Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members [CWN]

[gilliam]

Since it was their decision she could have taken the matter to National. Do you have any information about whether she exhausted her remedies before playing the public relations game?

She did and national said it was within policy and supported the council action

Welcome to the real world

 

[mitex]

Cat I’m sorry if me saying “I have a homosexual orientation” in public bothers you. And I’m celibate so I’m def not promoting it. But many Eagle Scouts like me supported this as a good thing. If you have a problem with the BSA decision then don’t support them.

As for me I’m with the Catholic Committee on Scouting, and the Bishops who did support this and my Church (Methodist) which is traditional on sexuality but supported the repeal.

Just because someone publicly discloses same-sex attraction does not mean they are “openly promoting” it.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Cat I’m sorry if me saying “I have a homosexual orientation” in public bothers you. And I’m celibate so I’m def not promoting it. But many Eagle Scouts like me supported this as a good thing. If you have a problem with the BSA decision then don’t support them.

As for me I’m with the Catholic Committee on Scouting, and the Bishops who did support this and my Church (Methodist) which is traditional on sexuality but supported the repeal.

Just because someone publicly discloses same-sex attraction does not mean they are “openly promoting” it.

If you think I’d be offended just by that, I’m not sure you’ve been reading my posts and you definitely haven’t read the Vatican document.

 

[Cat_Herder]

She did and national said it was within policy and supported the council action

Welcome to the real world

Then either National wasn’t following their own policy (entirely possible, as they are basically failed leaders) or she was doing more than what you have been told.

 

[FAB]

The Southern Baptist are dissociating themselves with the Boy Scouts of America based on the decision of the Scouts to allow in openly gay boys. They did so today at their Houston Convention

The decision of the Southern Baptist is regrettable, and In light of questions that may arise from our faithful concerning the Catholic response, and the Scout units we sponsor, we need to turn and remind ourselves of our teaching in our Catechism. section 2358

Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. (2333)
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. **They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.**2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. (2347)

 

[JimG]

The Southern Baptist are dissociating themselves with the Boy Scouts of America based on the decision of the Scouts to allow in openly gay boys. They did so today at their Houston Convention

The decision of the Southern Baptist is regrettable, and In light of questions that may arise from our faithful concerning the Catholic response, and the Scout units we sponsor, we need to turn and remind ourselves of our teaching in our Catechism. section 2358

Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. (2333)
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. **They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.**2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. (2347)

One must of course keep both of these paragraphs in mind.

 

[Ruthie_again]

Well said, Mitex!

CatHerder, I read the first 3 or 4 of your examples listed in your profile. I found nothing that indicates that the Boy Scouts are promoting the gay lifestyle. What they have done is to prevent discrimination against boys who identify as homosexuals.

The Catechism says,(As usual, I have bolded some parts.)

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 … “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” … Under no circumstances can [homosexual acts] be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Cat Herder,“They must be accepted”. We can give them “the support of disinterested friendship”. We can, and should pray for them. We should be standing with Jesus:

And the Pharisees and their scribes murmured against his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Lk 5:30-32

And look at the first sentence of #2359; Mitex has answered that call. Personally, I want boys like him in the Scouts and in the Church, to counteract the “culture of death” that tells all of us, hetero- and homosexual, that to fornicate our brains out is the best way to live. We need men like Mitex.

What it adds up to is two good examples: welcome (and praise!) boys like Mitex; eject boys and men that promote the “gay lifestyle.”

I suspect that the decline in Scouting in Canada has more to do with their promotion of chastity (and other good behavior) than it does with homosexuals. Unfortunately, various rudenesses are so common among the young… don’t get me started! (You kids get off my lawn!)

 

[Cat_Herder]

Well said, Mitex!

CatHerder, I read the first 3 or 4 of your examples listed in your profile. I found nothing that indicates that the Boy Scouts are promoting the gay lifestyle.

Then you didn’t read the CDF document.

