[mitex]

Unless you would have been openly promoting your orientation, nobody would have wanted you out. And under the old policy, they were prohibited from even investigating. I’ve specified here why the new policy is unfair to homosexuals as well and I’d like to get your thoughts on the matter.

The old policy was nightmare. I lived in constant fear of someone finding out, and kicking me out. No one is promoting sin here. This is the right thing to do, and most of the Bishops no that. And matter of fact I eventually had to leave after earning my Eagle Scout because the boy scouts did what the US military did.

They did ask. They did involuntarily investigations into people’s lives to find out.

The old policy was nothing but a nightmare.

And getting back on the subject, Bishop Malone is right. As is the Catholic Committee on Scouting. You’re entitled to believe it was the wrong decision. But most Scouts and Scouters like myself belief this is the right decision that was balanced by declaring the gay political agenda, and homosexual activity immoral while distinguishing that sexual orientation was not the issue. The gay agenda was. Not sexual orientation.

But as for me I will be celebrating this as something that no young scout will ever have to go through again. Living in constant fear and pain of someone finding out your secret and then ruining your life for it.

I see this as a blessing that was fair, and balanced.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I feel that there is going to be a war between societies’ decision to promote the gay lifestyle and the biblical teaching of the Church. I feel that the Church needs to distance itself from the political, social issues concerning gays, and delve into the salvation of souls. This should be the number one priority of the Church. .

 

[april32010]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116150 CONDUCT RULES

Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.

i believe this applies , 26 posts in 36 hours

 

[april32010]

Please, don’t put words in my mouth. I am not advocating sexual immorality.

yes you are,same sex relations are immoral

 

[Dave_McGrath]

Yes. It’s not hard to parse: “I am demonstrating against the ban on LGBT persons by the Boy Scouts of America. A Federally Chartered Title 36 Chapter 309 patriotic institution.”

Here is a picture that may blow your mind: Me with my minister. So there is indeed a “we.”
lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mzpJErn_tEk/UbTdd2dSSBI/AAAAAAAAWSk/XbIpcCPjN8A/w701-h526-no/DSCN1134.JPG

Or, me and my son. Or, me and my gay identical twin brother. Or me and my entire family of seven children - six sons and a daughter - two of our sons are gay.

Or, me and millions of other Americans who object to the policy of discrimination. Remember, 61.4% of the voting members of the Boy Scouts of America National Conference voted to modify the policy to remove the most obvious and odious ban against gay children. So there are those people too, and the organizations they represent.

“We?” Indeed. We. U.S. All of us. Together.

Your point? Just ask. You’ll find I’ll not prevaricate. Nor shall I break either of the two commandments: Love God and Love your Neighbor.

Peace.

 

[rossum]

Neither is illegal and neither is sinful. Homosexual attraction is intriniscally disordered, while heterosexual attraction is not.

You are right. My apologies for not being clearer. At that age, acting on either attraction is illegal and sinful.

rossum

 

[fix]

No it hasn’t. Not once. The CDF document has to do with putting open homosexual youth in teaching (i.e. leadership/mentoring) positions. The CDF has already said not to do this. But the zombies aren’t listening to the Vatican.

Before the gay activists changed the policy did the Church support the old policy? Did She say it was unjust? I ask because the narrative now is to claim the change does not violate Catholic teaching, yet the old policy did not either.

 

[Cat_Herder]

The old policy was nightmare. I lived in constant fear of someone finding out, and kicking me out.

But the problem wasn’t the old policy, which as you know prohibited them from trying to investigate your sexual orientation unless you brought it out. It was the people administering the policy who wronged you.

No one is promoting sin here.

The trouble is that the homosexual orientation is disordered. Now you’re not acting on it, and that means you aren’t sinning–however, someone who promotes it as normal would be misleading the kids. Like I mentioned in that post, it will be impossible for that not to come up . And Scouts who are gay are going to be segregated out and embarrassed. It feels like a no-win situation but I do think that had the old policy been administered correctly, no one would have given you any trouble.

 

[markomalley]

Before the gay activists changed the policy did the Church support the old policy? Did She say it was unjust? I ask because the narrative now is to claim the change does not violate Catholic teaching, yet the old policy did not either.