1. The letter recalls that the CDF’s “Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics” of 1975 “took note of the distinction commonly drawn between the homosexual condition or tendency and individual homosexual actions”; the latter are “intrinsically disordered” and “in no case to be approved of” (no. 3).
2. … “Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered towards an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.

Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed towards those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not” (no. 3).

…

1. In reference to the homosexual movement, the letter states: “One tactic used is to protest that any and all criticism of or reservations about homosexual people, their activity and lifestyle, are simply diverse forms of unjust discrimination” (no. 9).

5. “There is an effort in some countries to manipulate the Church by gaining the often well-intentioned support of her pastors with a view to changing civil statutes and laws. This is done in order to conform to these pressure groups’ concept that homosexuality is at least a completely harmless, if not an entirely good, thing. Even when the practice of homosexuality may seriously threaten the lives and well-being of a large number of people, its advocates remain undeterred and refuse to consider the magnitude of the risks involved” (no. 9).

…
the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase” (no. 10).

1. “What is at all costs to be avoided is the unfounded and demeaning assumption that the sexual behavior of homosexual persons is always and totally compulsive and therefore inculpable. What is essential is that the fundamental liberty which characterizes the human person and gives him his dignity be recognized as belonging to the homosexual person as well” (no. 11).
   …
   **10. “Sexual orientation” does not constitute a quality comparable to race, ethnic background, etc. in respect to non-discrimination. Unlike these, homosexual orientation is an objective disorder (cf. Letter, no. 3) and evokes moral concern.
2. There are areas in which it is not unjust discrimination to take sexual orientation into account, for example, in the placement of children for adoption or foster care, in employment of teachers or athletic coaches, and in military recruitment.**

That’s not an “example,” and you aren’t arguing with some guy calling himself Cat Herder. You do realize who the prefect of that congregation was at the time, correct?

What they have done is to prevent discrimination against boys who identify as homosexuals.

No, what they have done is to require same sex attraction to be presented as normal by youth in leadership positions, when it is actually disordered. (Yes, yes, something that is disordered is not sinful unless it’s consented to. But you can’t consent to it if it isn’t presented to you. And that’s why paragraph 11 says what it does.

The Catechism says…

It says no “unjust discrimination.” The CDF, headed by the Pope Emeritus who helped WRITE that Catechism, said:

There are areas in which it is not unjust discrimination to take sexual orientation into account, for example, in the placement of children for adoption or foster care, in employment of teachers or athletic coaches, and in military recruitment.

And look at the first sentence of #2359; Mitex has answered that call. Personally, I want boys like him in the Scouts and in the Church, to counteract the “culture of death” that tells all of us, hetero- and homosexual, that to fornicate our brains out is the best way to live. We need men like Mitex.

Yes, we need men like Mitex, but NOT teaching young impressionable children that SSA is normal, whether by word or deed. The policy as adopted will allow openly gay youth to have troop leadership and mentoring positions. That is the problem… well, one of them. The near occasion of sin is another.

What it adds up to is two good examples: welcome (and praise!) boys like Mitex; eject boys and men that promote the “gay lifestyle.”

Yes, but also eject those who openly present their SSA as normal and therefore promote the gay lifestyle. If they keep their SSA to themselves then they are to be treated just like everyone else. That was the former policy, and it was fine; if National wasn’t following it and was unjustly firing people, then fire the National persons responsible! Fix the problem, don’t make a new one…

 

[Cat_Herder]

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has said:

There are areas in which it is not unjust discrimination to take sexual orientation into account, for example, in the placement of children for adoption or foster care, in employment of teachers or athletic coaches, and in military recruitment.

The Southern Baptists are right.

 

[mitex]

Cat then stop supporting the scouts. The decision has already been made. And the main Catholic bodies involved with scouting support it.

You are one interpretation of Church teaching; and that doesn’t necessarily mean your interpretation is right. No offense but I’m going to go off what the Catholic committee of scouting and the Bishops said.