Did the old policy explicitly state “it’s OK if a Boy Scout has announced a proclivity for homosexual conduct”?

Or did the old policy simply not address the “sexual preference” of the boys one way or the other?

Think about the military for a bit. The homosexual activists stated that “don’t ask, don’t tell” was forcing them to live a lie. They conveniently neglected to mention (and most of the public seemed to have forgotten) that prior to “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”, homosexuality was asked about, investigated, and cause for less than honorable discharge.

The narrative they crafted was that “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” was something unjust done to them…when, in fact, the opposite wasn’t the case.

Seems to me that Mr. McGrath and other homosexual activists are trying to apply the same level of double-speak here. They imply that prior to this “policy change” by the BSA, an 11 year old boy would have been free to announce that he is homosexual. I would bet that an actual examination of history would reveal nothing of the sort.

Bottom line: if an activist tries to tell you history, verify it.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Anyone else ever periodically get a little tired of this constant barrage of bovine byproducts brought onto Catholic forums ,implying this is somehow supposed to be all our fault . . . ?. . .just because we don’t fall for that . . . i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk157/dyedinthewool/Smilies/nuts.gif * * * *

We are so blessed as Catholics to have the sacrament of Reconciliation - it keeps us honest with ourselves.

If it were up to me, I would be much more likely to consider as credible, someone who wanted to speak to us about homosexuality but who also availed himself of the sacrament of Reconciliation - simply because I know what the sacrament of Reconciliation does for me : In the admission and absolution of my sins, it keeps me true to myself, strengthens my resolve to do God’s will ,providing an objective guide through His holy grace , and hands me the only moral compass which ever points to True North.

So let’s put the *stuff with the weird odor * that’s been showing up aside for just a minute and instead, look at someone truly Catholic who has been a victim of homosexuality. Let’s put a Catholic face on this. It takes a lot of guts to be as candid as he is. And he is presenting us with an opportunity of seeing how one Catholic - who is not being denied his right to seek treatment, struggles interiorly.

Two excerpts follow from David Kupelian’s How ‘gay rights’ is being sold to America follow.

For anyone who isn’t quite sure how the homosexual militants been able to manipulate everyone this far , the entire piece is most informative .

Excerpt : 1 of 2 ; HOW ‘GAY RIGHTS’ IS BEING SOLD TO AMERICA

“I did not choose to be homosexual. I would change my sexual orientation if that were within my power.”

So confessed Robert Bauman, the powerful conservative congressman from Maryland. Americans were stunned in 1980 when headlines revealed Bauman had been caught red-handed having a sexual rendezvous with a young male prostitute. In his book “The Gentleman from Maryland: The Conscience of a Gay Conservative,” Bauman revealed the conditions that shaped his own tortured double life as a pro-family Republican congressman and closet homosexual.

At the tender age of five, Bauman had been sexually seduced by a twelve-year-old neighbor. Reflecting on that pivotal experience, as well as subsequent similar episodes, Bauman described the powerful feelings he found welling up within him at a young age:

This was not a matter of chance attraction to a forbidden object. This was a frightening force from deep within my being, an involuntary reaction to the sight, smell, and feel of other boys. I neither understood nor accepted it. And I came to hate myself because of the presence within me of this horrible weakness, this uncleanness of spirit over which I seemed to have no control. …

. . . He described the wrenching emotional aftermath he experienced after every episode: “Each time I would feel great guilt and head for Saturday confession at St. Peter’s or St. Joseph’s on Capitol Hill so I could make amends with God and be in the state of grace for Sunday Communion. I would always vow to myself and God I would never do it again.”

Submerging himself “in the excitement of politics where compliments, victories and deference helped reassure me I was a good person,” Bauman looked every bit the quintessential conservative, family-values congressman. “If I could save the world,” he later mused, “I might avoid having to save myself.”

. . . Still, one wonders how the press could allow itself to be used in such a blatantly propagandistic way and in pursuit of such a subversive agenda. And make no mistake, the “gay rights” agenda, which includes indoctrinating kindergartners with pro-homosexual propaganda and legalizing same-sex marriage, is extraordinarily subversive to America’s foundational values and institutions.