Along with the resolution that 60% of the delegates approved. This and the fact that Mormons and Methodists both traditional on sexuality approved this as well.

If you don’t agree with the resolution don’t support the scouts. They’re a private organization and they can set their membership standards. If you disagree then don’t support them.

Me I support them because I agree with what the resolution states. Which is that same-sex attraction cannot be used in itself to bar membership even if someone is open about it. Besides it stated that any sexual or political activity was inappropriate.

BSA is not a Catholic organization and there are other Churches and faiths involved that have different traditional interpretations on sexuality. You can’t impose Catholic teachings onto an entire organization many of whom are not Catholic.

And while Catholic scouts must follow their faith teachings other Scouts must follow theirs. Not Catholic. If you feel BSA has violated these teachings don’t support them.

I’m open about my SSA and I’m celibate. And I don’t support a gay lifestyle. You make no sense saying every person with SSA must suffer in silence. How on Earth is anyone going to get support for it then.

 

[markomalley]

The Southern Baptist are dissociating themselves with the Boy Scouts of America based on the decision of the Scouts to allow in openly gay boys. They did so today at their Houston Convention

The decision of the Southern Baptist is regrettable, and In light of questions that may arise from our faithful concerning the Catholic response, and the Scout units we sponsor, we need to turn and remind ourselves of our teaching in our Catechism. section 2358

Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. (2333)
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. **They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition
.**2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. (2347)

People who highlight that particular portion of the passage seem to never notice a couple of things:

This inclination, which is objectively disordered

The inclination of having being sexually attracted to members of the same sex is objectively disordered. It is not normal. It is not oriented toward the natural law. If the inclination is acted upon, it is guaranteed to result in actions that are gravely depraved.

In other words, those who would like us to believe that people who are afflicted with homosexual inclination are perfectly OK, as long as they remain celibate, are plain wrong. The CCC does not teach that. Only the most strained exercise in selective reading can result in that conclusion.

unjust discrimination: does it say all discrimination? No it doesn’t. It just says that every sign of unjust discrimination must be avoided. So it is important to understand what it means by unjust. The CDF pointed some very good guidance out for what does and does not qualify as unjust back in 1992. Since it has been extracted elsewhere in this thread, I’ll just give a link and leave it at that.

Bottom line is that you need to read that extract of the CCC a bit more carefully.

 

[mitex]

I’m not Catholic, and as such I don’t follow that teaching. Not should it be imposed on me or an entire organization

What I recognize is that homosexual acts alone are sinful. So I remain celibate.

Not everyone in BSA is Catholic. The largest number of scouts actually comes from Mormons who teach the same thing the Methodist Church teaches that only homosexual acts alone are sinful.

Not the orientation (or as Catholics call it “inclination.”

BSA is not a Catholic organization and there are other Churches and faiths involved that have different traditional interpretations on sexuality. You can’t impose Catholic teachings onto an entire organization many of whom are not Catholic.

If you feel BSA has strayed then don’t support them. But you can’t ignore the fact Catholic bodies supporting scouting said the change was okay.

And while Catholic scouts must follow their faith teachings other Scouts must follow theirs. Not Catholic. If you feel BSA has violated these teachings don’t support them.

 

[Brendan]

. The largest number of scouts actually comes from Mormons who teach the same thing the Methodist Church teaches that only homosexual acts alone are sinful.

Not the orientation (or as Catholics call it “inclination.”

FYI, that is what the Catholic Church teaches.

The inclination itself is a moral disorder, but it is only when one gives into the temptation that one sins.

Sin always involves an act of the will.

 

[dcs]

Then if we want an alternative Scouting program we need to change venue and start lobbying NFCYM. Camp Fire is coed, so there’s nothing preventing NFCYM from sponsoring another dual gender/split for activity program like FNE or a boys program like Fraternus.

Full disclosure – I’m a member of FNE.

Recognition is nice but I’m not sure what an organization like FNE would gain from an association with NFCYM. The Catholic Faith is already integrated into our programs so the religious awards offered by NFCYM would be superfluous.

 

[BroomWagon]

NOT YOUR FATHER’S AMERICA

Are Boy Scouts buying ‘gay child’ myth?

Exclusive: Linda Harvey urges parents to stand up for kids, resist assault on decency

The Boy Scout leadership has just done what homosexual pressure groups have tried to do for 20 years. They’ve made respectable the monstrous notion of the “gay” child or teen.

Congratulations on advancing the sexual anarchist agenda and drawing countless numbers of children into sin. What will these leaders say to Jesus when they meet Him?

wnd.com/2013/04/are-boy-scouts-buying-gay-child-myth/

Caught some Relevant Catholic Radio today, wrote down the name of the website of one person interviewed, I think it could be this person:

childhealing.com

This doctor was indeed claiming he’s treated cases of people overcoming SSA.

 

[mitex]

Linda Harvey isn’t exactly the model for a compassionate response to homosexual inclinations in teens… And many traditional Christians will agree on that principle.

Look the bottom line is many of you are ignoring what was in the resolution along with that the Catholic Committee on Scouting backed by several Bishops said this change was not in conflict with Church teaching.

The resolution stated this:

AND WHEREAS, Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting; and

WHEREAS, the Boy Scouts of America does not have an agenda on the matter of sexual orientation, and resolving this complex issue is not the role of the organization, nor may any member use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda; and

And for those of you wanting to exclude people with SSA like me (from BSA or anything) think again. I am the exact kind of person Jesus worked to include when the Pharisees and through all their legalism wanted to exclude:

Jesus included people in his ministry who were considered unclean. BSA is including people who are vulnerable and in need of a moral development program.

And as he sat at dinner in Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were also sitting with Jesus and his disciples—for there were many who followed him. When the scribes of the Pharisees saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors, they said to his disciples, “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” When Jesus heard this, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.” (Mark 2:15-17, NRSV) -

A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. 38 As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.”

40 Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.”

“Tell me, teacher,” he said.

41 “Two people owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[a] and the other fifty. 42 Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?”

43 Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.”

“You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.

44 Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”

48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

I can’t think of a better program for teens with SSA that will teach moral values and abstinence.

 

[gracepoole]

This doctor was indeed claiming he’s treated cases of people overcoming SSA.

Is this where we’re at? By including his comment and source, are you claiming that gays and lesbians can and should be “reverted”?

 

[BroomWagon]

Is this where we’re at? By including his comment and source, are you claiming that gays and lesbians can and should be “reverted”?

Why not? Are you a Doctor?

 

[CopticChristian]

Is this where we’re at? By including his comment and source, are you claiming that gays and lesbians can and should be “reverted”?

Only if they are motivated to do so like this guy…

narth.com/docs/journalist.html

BBC journalist David Akinsanya has lived as a gay male for the past 24 years, but he has gone on a quest to become straight. He is tired of the gay lifestyle and wants to settle down with a wife and have children, but so far his quest has not been successful.

She had me in secret and, hours after I was born, I was taken from the hospital to the children’s home. I don’t believe that I was necessarily born gay - I think it’s more likely to be something I learnt growing up in that strange environment. It wasn’t desperately unhappy, but it certainly wasn’t a normal childhood. We were cared for by one very dominating woman and I’m aware some studies show a link between a matriarchal mother figure and homosexuality.

“My first sexual experiences also took place in that house - usually playing doctors and nurses with older boys. Also, I idolised my father, a university lecturer. His visits were irregular and when I knew he was coming, I would sit on the front doorstep waiting for him. As a result, I believe I grew up craving male attention.”

 

[mitex]

Isn’t sexual orientation change off topic? Shouldn’t another thread be started on that subject?

I mean yes we are talking about homosexuality. But we should be discussing how it applies to the change of BSA policy.

Sexual orientation change would steer this thread in a different direction. It would be best to start a new thread on that issue.